My dog (GSP) wont point. What do I do?

[Robjones]

I have a 6 month old dog that wont point a wing or a bird. She loves birds but never locks up she goes on in. How do I get her to stop and lock.

[Karen]

She's still a baby and some mature faster than others. Just be patient and keep exposing her to game birds. It'll come in time.

[RSNK61]

Get rid of the wing and like the previous post keep exposing to live birds. She will learn she can't catch them and then the instinct to point will come.

[Robjones]

Thanks for the last reply. I tried a pen raised bird yesterday and she went right in I pulled her back to keep her from catching it. She did not lock. I then had my son take the bird away and she went nuts wanting to chase but I held her at my side for a while and went home.

[Karen]

Have you fired your gun around her yet? Now might be the time to take advantage of her propensity to chase and introduce her to the gun while in full chase. Just an idea.

[Robjones]

I fired yesterday 2 times and she was perfectly fine it was like she never heard it.

What is your ideas on retrieving birds and whoaing . She will retrieve bumpers but will only do it a few times and then she wants to stop. She will whoa but I often have to correct her as she wants to sit down when I say whoa. I should not of taught her to sit first!

[Don]

I fired yesterday 2 times and she was perfectly fine it was like she never heard it.

What is your ideas on retrieving birds and whoaing . She will retrieve bumpers but will only do it a few times and then she wants to stop. She will whoa but I often have to correct her as she wants to sit down when I say whoa. I should not of taught her to sit first!

You really need to get your dog running on wild birds and forget the rest right now. Your dealing with a puppy. Why would you be using birds for retrieveing at this point? All you'd doing is convincing it to try harder to catch a bird.

How did you teach whoa? If you have her on a check cord and she sit's, just raise up the cord maybe head high and pull gently but constently till she get's up. As soon as she's up, immediately drop your arm and whoa her again. Don't go to her and don't touch her. In order for her to move forward from a sit, she will have to pick up her butt. When she does then immediately release the pressure and whoa her again. do it as many times as necessary. Once she stays standing, don't make her stand there long. Just a coulpe moment's and move her. Once you have her stopping and standing, then you can start increasing the time she's stopped.

Most people will disagree with me but I doubt that teaching sit had anything to do with this. She simply doesn't know what you want and is taking a safe position.

[Robjones]

You guys are all great and I really appreciate the replys- I once had a trainer named Jim Batson (deceased) who I got my first dog from tell me to not teach sit first as it is hard to teach whoa. Does anyone remember Jim.
I introduced retrieving dead birds because that is what the trainer I got my dog from said to do. I am starting to believe he is full of xxxx.

[Karen]

If she wants to retrieve 3 times, only throw the bumper twice. Always leave her wanting more. I have 2 dogs that will retrieve until they drop, and 2 that look at you, look at the bumper, look at you, look at the bumper...then walk away like retrieving is below them. If I was to hunt over those two, they'd need to be force broke to retrieve.

We don't teach sit or whoa to the competition dogs (I know, I know....no whoa sounds weird to many of you). Whoa'ing is all part of steadying to wing/flush/shot and is incorprated in that silently in the training program I follow.

If, during the breaking process, your girl sits on point, that can be fixed (pressure will have her sitting...pressure can bring her back up on her feet), but because she's young and seems a little soft, I'd probably back off on the formal yard work lessons for now and just let her gain her confidence.

[dogirl]

Most people will disagree with me but I doubt that teaching sit had anything to do with this. She simply doesn't know what you want and is taking a safe position.

Don,

I agree with you 100%. Sit was one of the first things I taught my dog at 8 weeks. i never had any trouble teaching her WHOA and she has never sat down on WHOA.

dogirl

[Robjones]

At what age should I be concerned that the dog is not locking up and pointing? How many wild birds? My previous dog would always lock up on wings in grass from 10 weeks old.

[bfd_dan]

I helped train a similar dog (this wasn't a GSP) but she would chase and chase and chase. We took several remote launchers out in a field with a ton of birds (GOOD FLYING BIRDS). The guy would take the dog and work up to one bird/launcher, the second she would turn or react to the smell of bird, we would pop the launcher and she would chase, let her run like crazy for a few minutes, and work her on the next launcher (mean while the first launcher was reloaded with a bird). When she hit the next launcher poped the bird and she chased, got her back and went back to the other launcher kept repeating this till she realized she couldn't catch the bird, and started pointing.

[WildRose]

Rob you've gotten some good advice. The best thing you can do is get your dog out into wild birds as often as possible the first year. That will take care of a lot of frustrations in training. Dogs just don't catch wild birds and so it brings out the pointing instinct and sharpens it without putting any pressure on the dog.

Remember she is a baby and needs time to balance her enthusiasm and drive with pointing and self discipline. CR

[dogirl]

I can tell you that I did not introduce my dog to birds until she was 6 months. She barked at the bird the first few times and didn't point until about 8-9 months.

Now she is a bird nut and very solid on point. I really think it is individual. If its in the genes, then exsposure is all you need.

My friends Gordon seemed to take forever to point, but she has a nice point now too. We introduced her to birds at 12 weeks. She is 14 months now.

I would just have fun with her and not get too freaked.

[Robjones]

You guys have all been great! I will get back to all of you when I see some changes. But one last question at what point do I introduce retrieving dead birds? Should she be retrieving dead birds her first season or should my goal to have her retreive dead birds by second season? Or some time during the first season?

[dogirl]

I can't help you with that one. I haven't even used dead birds yet. Just bumpers.

I am working on building my dog's retreive drive so everything is still "fun" retreives.

I am also in the process of teaching her "hold" and getting her steady to wing, shot, and fall.

I plan on focusing on a formal retreive once my dog is steady.

[Robjones]

My last dog was excellent hunter except she would only retreive quail and one time she retrieved a pheasant off of a frozen pond other wise she would find them and we would have to go take them from her. I tried to force break her to retreve but she would retrieve a tennis ball for hours but not a pheasant.

[bobman]

dont over train a pup let it hunt this year and dont worry about retrieveing, whoa or any of that.

Hunting season is upon us this is the best time of year for hunters to expose pups to game and let them figure out things on there own. Other than basic obedience I dont train anything to my pups until they have a good season of wild birds shot over them.

Next spring and summer you can work on retrieveing and whoa.

If you try to over train or speed train apup you can end up with a overly cautious confused pup, pointing breeds need to feel like they can go out and find bird without worring that they are going to get some correction.

I've had shorthairs since the late 60's all my life really, lots of them, and everyone did just fine, if I shut up and got out of their way so they could learn.

Take the dog hunting, it will begin to point on its own and if it didn't there is nothing you could do about it they either have it in them or they dont you dont train a dog to point.

Good luck, the dog will be fine.

[Robjones]

Thank you to all! I have a ton of great information I will let you all know what happens. Once again thanks to all. If anyone else has anything to add please fill free to tell me.

[RSNK61]

I wouldn't concern myself right now with retrieving birds. She needs to learn she can't catch them. Like a post before use the launchers let her chase have fun and be a pup. Once she starts pointing consistently then you can work on retrieving. Remember this is just a pup you have plenty of time to train. Let her run, explore learn for herself.

[Don]

I would not shoot any birds over a six mos old dog and I don't care how well it handles them. Next spring you'll have a 12 mos old dog thats had a season of bump and run and more importantly is mature or close to it. I wouldn't put a bird in a dogs mouth until I was ready to kill a bird for her.

When that is depends on the dog and what you expect from it. If your ok with steady to wing, when you get there, shoot a bird for it. If it doesn't go get it, you get it and play fetch with her a couple times, then go to the next bird.

[lvrgsp]

Robjones, I new Mr. Batson well he was a great trainer and a good friend a true gentleman to the trialing sport. He trialed a dog for me for a little while. Great advice here, wild birds if you have them are great.

Chip

[kninebirddog]

If the pup is retrieving stuff already

Go for wild birds and only shoot the ones that she is pointing do not shoot any that she didn't hold for if she caused the bird to go up do not shoot

then as for sit...Some of your softer dogs will resort to sit as stated as it is a safe possition

I like to teach my dogs that standing is a safe position by some whoa work at dinner time making them stand for their food before releasing them
then also teaching them when i touch them to stand still by what horse people call sacking out this is a method of hands on basically petting the dog all over back neck legs etc it is calming for them

[gonehuntin']

I'm going to give you a little different advice here. I like to make a versatile dog like a GSP birdy by letting it retrieve live birds and point live bird's both taught at the same time. I also like using pen raised bird's and launchers to train a pup and youngster. It's easier and the environment is controlled.

I'll hold the pup, much like Delmar Smith describes so it can't squirrel around, throw a clip wing pigeon or have someone do it for me, and command "fetch". Pup will be on a CC. When it gets the bird I'll reel it in. Now the pup is only retrieving to the word "fetch". At the same time I'll work pup into a launcher crosswind. If he doesn't point immediately when he hits the scent cone, I'll pop the bird, snub him up, pick him up and put him back on the spot he should have stopped on, hold him there, and tell him "whoa". Now pick him up, walk a few steps toward the car, put him down and heel him to the car, put another bird out, and do it again. It usually takes 3-4 birds to get him pointing. Next day work him on the retrieving. Now it's time to get him out in the field and let the wild bird's teach him the same thing you've been trying too.

I've always believed and will until I die, that's it's a dog actually handling a bird that really makes it birdy, especially a versatile dog. It's just an opinion, but I also think this is why more EP's don't care to retrieve; they've never been properly exposed and given the chance.

[Reech]

You guys have all been great! I will get back to all of you when I see some changes. But one last question at what point do I introduce retrieving dead birds? Should she be retrieving dead birds her first season or should my goal to have her retreive dead birds by second season? Or some time during the first season?

When I taught my pup to retrieve I never used dead birds. I taught my pup to retrieve using bumpers and squeaky toys. Just get down on the ground and tease the animal with the items and it will charge them up. All pups love to play she will get the idea and then toss the item.

One day you will be laying on the couch and she will suddenly drop the squeaky toy on your chest to play. Get ready to start spending 20 - 30 min a day then playing fetch. You can then incorporate the Whoa command with the fetch and start getting her steady on the toss and this will help her mark the item you threw.

She retrieves everything now. I can toss a remote on the floor and she will bring it back.


Hope this helps

Reech

[kninebirddog]

I tell people who buy my pups to Not use squeeky toys..primary reason is because of the sqeeking when chomped on causing a reward of squeek in fun..many dead birds will also squeek when squeezed in the same motion..thus a great potential of creating a hard mouthed dog

[TrueBlu Shorthairs]

What is the breeding of the dog?

I would tell you to find a good pro or amateur who can guide you at this point. If you do not have access to wild birds, hard flying pen birds, that she cannot catch, are the ticket. Put her on a checkcord, bring her downwind crosswind a good distance from the loosely planted/released birds and hold her up once she get scent. Don't jerk her, but easily hold her up. If she rips, let her chase only to the length of the checkcord. You don't want her catching birds. Catching will make her ripping worse. Keep holding her up, she should point after only a few birds.

I wouldn't mess with guns or retrieving anything but a bumper right now. Retrieving dead birds may make her problem worse. You need to get her pointing before moving to gun conditioning imho. If she finds how fun it is to chase, this may keep her from pointing also.

My first suggestion is to find a good pro and get some guidance.

[Reech]

I tell people who buy my pups to Not use squeeky toys..primary reason is because of the sqeeking when chomped on causing a reward of squeek in fun..many dead birds will also squeek when squeezed in the same motion..thus a great potential of creating a hard mouthed dog

I never thought of that, makes perfect sense. I guess I happen to be one of the lucky ones where this hasn't happened.

Reech

[gwgdog66]

Rob you've gotten some good advice. The best thing you can do is get your dog out into wild birds as often as possible the first year. That will take care of a lot of frustrations in training. Dogs just don't catch wild birds and so it brings out the pointing instinct and sharpens it without putting any pressure on the dog.

Remember she is a baby and needs time to balance her enthusiasm and drive with pointing and self discipline. CR

That is how I got my GSP to hold a point. She was 7 to 8 months old. After the second covy she flushed and chased, and chased and chased. She figured out that if she held the point, one of us would flush them, shoot a quail and she could get it, without running too far.

[Lab Man]

I have not read all the posts so if you already have gotten this advise I apologize. With my young pointing breeds prior to a year old I like to do what I call "Putting on the miles". We will go for long walks with the pup on a long lead. We will walk in the environment it will be hunting when it gets older. I will allow the pup to chase anything except deer. My goal in these long walks is to bring out the natural instincts in the pup. I want the pup to be chasing and tracking scent, pointing anything. I also hope the pup will bump or even point wild birds. Once I feel that the pups natural instincts are where they should be will start alot of bird work. I had a Brittany in training a few years back that would not point. We planted an excess of 30 to 40 birds before the light bulb turned on. If the pup pointed I would shoot the bird for the pup. If the pup ran in and attempted to catch the bird I would launch the bird and the pup would chase the bird away. Once this pups light bulb turned on she was a hunting and pointing fool. Take your time you have plenty of time to get this pup ready for hunting

[Robjones]

I have her fetching bumbers very well. She loves it. She can track and find a bird fast but will not show any sign of birdiness even when tracking but I knew where the bird had went so I knew she was following. She walks through the sent cone until she finds it. She will site point for just a little while if she is far away. If she is close she will go right in. I am at a loss is this common for a gsp to not point?

[Casper]

If it makes you feel any better this dog didnt start pointing birds until he was almost 2 years old and even then they were flash points. He went through 2 full seasons of hunting wild birds and both summers chasing quail and chukars. It takes as long as it takes. In this pic he is 3.

[Robjones]

Why do you think it took so long? My first gsp started pointing by smell at 7 weeks old.

[bobman]

Why do you think it took so long? My first gsp started pointing by smell at 7 weeks old.

Thats one of the mysteries of dogs, I've had them not point until their second year and others pointing as little pups.

[ezzy333]

Your goal should be to let her determine when she should retrieve. After a season if she isn't then you can worry about it.

Ezzy

[Robjones]

What do you mean I should let her decide when to retrieve?

[Robjones]

should I be walking her into the scent cone on a cc and telling her to whoa?

[bobman]

should I be walking her into the scent cone on a cc and telling her to whoa?

if you are talking good flying or wild birds,

no

let her point on her own, keep quiet, its an instinct that turns itself on thru bird contacts let it happen, it will

[Robjones]

Also what should I do if she flushes a bird when she obvously walks thru the cone and the bird was holding in the grass but she burrows down to get her. I would like to hunt this season and I dont see that many birds so I would like to shoot what I see.

[bobman]

Also what should I do if she flushes a bird when she obvously walks thru the cone and the bird was holding in the grass but she burrows down to get her. I would like to hunt this season and I dont see that many birds so I would like to shoot what I see.

If you are training this dog to hunt and not for field trials I would shoot every bird over it I can , it will learn to point on its own.

[Robjones]

so you are telling me I dont need to correct her if she flushes?
If she runs after the bird without me saying to fetch the bird what should I do?

[Buckeye_V]

Get some good flying quail or pigeons for this dog. Try not to overtrain it right now. If the dog bumps the bird and chases, call it off after a little while. Say nothing else. Go to another one. Repeat process. Once the dog figures out they cannot catch the bird, they should start to point. If this doesn't work, then you may need a recess from birds for a while.

Have you tried getting a copy of the perfect start? Great way to start dogs on birds!

[Robjones]

As you know I have been readying and asking questions daily on this site. Everyone has been alot of help! I now feel like I am at a stand still. I dont feel like I can start to fetch birds even though she fetches well because I still have not seen a full point and she does not hold on her own. I cant teach steady to flush. So I keep trying to just make her better at what she does know. We have been on lots of walks looking for birds but haven't found any. I will go hunting this weekend and we will see plenty of wild birds. She does love to chase and has a strong hunting instict so I know she will hunt. On Saturday What do I do if she chases that first bird? And if she doesnt point for a while what can I work on?

[bobman]

As you know I have been readying and asking questions daily on this site. Everyone has been alot of help! I now feel like I am at a stand still. I dont feel like I can start to fetch birds even though she fetches well because I still have not seen a full point and she does not hold on her own. I cant teach steady to flush. So I keep trying to just make her better at what she does know. We have been on lots of walks looking for birds but haven't found any. I will go hunting this weekend and we will see plenty of wild birds. She does love to chase and has a strong hunting instict so I know she will hunt. On Saturday What do I do if she chases that first bird? And if she doesnt point for a while what can I work on?

Shoot it and every bird you can over her, she will start to point when shes ready, the dogs only 6 months old if she reliably comes when shes called take her hunting. First year is fun time year let her develop the love of the hunt worry about finish next year.

Do not take her hunting in any situation where multiple guns are around, hunt with her alone just you and her.

Your dog is a baby and is doing what 99% of them do at her age.

Did you learn calculus in kindergarden

You are seriously over stressing about nothing.

Good luck.

The only you shooting over her is real important no multiple gun shots

[snips]

At this age I would not worry, I would only shoot a bird down if she decides to settle down and give you a point.

[Robjones]

What do you trainers do to encourage the point?

[snips]

We keep them on very good flying birds. At 6 mo you really do not need to worry.

[Don]

I would like to hunt this season and I dont see that many birds so I would like to shoot what I see.

Rob,

This is the number one reason why so many people have trouble with their dogs, they are in a hurry to kill birds or want to kill birds more than they want to see good dog work. Next summer, if you train, you'll pay for all the mistakes you make now. I disagree with shooting all you can. That premise assumes that the dog will teach itself. It may well, how long you willing to wait for that event?

Here's a basic truth. It sounds like your dog wants to point but hasn't a clue why! You have to show it why rather than wait for it to figure it out on it's own. The problem is compounded by the fact that you want to kill all you can because you don't see that many birds. Don't do it! You can manufacture a substitute bird in the form of pen raised or better yet pigeons, and, you can shoot all you want. Those birds can be so predictable they are boring but, they allow you to rule the situation, not some inconsiderate wild bird that only desires to live. There is no shortage of birds to shoot, even for yourself!

I suspect that either your relatively young or fairly new to hunting with a dog. I say that because of what you wrote that I quoted above. You really should wait on the pup to grow into a dog and confine it to happy timing this year. Then you should train your "dog" on your terms next summer. The first year is meaningless. You'll either get your pup to where you really have something to work with for the second year or, you'll teach it bad habit's that you'll spend next summer fixing. If that happens, you'll probably settle for less than you really want just because it's an improvement over what you had. Then you'll go another year accepting less than you want and the next summer problem solving yet again.

Give your pup the first year to be a pup and make it a dog. Then train the dog! That you won't regret.

[Robjones]

Most know my trainer got the dog pointing in less than a week. It needed birds! The wing was the root to my pointing problems.

[Robjones]

update- I got my dog back from Jonsey and we went to the field. Dave set out a bird and brought the dog in cross wind. He pointed from about 12 feet away from the bird. The dog was locked. Dave kicked up the bird and shot it. The dog went to the bird. As you know I had a gun shy dog that did not point. In 11 days Dave solved both problems.