Check cord question with my new EB

mossanimal · Post by **mossanimal** » Sun Dec 30, 2007 8:59 am

Hi there...

I have more issues on my morning walks with my spitfire EB.

I am now walking her on the country roads (not fields/woods) with a 20' long check cord. I am trying to keep it tension free therefore I have to run/jog to keep it that way. Should I lengthen the checkcord? Or just let her pull? I don't want her to get in the habit of pulling every time she's on a leash. I am thinking of getting a retractable leash and attaching that to her check cord giving her more range. But is she just going to get in the habit of leaving me in the dust when I hunt?? I don't mind running on my morning walks with her (I'm a runner)... but obviously I don't want her moving that fast when I hunt her. Granted... She won't move that fast in heavy cover...

Thanks again.... Scott

Post by **slistoe** » Sun Dec 30, 2007 9:22 am

Why are you holding the check cord?

mossanimal · Post by **mossanimal** » Sun Dec 30, 2007 9:30 am

I'm holding it because she ranges pretty far ahead and its a country road. Hardly any traffic at all... but if she gets to an intersection before me: Could be trouble. We have so much snow up here in Northern Wisconsin I can't walk her in the fields yet. So... I'm trying to have a safe walk with her... but still let her range ahead and get her hunting instinct going.

Thanks!

Post by **kninebirddog** » Sun Dec 30, 2007 9:43 am

You can mix it up a bit
Have thecheckcord for some excersise runs
then a regular leash and do some walking drills

it takes more energy for them to walk with you then it does for them to just do what they want

Think about it what makes you more tired paper work and concentrating or walking in the park

mossanimal · Post by **mossanimal** » Sun Dec 30, 2007 9:50 am

Yeah.... I definitely mix it up. I always start the walk with heeling exercises for about 5 minutes to let her know I'm the boss. Then I release her ('go!') and let her go to the end of the checkcord and do what she wants. But... Should I lengthen the checkcord? Is pulling okay? If I just let her go with the cord then she could range far enough to get into trouble. So... I run to keep up.

Post by **slistoe** » Sun Dec 30, 2007 10:25 am

Following a routine of heeling then releasing and running after her is not mixing it up.

She is learning nothing about hunting by walking/running down a country road 20 ft. in front of you with you anchored to the CC. Walk her around the block at home and she will get as much learning and exercise from it. Walking on the country road may be therapeutic for the owner however.

Obviously she can't move too fast for hunting. They can "hunt" at a flat out run. I prefer them to hunt that way. Trying to make a good dog become a lethargic one is counterproductive.

Pulling is very good exercise for the dog and they can easily learn when it is acceptable to pull and when not. Get a harness or very wide leather collar. Use a 4 ft. lead. Heel, release to pull with OK, Allright, whatever you want. Let them drag you. Call her back to heel and make her heel for a while. Throw in a sit or two, maybe a whoa. Heel some circles. Release her to pull for a while.

Pulling at the end of 20 ft. checkcord is not useful.

Running after your dog is good exercise for the owner. If you want your dog to accompany you when you run teach her to respect the end of the check cord - taught is good, tight is not, slack is not. You set the pace and the dog must respond with the appropriate tension. You are responsible for taking up the slack by gathering in the rope or letting it out - like playing a fish. The dog is responsible for not making it "tight".

If you want a hunting dog you will have to release her and let her hunt - sometime.

Don · Post by **Don** » Sun Dec 30, 2007 10:57 am

What's an EB?

mossanimal · Post by **mossanimal** » Sun Dec 30, 2007 10:59 am

Slistoe.... Thanks a lot for the comments.

Just a couple of things:

My 'country road' is my 'home block'. I live pretty far out. My fields are in 3-5 feet of snow so all I have is the dirt roads around where I live... for now.

Some clarification on some other things... Why is it okay for them to pull on a 4ft. lead... and not a 20 ft? Is it because there is too much slack to make corrections?

There are some places in my backwoods where the pines have protected from deep snow... I release her in this area completely... everyday.

So... its looking like I should consider the walks on my dirt roads to be mostly geared towards heeling and walking on a leash well... and only let her go completely when I can get in the woods??

Post by **slistoe** » Sun Dec 30, 2007 10:59 am

Epagneul Breton - Brittany

mossanimal · Post by **mossanimal** » Sun Dec 30, 2007 11:00 am

Sorry about that... I picked that up from this forum. Shes a French Brittany Spaniel.... Epaneul Breton.

Post by **slistoe** » Sun Dec 30, 2007 11:03 am

There is a bunch of training you want to do with the CC - come on command, turn to the front, steady on birds. You need the dog to be responsive to changes in tension on the CC, not leaning in to it. If the dog is pulling or "roading" it is getting muscle conditioning, it is not "learning" anything. There is nothing to be gained by pulling at a distance over pulling just in front. It is easier to teach the dogs to differentiate.

Don · Post by **Don** » Sun Dec 30, 2007 11:23 am

Alright. The only thing I could come up with was English Bulldog!

Is the walk for you or the dog? Sounds like the walk is for you as your on a road. You said you like to jog, teach it to heel at a jog. If it's for the dog, try to have a place where you can turn it loose on the cc. If what your doing is training, every time it reaches the end of the cord, give a command and change direction. Mix it up with here commands.

How old is this dog? I start pups out on a cc in the whelp box when I raised them. Now as soon as I get them. Pick them up and first thing they get is a cc. A puppy doesn't venture that far and it's a perfect time to get it used to turning in command, you can actually catch it! Your dog sounds older than that so do lots of yard work on turns and here. Yard work doesn't necessarily have to be in the yard but it needs to conform to a training regime within the limits of the 20' cc. So walking up the road could work as yard work, just don't go in a straight line.

If what you really want to do is go for a walk yourself, leave the dog home for now. You don't do it any favors letting it learn to drag you around. If that is the case, teach it heel at a walk and a jog before you take it with you. Guess I'm saying that you have to decide in your mind the purpose of the walk then do the dog accordingly.

mossanimal · Post by **mossanimal** » Sun Dec 30, 2007 11:41 am

Well.. Before I got the puppy, I've been running/walking with my wife and adult yellow lab every morning. So now I include our Britt (who is 14 weeks) on these walks. I guess I feel like I should train all the time... so I hope to teach her something on these walks. I spend time alone with her every afternoon when I get home from work. During this time I work her on heel, come and retrieving. Nothing serious. Just conditioning.

I get your point though. But I really feel like she needs a good run before I crate her and go to work. I suppose I should continue the walks.. but structure them more.

mossanimal · Post by **mossanimal** » Sun Dec 30, 2007 12:02 pm

Okay... I think one issue I have is my understanding of check cord training. I need some better info on how to train with checkcords. How long should I use? Do I always hold the end... etc? Any good resources??

Post by **slistoe** » Sun Dec 30, 2007 12:24 pm

You are much better at this than I am Don.

Don · Post by **Don** » Sun Dec 30, 2007 1:52 pm

20' is about right. Any longer and you get sag in the middle from the weight of the cord. It's generally kept off the ground while your holding it. Keep it fairly taunt so that commands can be followed immediately with a gentle tug. It should be made of 3/8th or 7/16 tight woven nylon and I like a hard core. As it gets dirty it should get stiffer. When the dog is running with it dragging, the stiffer cord will bounce away from stuff a limp, soft cord will whip around. It whips around and the dog can tie itself up. Melt the end away from the collar to keep it from unravelling and make sure it's smooth so it can't hook anything while the dog is running free.

To use the check cord in hand, first tie an overhand knot in the free end. That will work as a stop when the cord goes thru your hand and prevent the dog from pulling free. The cord is kept taunt by feeding it in and out thru one hand. The dog pulls out, you pull it back thru with the dog coming toward you, takes a bit of practice but fairly easy to do. If the dog is going out, you control how fast and how far by simply closing and loosening the hand your feeding thru. If the dogs coming in, don't try to coil the cord as it comes, simply throw it on the ground behind you. It will work very much like one of those reel leash's you spoke of but be much stronger. In addition if you teach whoa and use the post, the cord becomes a super tool.

I think it's one of the most miss understood and miss used training aides we have for it's nothing but a piece of rope. It has tied to it a snap and it needs be done right if you use the whoa post. It should be tied on with a bowline knot with a loop big enough so that on the dog, the cord can be pulled snug and with the dog looking at you, the knot will come up under the dogs chin, not past the mouth and not behind the jaw. That knot is used to bump the dog under the chin on whoa to get it to stop, it's the discipline part of the whoa post and done right, very gentle.

Keep in mind that the check cord is simply an extension of your arm.

Post by **slistoe** » Sun Dec 30, 2007 3:40 pm

Don you did miss the very important aspect of training with a CC - wear gloves.

Ruffshooter · Post by **Ruffshooter** » Sun Dec 30, 2007 4:25 pm

For the exercise, go get some snow shoes, go to the fields or woods. I am doing that now. whew! That will truly exersice the dog and you.

Don · Post by **Don** » Sun Dec 30, 2007 6:45 pm

slistoe wrote:Don you did miss the very important aspect of training with a CC - wear gloves.

I never think of that. I don't wear gloves much at all, for anything. But yes you wear gloves or risk rope burns.

MikeB · Post by **MikeB** » Sun Dec 30, 2007 10:21 pm

I realize my use of the CC as an obedience trainer differs from yours. But... Isn't the purpose of a check cord to have control of the pup/dog at a distance. I only use a check cord for training commands taught on a leash then at a distance.

How far out would you let a 14 wk pup range at this age, paying NO attention to the handler at the other end?

I would not drill heeling at this age either but would make the pup walk on lead at your left side and not learn to pull. A dog that walks in front of you leads the walk. No matter what breed you don't want to teach a puppy to ever lead the walk while on a leash.

Don · Post by **Don** » Sun Dec 30, 2007 10:31 pm

At 14 wks, my pup's have had the cc on for 6wks and they run as much as they want. I can take them anywhere I want to go without holding the cord.

Post by **slistoe** » Sun Dec 30, 2007 11:56 pm

MikeB wrote: How far out would you let a 14 wk pup range at this age, paying NO attention to the handler at the other end?

As far as he wants to go. Actually, at 14 weeks mine aren't wearing a check cord when running in the field. They are free to go where they want and explore where they want.

They pay a lot more attention to where the handler is than most folks would like to give them credit for. They don't want to be lost.

Post by **ezzy333** » Mon Dec 31, 2007 12:01 am

MikeB wrote:

How far out would you let a 14 wk pup range at this age, paying NO attention to the handler at the other end?

As far as he wants to go.

Right on! The purpose of the walks at that age is teaching independence as well as getting exercise. It is always interesting to watch them get the confidence to keep getting further away. I can remember Time getting a quarter mile away after a few weeks and seeing her chase the little bird in the field.

Ezzy

Post by **slistoe** » Mon Dec 31, 2007 1:30 am

ezzy333 wrote:
MikeB wrote:

How far out would you let a 14 wk pup range at this age, paying NO attention to the handler at the other end?

As far as he wants to go.

Right on! The purpose of the walks at that age is teaching independence as well as getting exercise. It is always interesting to watch them get the confidence to keep getting further away. I can remember Time getting a quarter mile away after a few weeks and seeing her chase the little bird in the field.

Ezzy

In addition to independence they need to learn confidence.

mossanimal · Post by **mossanimal** » Mon Dec 31, 2007 1:51 pm

Thanks to everybody for the advice.

Actually... The most helpful piece was the bit about snowshoes! I should have already started that... The pup seems to float over (or charge through) our snow anyway. Its me that sinks.

I'm still a little confused over what I should be doing at this stage (her being 14 weeks) with the check cord. But I figure if I'm working her out, giving her some independence out front, and teaching her to walk beside me without pulling, I'm making some progress. She 'comes to' VERY well, retrieves bird wings PRETTY well (I still have to intercept her has she tries to get by me... but at least she comes back in my general direction), finds dead birds that I've hidden in the brush, and charges ahead with no fear. I just can't wait until she shows some pointing instincts!!!

Happy New Year!

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Don · Post by **Don** » Mon Dec 31, 2007 2:25 pm

At 14wks I would have a check cord on. Your dog is still very dependent on you but starting to reach out some I'd guess. This is the best time, 8 wks on, to get them going in the right direction. My puppy cc is only 1/4" nylon and 10 to 15 feet, it grows with the pup. It's tied directly to the pup. Over hand knot in the end pulled tight and then that knot slipped thru another overhand knot which forms a loop around the pups neck. You should not have to chase a puppy to catch it. See if I can find a photo. Yes, squirt with his 8 wk cc, 10'.

At this young age it is easy to get within 10' of most any puppy and gently get the here command and turn commands started well. Now at 6mos both Squirt and Bodie run quite often without any cc and I can move them around wherever I want. They also come more than reasonably well. The plus to this is that when the real work starts, I already have control. I don't worry much about range. You'll take some of that out in the breaking process if you break, I do, but if it was there to start with it will be regained. As long as you don't break the desire it won't go anywhere. What you will end up with is desire that is controllable, reguardless of range. I had trouble with the few AA dogs I ran for althought they had the range, they handled like gun dogs and most the judges then didn't like to see that.

mossanimal · Post by **mossanimal** » Mon Dec 31, 2007 3:05 pm

I few of you mention training to turn with the check cord. What exercises do you recommend?

As of now.. since she 'comes to' so well, whenever I turn, I just say 'come' and then start turning.... and she follows.

Post by **kninebirddog** » Mon Dec 31, 2007 3:13 pm

You will have a few more weeks of basic young pup compliance then the pup will start to test parameters

http://www.gundogforum.com/index.php?page=gdfarticle19
http://www.gundogforum.com/index.php?page=gdfarticle21

there are some things we do to help shape a pup for future training

Don · Post by **Don** » Mon Dec 31, 2007 5:20 pm

Right! And when that happens your ten to fifteen foot arm extension re-defines its thought process. Then you only give the commands when you can get the cord, even if it's just to setp on it and turn the pup. The weeks prior to that have taught it to give to the cord rather than fight it. The pup will turn.

Pleasant Ridge · Post by **Pleasant Ridge** » Thu Jan 03, 2008 6:20 pm

I don't know if it has been mentioned but Delmar Smiths book "Best way to train a bird dog" is a great read. Also your pup should be wearing and dragging the cc around. I probably don't have the expertise that some do here, I have only had a few bird dogs in my life but I for one don't let a pup pull me on the cc for several reasons. One being when more intense training begins you do not need to be "fighting" with the pup, when the pup feels resistance from your end of the check cord it should know to respond to you, all this will come later when you are implementing the "here" and "whoa" training. #2 if the pup is constantly "pulling" as you describe its neck will get sore. #3 as the pup becomes older and stronger your wrists, elbows and shoulders will not take to the pulling very well..
In closing, I would let the pup be a pup around the yard and house, when the weather breaks put the cc on the pup and let it drag it around getting used to it while working it on birds... And the gloves thing is a super suggestion, you will soon see why.................

Don · Post by **Don** » Thu Jan 03, 2008 6:43 pm

You got the idea. I bought the Delmar book when it first came out and never bought another. That was a long time ago.

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