When to worry about being hard mouthed?

luke0927 · Post by **luke0927** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 7:14 am

I have been working the methodsin the PS/PF on my 7 month old GSP and my 1.5 year old male......It is a really great DVD and im taking things slow but both are doing well....My 7 month old seems ok actually she's kind of soft and will sometimes drop the birds. (this was me introducing her to the gun) My other dog however wants to bite the bird hard and try and eat it. I have switched to only frozen bird with him to try and make him not want to eat it as much....I just call him to me and squeeze his back and he will drop the bird. He also jumps at the bird and really wants it. I haven't wanted to turn him off so i haven't done anything execpted when he will jump i will jerck the CC down and say down. So do you not really worry about the hard mouth until you start hunting them or FF training them....any little things i can do in my daily yard training that i can start doing to make him not want to eat it?

Trekmoor · Post by **Trekmoor** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 7:37 am

I will be very interested to read the answers to this question since in Britain we regard hard mouth as both hereditary and incurable. I've read about all sorts of "cures" but I've yet to read of one that actually works!

Bill

--- "One toot and yer oot!!!" ---

Post by **Greg Jennings** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 7:41 am

Just a quick opinion: You really need to take the older dog off birds and go through FF. I don't think that you will be able to able to comprehensively address the hard-mouth till you do.

Don't try to rush, don't short-cut and do not interrupt the FF. It only leads to problems that make you start over and do it again later.

Take it from someone that made that mistake. I fell into the "my dog is a special case" trap. It just doesn't apply to FF.

Best, Greg J.

luke0927 · Post by **luke0927** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 10:45 am

Greg Jennings wrote:Just a quick opinion: You really need to take the older dog off birds and go through FF. I don't think that you will be able to able to comprehensively address the hard-mouth till you do.

Don't try to rush, don't short-cut and do not interrupt the FF. It only leads to problems that make you start over and do it again later.

Take it from someone that made that mistake. I fell into the "my dog is a special case" trap. It just doesn't apply to FF.

Best, Greg J.

Currently i am still working yard work you think its better to go to FF before i have him one birds in the field? I thought FF was usually last?

thanks for the help

Luke

Ruffshooter · Post by **Ruffshooter** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 12:35 pm

Luke:
At 1.5 years, I figure you have had your pup on pleanty of liberated and hopefully wild birds. If so then now is a good time for ff. If you are still using birds I am assuming you have not done your yard work or you are in advanced yard work. I am not familiar with the DVDs you are using.

This is my approach.

1) Basic obedience just to make life easy and safe. Controlled play retrieves on check cord. Wearing the ecollar (not turned on) each trip to the field to romp and chase. Lots of Socialation through the dogs life and certainly as a pup.
2) Get dog birdy and confident. (lots of bird exposure let him learn about birds. Intro to gun.)
3) Start and complete yard work with no birds involved. (Field commands and Manners)
4) Advanced yard work and transfer to field & or FF. No Bird retrieves in the field. Steadiness etc. all controlled on Check cord. No Bird retrieves during FF until each step is completed and true. (Depending on how much time I have and what my dog can handle training wise I do one or both.)

I feel the FF can be done before the Yard work is complete. On tough or stubborn dogs it can help you during the other training. You and the dog have a true physical and ( for lack of better term) emotional connection.
You will learn to read the dog better and the dog will learn to read you better. During FF the dog learn you are in controll and all birds are yours not his. Your dogs conficence will increase because he will understand what is expected of him. When you FF the dog they have a tendancy to not hard mouth because you are forcing them to do the work on your terms. You will not loose desire or drive from the dog. As stated before, don't skip steps, don't stop, complete the training.

Many of the folks on hear all are proffessionals and may have a different oppinion. They have the numbers to let you know if FF will correct the hardmouth behavior. It has worked on the few I have had that were that way.

luke0927 · Post by **luke0927** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 12:43 pm

Well basically im starting him a little later i was still in college and work full time when i first got him. When i first got him i ran him on some quail i bought and just worked him on basic obedieance....Now that i have finished school back in the summer (but now have a 6 month old son so its just as much time but at least ill have me a training helper soon) i have started working with him more, and hopefully by next hunting season i will have 2 reliable dogs to hunt with. Im in GA so finding wild birds is the bigest problem but i do have access to good flying pen birds and im workig on getting pigeions for when i start them more serious on birds.....

The DVDs i was mentioning were pefrect start perfect finish from
perfection kennels....

I think FF would help him is is sloppy with bumpers and doesnt' really care for them and gets disinterested in just playing fetch after a few throws he will drop it short, he's just sloppy with it....but if i play fetch wiht a frozen bird he loves it.

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 2:47 pm

Trekmoor wrote:I will be very interested to read the answers to this question since in Britain we regard hard mouth as both hereditary and incurable. I've read about all sorts of "cures" but I've yet to read of one that actually works!

Bill

--- "One toot and yer oot!!!" ---

If it's true hardmouth, we do here also.

Post by **ezzy333** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 3:35 pm

Hardmouth to me is the least of the things I worry about. Its always nice to have a dog with a soft mouth but it makes little difference in the hunting ability of a dog. I had a Brit that was real soft till a rooster run a broken wing bone through his cheek and he never delivered a live bird again. But he was still just as good a dog as he ever was.

Ezzy

Trekmoor · Post by **Trekmoor** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 3:45 pm

Hard mouth can be induced in a dog but the difficulty always is, how do you know as a puppy buyer if the dog used at stud or the dam is induced hard mouthed or hereditarily hard mouthed? Not all breeders are entirely honest about this which is why, unless I know and trust a breeder, I would not buy a pup from parents I did not know were soft mouthed. Until very recently in this country hard mouthed dogs never got to breed and not too long ago were likely to fill an early hole in the ground. This was before the H.P.R. breeds were introduced here in any numbers.

This was not applicable to pointers and setters since they were not usually expected to retrieve in this country. It applied very much to labradors, even in my lifetime a dog put out of a lab trial for hard mouth was never seen again - by anyone! It got no chance to breed its' like. A very hard way of looking at things but the old time dog breeders were more "practical " than we are today, culling stock that did not meet their requirements was common. I.M.O. it is thanks to this that we have the hunting and retrieving dogs we enjoy today.

I am still interested to know how F.F. can cure this problem . In Britain F.F. is not taught to gundogs, certainly not as a general rule anyway. I am not trying to preach here for I have taught F.F. myself to non- gundog breeds. My reasons for not teaching F.F. to gundogs are that I don't have to teach a well bred gundog to retrieve, the breeder has put into the pups all I need to work with. My other reason is that I have a niggling worry that F.F. could be used to train a dog with very weak retrieve instincts to retrieve. If this dog was then to do well in competitions it would be fairly heavily bred from and could very easily throw its like for some poor unsuspecting complete beginner to have to try to train.

I'm not against the use of F.F. but I am very wary of it, I know it works very well since I have trained a border collie that was a complete non-retriever to be a gundog - and he was pretty good at it! He was, by the way, soft mouthed. Was this due to the F.F. training? I don't know since prior to being taught F.F. he wouldn't retrieve anything.

So does F.F. cure induced hard mouth and if so, how ?

Bill

--- "One toot and yer oot !!!"---

Post by **ezzy333** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 4:26 pm

I am not trying to preach here for I have taught F.F. myself to non- gundog breeds. My reasons for not teaching F.F. to gundogs are that I don't have to teach a well bred gundog to retrieve, the breeder has put into the pups all I need to work with. My other reason is that I have a niggling worry that F.F. could be used to train a dog with very weak retrieve instincts to retrieve. If this dog was then to do well in competitions it would be fairly heavily bred from and could very easily throw its like for some poor unsuspecting complete beginner to have to try to train.

This expresses exactly my concern also. And I think you can see the evidence of this already. Between the FF and the lackof retrieving in many trials has hurt our dogs and the damage will continue till we get back to breeding it rather than training it. It just another quality that should eliminate the dog from being bred.

Ezzy

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 4:45 pm

Trekmoor; It is felt by most trainers and that certainly includes me, that if a dog is truly hardmouthed or a freezer, that fault cannot be cured, only partially controlled.

The thinking on force fetch in the US. is that it is not used to disguise a fault, it is used to condition a dog to training that it will recieve later. It basically sets the stage for how and dog will accept training during it's lifetime. By force training a dog, you increase the strength of the foundation upon which that dog is built. It gives you and additional tool to use later on with the dog should a problem ever develop.

I think that the better and more advanced trainers in this country try to build a dog with as complete a foundation as possible. In the world of the pointing dog, that program is still in a state of evolution. Retriever trainers have had it figured out for 70 years or close to it. Our electric collar programs were born in the 60's with Rex Carr.

So yes, as with many things in training, force can be used to disguise a problem. Sort of. You will never, ever, take a dog that hates retrieving or hates birds and make a reliable bird dog out of him. He'll blink the birds every chance he gets. Force fetch is designed to polish a retrieve. Americans feel that to go out and pick up the bird is instinctual. To bring it back and deliver it nicely to hand is training.

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 4:49 pm

Back to Luke. Luke, think about this and evaluate it carefully: Is your older dog trying to eat the bird or is he very loose mouthed and just mouthing it and pulling feathers from it? They are two very different things. Does he kill a live bird and eat it?

With the youngster, take a couple of pigeons and clip one wing of each bird. Rubber band the bird's feet together. Hold the pup and throw the bird. Let him watch it flop around, then turn him loose. What does he do? Do the flopping wings scare him? Does he case it and pick it up or chase it and not pick it up?

Clip wings are the greatest thing in the world to build a dog's retrieving desire. Try it and see what happens.

luke0927 · Post by **luke0927** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 5:36 pm

gonehuntin' wrote:Back to Luke. Luke, think about this and evaluate it carefully: Is your older dog trying to eat the bird or is he very loose mouthed and just mouthing it and pulling feathers from it? They are two very different things. Does he kill a live bird and eat it?

With the youngster, take a couple of pigeons and clip one wing of each bird. Rubber band the bird's feet together. Hold the pup and throw the bird. Let him watch it flop around, then turn him loose. What does he do? Do the flopping wings scare him? Does he case it and pick it up or chase it and not pick it up?

Clip wings are the greatest thing in the world to build a dog's retrieving desire. Try it and see what happens.

The older dog wants to eat it but does not try and keep it from me he will grab the bird and just chew it while bringing it to me then i can take it from him......(this maybe my fault before i found this site and when he was younger i had some poor flying quail and he caught a few.....)

one the younger dog when i first intro her to bird i did exactly what you were saying but it was with a quail she holds it and brings it to me. The younger dog to me does great i used a wing locked bird the other day while shooting a blank and throwing the bird and the dog got the bird and was very nice with it. i was able to use the bird as much as i wanted...she didn't tear it up at all.

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 6:02 pm

luke0927 wrote:
The older dog wants to eat it but does not try and keep it from me he will grab the bird and just chew it while bringing it to me then i can take it from him......(this maybe my fault before i found this site and when he was younger i had some poor flying quail and he caught a few.....)

Luke, this is important for me to understand so let me ask one more time: Is he really eating the bird? Does he kill the bird on the way in and physically tear that bird apart and eat it? Or is he just continually working his jaws on it?

One problem can be cured, the other not. It is generally felt that a bird eater can never be cured, only controlled. I have seen a lot of dog's with mouth problems, but few that are true bird eaters.

Post by **kninebirddog** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 7:37 pm

Mouthing isn't good ..and many pups go from mouthing a bird and getting played with which slowly leads to harder and harder mouth
also Hard mouth is a pup or dog claiming the object as theirs

Sharon potters traned retrieve seminar start with sacking a dog out having a dog give the entire body to you. Legs touching everywhere including the mouth...when the dog is relaxed to being handled touched including the mouth then objects are introduced with no forced pressure the start is teaching a dog proper mouthing and rolling or chomping is popped under the chin to stop when holding properly then the object is then asked for a release

then when you ahve the dog even moving around with different object then the actual force fetch begins

snips · Post by **snips** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 7:42 pm

Luke, sometimes the more you throw birds for a dog to retrieve, the ruffer they want to get with it. Once the bird gets wet with slobber it tends to make some dogs munch. My advice is stop messing with him on thrown birds. Have you shot a bird for him? FF can fix hard mouth, and I have used the ecollar to fix it also, but you have to know what you are doing.

Post by **Greg Jennings** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 7:54 pm

Luke,

You've had a lot of advice from people a lot more experienced than I am...

But, I'll say it's pretty obvious that letting the dog continue to retrieve will only make the problem worse.

I think that getting the dog with someone that is really experienced with FF will be the right thing. Having said that, everything that I've heard, confirmed by my limited experience, is that when you're doing FF, you do FF and not continue trying to steady the dog.

I FFed my Vizsla myself. I screwed it up pretty badly by skipping steps, etc.

What I can say, is that FF gave me the tool that I needed to address the problem that the dog had, which was killing and picking at ducks ...and only ducks... He'd always been totally natural with quail. Dogs, go figure.

He's a good sort and he came out of even my screwed up FF loving retrieving. About every night he initiates fetch play with me just for the fun of it.

Bottom line: I will always FF from here on out...after the dog has shown its natural retrieving genetics...because it gives one the tools to nip certain induced problems in the bud.

Best regards, Greg J.

luke0927 · Post by **luke0927** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 8:03 pm

gonehuntin' wrote:
luke0927 wrote:
The older dog wants to eat it but does not try and keep it from me he will grab the bird and just chew it while bringing it to me then i can take it from him......(this maybe my fault before i found this site and when he was younger i had some poor flying quail and he caught a few.....)
Luke, this is important for me to understand so let me ask one more time: Is he really eating the bird? Does he kill the bird on the way in and physically tear that bird apart and eat it? Or is he just continually working his jaws on it?

One problem can be cured, the other not. It is generally felt that a bird eater can never be cured, only controlled. I have seen a lot of dog's with mouth problems, but few that are true bird eaters.

continually working the jaws on it chewing it i guess he's not truly eating it.

luke0927 · Post by **luke0927** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 8:35 pm

snips wrote:Luke, sometimes the more you throw birds for a dog to retrieve, the ruffer they want to get with it. Once the bird gets wet with slobber it tends to make some dogs munch. My advice is stop messing with him on thrown birds. Have you shot a bird for him? FF can fix hard mouth, and I have used the ecollar to fix it also, but you have to know what you are doing.

I have shot a few bird over him...i guess i could be making it worse i was only throwing the bird after we would finish a training session, just as a reward as the bumpers don't really excite him...i have only done it a few times and haven't in the last couple sessions.

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 9:04 pm

luke0927 wrote:

continually working the jaws on it chewing it i guess he's not truly eating it.

Well, without seeing him, and if the bird's alive when you get it, with maybe just a minor hole or two in it, then relax, that's very common. Force will fix that. You will work very hard on the "HOLD" portion of force because "HOLD" is the command that controls a dog's jaws, not "FETCH". Fetch drives the dog, hold controls the jaws, drop is the release. Usually, the more they handle the bird's, even without force, the better the mouth becomes. It is possible it will go the other way though.

luke0927 · Post by **luke0927** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 6:21 am

I would definitely say now that it is just chewing not eating....yesterday i used a tennis ball instead of a bumper and he was doing the exact things with the ball...just chewing on it while bringing it back to me almost as if he was exercising his jaws...?

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 7:00 am

Then I don't think you have a problem. What you can do, is to just work on HOLD. Again, if you would get Evan Graham's Smart Fetch, it will very clearly demonstrate it to you.

What you do, is to stand the dog on a table or use a plank between two chairs about 10' long. Have a lead on the dog. Stand him on the plank, put a training dowel, about 1" across, put it in his mouth, and tell him hold. Every time he works his jaws, cuff him under the jaws and say "NO, HOLD. Eventually you'll be able to walk him at heel commanding HOLD while he walks with the dummy. Never let him move his jaws.

I actually have a 2 DVD set of smart fetch I'll sell to $35.00 shipped to you.

Good luck with the dog.