Dog not pointing running right to bird

[birddogger]

And no, you do not have to teach a dog to hold point for a long time, that is what the instinct will do for you as the dog develops and matures. And you certainly do not have to teach a dog not to chase to have a serviceable hunting dog, but should you care to then that is what Whoa is for.

Right on!!

Charlie

[Winchey]

Dogs only please their handlers if it pleases them to do so. So yes, dogs are actually self pleasing. I don’t know where you were going with all this domination stuff, one way to do things is to dominate the dog but there are other way’s to train a dog then enforcing your will onto it. We can get into psychology but we should probably start another thread for that, it gets pretty winded.

I don’t understand where your train of thought ends and your explanations of 4dabirds methods begins so excuse me if I got it wrong. So what do you do, just run on wild birds, and not train at all?

My philosophy is to basically, introduce pen birds/fire him up, introduce gun, run on wild birds let him figure out about birds on his own, drill manners on pen birds, run on more wild birds to figure out more about birds, then finish the drills and manners, then run on wild birds for the rest to let him perfect his skills. Then you brush up on manners from time to time with penned birds when needed.

What you are advocating is to not have any control of the dog and just let the dog do what it wants to do and hope the dog wants to please you because you dominate it and that for some reason the dog will figure out that you want it to hold that point but it is wrong to teach what you want?

Like I said, the pen bird stuff to me doesn’t really have anything to do with pointing. I see little (pointing) benefit, other than it looks cool getting a dog to nail pigeons in a field, even if you do it “naturally”. It only teaches a dog that birds don’t move and are easy to find and pin and the dog is in for a rude awakening when he starts running on wild birds regardless. It is about manners, after the point, and after the flush. My only issue is that I don’t think the other methods are miles ahead of 4dabirds like so many people advocated.

I probably wouldn’t use a method like 4dabirds to get a dog to point, but I don’t use any method to get dogs to point and hope I never have to. However I wouldn’t hesitate to use that method as a steadying drill.

[4dabirds]

Wow what a can of worms we got here . First I need to know from slistoe Give me one example of when your dog did something for you because it cared what you think. Did it share its dinner with you , perhaps hold the door,ask you to sleep in its bed tonight. All of that alpha dog mentality only leeds to dogs being corrected for no good reason. Dogs are motivated by there own self interest. Dogs do not think like people they are social animals but have no concept of morality ,right wrong , good or bad. If your dog does something you do not like it is your fault. You either trained the dog to do it ,or your lack of training caused the dog to do it. Dogs only see things as safe or dangerous. They learn by associating, one thing good or bad, with another. They strategize using there innate ability to cue off things in their environment to get what they want. These are all truths based in science not my opinion. I do not care how many dogs you have trained to do what ever it is you have trained them to do. If you do not understand this you should start doing some research. It will make you a better trainer. Not understanding these concepts is why you can not understand what I am talking about. So rather than trying to understand it, you dismiss it . As far as the dog pointing or not I would love a little clarification . First the o.p. said he has not seen the dog point , then he says the dog stops to point on top of the launcher . Does the dog point or does he just stop at the bird. Either way my drill will get the dog to stop on scent if done correctly. This is not pointing as have said i do no know how many times. It will not make the dog steady to wing and shot in one session. It will just get the dog to make the association that stopping is what gets the bird, not roading in, without using any correction in the presence of a bird, which will diminish style, if not make the dog blink. Also you have to take into account that the o.p. may not have access to wild birds this time of year and may be limited to pigeons.

[ezzy333]

Wow what a can of worms we got here . First I need to know from slistoe Give me one example of when your dog did something for you because it cared what you think. Did it share its dinner with you , perhaps hold the door,ask you to sleep in its bed tonight. All of that alpha dog mentality only leeds to dogs being corrected for no good reason. Dogs are motivated by there own self interest. Dogs do not think like people they are social animals but have no concept of morality ,right wrong , good or bad. If your dog does something you do not like it is your fault. You either trained the dog to do it ,or your lack of training caused the dog to do it. Dogs only see things as safe or dangerous. They learn by associating, one thing good or bad, with another. They strategize using there innate ability to cue off things in their environment to get what they want. These are all truths based in science not my opinion. I do not care how many dogs you have trained to do what ever it is you have trained them to do. If you do not understand this you should start doing some research. It will make you a better trainer. Not understanding these concepts is why you can not understand what I am talking about. So rather than trying to understand it, you dismiss it . As far as the dog pointing or not I would love a little clarification . First the o.p. said he has not seen the dog point , then he says the dog stops to point on top of the launcher . Does the dog point or does he just stop at the bird. Either way my drill will get the dog to stop on scent if done correctly. This is not pointing as have said i do no know how many times. It will not make the dog steady to wing and shot in one session. It will just get the dog to make the association that stopping is what gets the bird, not roading in, without using any correction in the presence of a bird, which will diminish style, if not make the dog blink. Also you have to take into account that the o.p. may not have access to wild birds this time of year and may be limited to pigeons.

It seems these posts have gradually shifted to the point that they are now saying we are all too stupid to understand our dogs or your method of training, which I think is actually what you have read from your favorite trainer. I just can't quite accept that. I can accept that you can train however you like and that the rest of us have that same privilege. I hope your method works for you and I know our method works for the rest of us. So now we are back at square one and I suppose that means you will have to start over and tell us again how your method is better because the dog had nothing but positive experiences. But I have found that works about as well for dogs as it does for our kids as they grow up thinking they are entitled to whatever they want.


Ezzy

[slistoe]

I don’t understand where your train of thought ends and your explanations of 4dabirds methods begins so excuse me if I got it wrong. So what do you do, just run on wild birds, and not train at all?

Hopefully it is fixed for you Winchey.
Pigeons and yard work definitely have their place to help the process along since there are few places where consistent, predictable wild bird contacts can be made.
I do as little training as is necessary. Given the right breeding it would take zero training to go afield with a serviceable gun dog - once the dog has matured past the puppy stage. Dogs with the right breeding do not want to be lost. Dogs of the right breeding naturally go with you. Dogs of the right breeding hunt. Dogs of the right breeding learn to point and be staunch from the birds. Dogs of the right breeding pick up shot birds without eating them. But most of us want some manners around the house and some additional manners in the field past find a bird and point it out in front of me.

[4dabirds]

Ezzy I gave what I thought was a good solution to the o.p.. Other people chimed in to say they would not take my advice when they do not even know what the advice is. How many dogs do I have? . what kind of dog do I have? How many dogs have I trained. I only understand one method. I never read anything that any one else has written. This is insulting so I was just pointing out the obvious flaws in other peoples knowledge. I have been trying to explain how a particular method works and why . It works for me and that is enough for me. Its too bad some people do not get the point. That was a pun in case you did not know.

[slistoe]

Wow what a can of worms we got here . First I need to know from slistoe Give me one example of when your dog did something for you because it cared what you think. Did it share its dinner with you , perhaps hold the door,ask you to sleep in its bed tonight. All of that alpha dog mentality only leeds to dogs being corrected for no good reason. Dogs are motivated by there own self interest. Dogs do not think like people they are social animals but have no concept of morality ,right wrong , good or bad. If your dog does something you do not like it is your fault. You either trained the dog to do it ,or your lack of training caused the dog to do it. Dogs only see things as safe or dangerous. They learn by associating, one thing good or bad, with another. They strategize using there innate ability to cue off things in their environment to get what they want. These are all truths based in science not my opinion. I do not care how many dogs you have trained to do what ever it is you have trained them to do. If you do not understand this you should start doing some research. It will make you a better trainer. Not understanding these concepts is why you can not understand what I am talking about. So rather than trying to understand it, you dismiss it . As far as the dog pointing or not I would love a little clarification . First the o.p. said he has not seen the dog point , then he says the dog stops to point on top of the launcher . Does the dog point or does he just stop at the bird. Either way my drill will get the dog to stop on scent if done correctly. This is not pointing as have said i do no know how many times. It will not make the dog steady to wing and shot in one session. It will just get the dog to make the association that stopping is what gets the bird, not roading in, without using any correction in the presence of a bird, which will diminish style, if not make the dog blink. Also you have to take into account that the o.p. may not have access to wild birds this time of year and may be limited to pigeons.

Yes, my dog shares his meal. He asks me to share his bed too. Most times I decline.
Clarification - the dog points close to launchers. He has not witnessed the dog point a wild bird. So the dog has some point in him. It needs nurturing to develop is all.
At least you agree that you method has nothing to do with pointing. So.... if you have a dog that has no pointing instinct it will work to get the dog to stop in the presence of birds. If you have a dog that does have pointing instinct then your method is counter productive to the goal of having the dog point. It is absolutely not a given that the dog will eventually transfer the artificial stopping at your command to eventually pointing the bird on its own. Yes, there can be a transfer from the spoken command to the scent of the bird, but if the dog eventually starts to actually point the birds it will be in spite of the training you have given rather than because of it.
The method advocated by every other poster on here is the same method used in some fashion by virtually every pro trainer whose very livelihood depends on their ability to train a dog with maximum style. So if you think that you can casually dismiss the method as being a style wrecker and a blinker maker you are so far off base it is ludicrous.
I highly doubt that the original advice given by some to CC the dog crosswind to the birds was going to be accomplished on wild birds - do you? Perhaps you need to re-read the thread.

[4dabirds]

Dog NOT POINTING RUNNING RIGHT TO BIRD . Wow this sounds to me like , Dog not pointing running right to bird.

[slistoe]

Whatever. Read the whole post through instead of clipping bits to support your misinterpretation. I am sure the OP has enough information to go on and I think I have stated my opinion on your opinion enough times for anyone who cared to read through.
Have fun with your dogs.

[Prairie Hunter]

Ezzy I gave what I thought was a good solution to the o.p.. Other people chimed in to say they would not take my advice when they do not even know what the advice is. How many dogs do I have? . what kind of dog do I have? How many dogs have I trained. I only understand one method. I never read anything that any one else has written. This is insulting so I was just pointing out the obvious flaws in other peoples knowledge. I have been trying to explain how a particular method works and why . It works for me and that is enough for me. Its too bad some people do not get the point. That was a pun in case you did not know.

Actually, I gave what I thought was a good solution to the O.P's problem, and you chimed in to say how my advice was wrong without understanding that advice or how and why that method works. So, I guess turnabout is fair play.

[4dabirds]

Ezzy I gave what I thought was a good solution to the o.p.. Other people chimed in to say they would not take my advice when they do not even know what the advice is. How many dogs do I have? . what kind of dog do I have? How many dogs have I trained. I only understand one method. I never read anything that any one else has written. This is insulting so I was just pointing out the obvious flaws in other peoples knowledge. I have been trying to explain how a particular method works and why . It works for me and that is enough for me. Its too bad some people do not get the point. That was a pun in case you did not know.

Actually, I gave what I thought was a good solution to the O.P's problem, and you chimed in to say how my advice was wrong without understanding that advice or how and why that method works. So, I guess turnabout is fair play.

you are right you did give a good solution. And I said i agreed with you. I dis agreed on one small point respectfully. I am sorry if you took offense.

[slistoe]

you are right you did give a good solution. And I said i agreed with you. I dis agreed on one small point respectfully. I am sorry if you took offense.

Really? Your "one small point" was the whole method and you replaced it with something that was completely opposite in cause and effect.

[Prairie Hunter]

Ezzy I gave what I thought was a good solution to the o.p.. Other people chimed in to say they would not take my advice when they do not even know what the advice is. How many dogs do I have? . what kind of dog do I have? How many dogs have I trained. I only understand one method. I never read anything that any one else has written. This is insulting so I was just pointing out the obvious flaws in other peoples knowledge. I have been trying to explain how a particular method works and why . It works for me and that is enough for me. Its too bad some people do not get the point. That was a pun in case you did not know.

Actually, I gave what I thought was a good solution to the O.P's problem, and you chimed in to say how my advice was wrong without understanding that advice or how and why that method works. So, I guess turnabout is fair play.

you are right you did give a good solution. And I said i agreed with you. I dis agreed on one small point respectfully. I am sorry if you took offense.

I took no offense. I don't expect everyone to agree with everything I say. I certainly don't know it all.

[brad27]

Once again I will say I followed prairie hunters method and have found great success with it. Actually it's not "his" method, if you read James b. Spencer's book"point! Trainging the all seasons bird dog" you will see this is the method he suggest.

4dabirds, what happens when you whoa the dog on first bird scent and it doesn't stop? You would apply pressure to get him to whoa, correct? I wouldn't want to start correcting a dog around birds this early in it's development. The method mentioned above requires no pressure. The bird does all the correcting. The dog points and is staunch the bird stays, the dog rushes in, the bird leaves and the dog doesn't get chase. This method does work. It might take a few more birds than some methods, but it does work. Please don't take this as an attack on you. It's not.

[Winchey]

"But I have found that works about as well for dogs as it does for our kids as they grow up thinking they are entitled to whatever they want."

There is nothing wrong with giving reward when it is earned, fair pay for hard work, a pat on the back for a job well done. The dog has to earn it, has to know when he earned it and why he earned it. If you are just spoiling the dog and dishing out rewards the dog hasn't earned then ya they may turn out like spoiled kids.

[ezzy333]

"But I have found that works about as well for dogs as it does for our kids as they grow up thinking they are entitled to whatever they want."

There is nothing wrong with giving reward when it is earned, fair pay for hard work, a pat on the back for a job well done. The dog has to earn it, has to know when he earned it and why he earned it. If you are just spoiling the dog and dishing out rewards the dog hasn't earned then ya they may turn out like spoiled kids.

I have no quarrel with rewards when earned, but I never felt doing the right thing was something to be rewarded. My point was directed more at the theory that you only use positive corrections and never use anything negative or that creates pressure. A balance of about 70% positive and 30% negative seems to be what works the best.

You have to remember that teaching a dog or a child how to handle negative pressure as a youngster is crucial if they are going to succeed later. No dog or no child has ever handled pressure well if their first experience is after they are mature. Handling pressure is one of the mainstays of teaching or training. The pup that learns young is the one that will handle it for the rest of it's life.

Handling pressure and earning rewards for outstanding behavior is great but it must be earned and not just given for doing what it is supposed to. That's kind of like giving a reward for breathing or giving a reward for coming. Neither action deserves a reward greater than a pat on the head or the back depending whether is is the dog or the child.

Ezzy

[4dabirds]

4dabirds, what happens when you whoa the dog on first bird scent and it doesn't stop

If the dog is not whoa trained I would not do the drill. If the dog does not stop in all circumstances it is not whoa trained. As far as prairies advice goes I agreed with him and said so. Where I differ is that I believe the dog has been allowed to road into the launcher and is not pointing. If this is true then i believe the dog has a problem that needs to be corrected. If I were starting a young dog with no repetitions of these things being allowed I would do things in a very similar way. One of the misunderstandings is I do not correct the dog at all. That is not true. I will correct once he dog is 80% on a command but first he is taught with positive reinforcement. The whole idea behind what I am trying to get across is to avoid correction while the dog is in the presence of a bird. And to let the dog make an association that has a positive outcome. It is a very nuanced difference from what prairie advised. His advice relies on the dogs interaction with the bird. Because I have seen dogs with so much drive that they will continue to chase or road in on birds despite Heavy correction caused by allowing this behavior, I think it is best to make an association that gets the response in a positive way.

[Winchey]

A balance of about 70% positive and 30% negative seems to be what works the best.

I would have to agree. I am still young but even in my generation growing up playing hockey you had to earn your ice time, and you got yelled at and diciplined and skated and benched and all the rest of it. Then a couple years ago I decide to coach and it certainly is not like that anymore. All the kids get equal ice time, and don't have to earn anything. You don't coach you are a supervisor except you can't really supervise because you can't dicipline. I have no clue why the kids need a supervisor when they are allowed to do whatever they want. Anyway's I don't coach anymore. That's my rant for the day.

[birddogger]

Yeah, if kids don't have some pressure and discipline, they are not going to handle it when they become adults and there is pressure and discipline all through life, regardless of age. They are going to have all kinds of problems throughout life if there is no discipline when young. The same with dogs.

Charlie

[4dabirds]

A balance of about 70% positive and 30% negative seems to be what works the best.

I would have to agree. I am still young but even in my generation growing up playing hockey you had to earn your ice time, and you got yelled at and diciplined and skated and benched and all the rest of it. Then a couple years ago I decide to coach and it certainly is not like that anymore. All the kids get equal ice time, and don't have to earn anything. You don't coach you are a supervisor except you can't really supervise because you can't dicipline. I have no clue why the kids need a supervisor when they are allowed to do whatever they want. Anyway's I don't coach anymore. That's my rant for the day.

+ one for me on 70 30. And plus a hundred on the coaching.

[Prairie Hunter]

4dabirds, what happens when you whoa the dog on first bird scent and it doesn't stop

If the dog is not whoa trained I would not do the drill. If the dog does not stop in all circumstances it is not whoa trained. As far as prairies advice goes I agreed with him and said so. Where I differ is that I believe the dog has been allowed to road into the launcher and is not pointing. If this is true then i believe the dog has a problem that needs to be corrected. If I were starting a young dog with no repetitions of these things being allowed I would do things in a very similar way. One of the misunderstandings is I do not correct the dog at all. That is not true. I will correct once he dog is 80% on a command but first he is taught with positive reinforcement. The whole idea behind what I am trying to get across is to avoid correction while the dog is in the presence of a bird. And to let the dog make an association that has a positive outcome. It is a very nuanced difference from what prairie advised. His advice relies on the dogs interaction with the bird. Because I have seen dogs with so much drive that they will continue to chase or road in on birds despite Heavy correction caused by allowing this behavior, I think it is best to make an association that gets the response in a positive way.

The launchers themselves, if used correctly, will stop the roading in behavior. Once the dog comes to believe it is his movement toward the bird that causes the bird to flush, it won't road in. Timing is the key to this exercise. If you have a dog that chases, I use the check cord to retain it. I never allow the dog to chase during this stage of training. Some dogs enjoy the chase, so it becomes a reward in itself. The only correction in this technique is done by the bird. I don't give any commands, use any force, or use any “heavy” corrections to get the dog to stand. I let the dog decide what is in its best interest. I have never seen a dog that would not choose to get the bird instead of choosing to let the bird get away.

The great thing about this technique is that dogs with a lot of drive and determination will use that same level of determination to stand there, and they will refuse to move once they realize that standing is the only way they can get a bird.

I think one of the big misconceptions in dog training is that everything must be positive and that the dog must always succeed in every training scenario. It's simply not true. Wild predators don't always succeed when they are learning to hunt, but they do learn what not to do by negative outcomes. Like wild predators, our dogs are hard wired to repeat successful behaviors and discard unsuccessful behaviors. The only difference is, if your dog screws up, you take it home and feed it, but the wild predator goes hungry. If a wild predator tries to catch something, and it doesn’t work, they will not try that same technique more than a couple of times. They will drop it and try something different until they find something works. But, once they find a technique that works, they will repeat it over and over as long as it continues to work for them. Dogs operate much the same way. That is why I set them up to fail first. They learn that roading in or breaking point gets them nothing. Once they start pointing, I set them up to succeed (if they stand, they get a bird). Which behavior do you think they will choose to repeat?

[Quill Gordon]

Ba ha ha ha ha hah gag cough choke spew.
Hound steady to pigeon in launcher but wants to chase wild Chukar.
I now need to tame wild Chukar

[Quill Gordon]

4dabirds method sounds a lot like Perfection Kennels method, yea or nay?

[Prairie Hunter]

Ba ha ha ha ha hah gag cough choke spew.
Hound steady to pigeon in launcher but wants to chase wild Chukar.
I now need to tame wild Chukar

You need to work your dog on chukar. Game bird scent is always more exciting to a dog than pigeons. By the same token, wild chukar scent will be more exciting than pen raised chukar. However, if you start by working him, and getting him steady, on pen raised chukar (or other game birds for that matter), it will be much easier for him to handle the excitement level generated by wild birds. You must also demand he remain steady on your initial contacts with wild birds, just like when you were training. Steadiness training is all about conditioning the dog to withstand increasing levels of distraction until it can handle the distraction and temptation of wild birds.

[russbrumbelow]

Lots of good info in this topic. Thanks guys, you answered a lot of questions for me.

[Quill Gordon]

He'll point Chuks if they hold but if they start to move it's adios muchachos

You must also demand he remain steady on your initial contacts with wild birds

Not sure what you mean by that, we let the hound run free to figure it out for himself. I just keep my mouth shut and observe for the most part. 8 months btw.

[4dabirds]

why does he chase?

[Coveyrise64]

why does he chase?

He isn't broke would be my guess.

Coveyrise64

[Coveyrise64]

Ba ha ha ha ha hah gag cough choke spew.
Hound steady to pigeon in launcher but wants to chase wild Chukar.
I now need to tame wild Chukar

You need to work your dog on chukar. Game bird scent is always more exciting to a dog than pigeons. By the same token, wild chukar scent will be more exciting than pen raised chukar. However, if you start by working him, and getting him steady, on pen raised chukar (or other game birds for that matter), it will be much easier for him to handle the excitement level generated by wild birds. You must also demand he remain steady on your initial contacts with wild birds, just like when you were training. Steadiness training is all about conditioning the dog to withstand increasing levels of distraction until it can handle the distraction and temptation of wild birds.

Gamebird scent probably is more exciting than pigeons but I believe the reason more intensity is shown on gamebirds is that in most situations they are shot for the dog. Pigeons are normally used for the initial steadiness and the dog is not put back on gamebirds until the level of steadiness desired has been met. Gets pretty pricey watching those $8.00 chukar just fly off, still need that gamebird/wildbird exposure but start shooting some of those pigeons and the intensity level will go up.

Coveyrise64

[Quill Gordon]

why does he chase?

He wants to catch would be my guess

[Quill Gordon]

start shooting some of those pigeons and the intensity level will go up

Yeah we pop'em when all goes well which is most the time. My inventory is getting low

[Prairie Hunter]

Quill,

What I meant is that many people don’t require their dogs to continue to remain steady when they go from training, testing, or trialing to actual hunting. Like I said, the temptation and excitement is much greater on wild birds, so the dog is more likely to break even if it has demonstrated steadiness during training. IMO, it is imperative the young dogs be required to remain steady on wild birds when they first start working them. Yes, it is going to cost you some wild birds initially, but once the dog understands the same rule remains in effect, they will remain steady. You just have to look at it as an extension of your training.

However, I was under the impression your dog was staunch on point with pigeons, but just not on wild chukar. Now, I get the impression you have not worked on getting him to remain staunch on point if he sees a bird on the ground moving. Have you ever had a pigeon, or other bird, on the ground walking around while your dog is on point? You need to condition him to that. Until you get him staunch when faced with moving birds during training, you can’t expect him to remain staunch on wild birds that are moving.

[Quill Gordon]

However, I was under the impression your dog was staunch on point with pigeons, but just not on wild chukar. Now, I get the impression you have not worked on getting him to remain staunch on point if he sees a bird on the ground moving. Have you ever had a pigeon, or other bird, on the ground walking around while your dog is on point? You need to condition him to that. Until you get him staunch when faced with moving birds during training, you can’t expect him to remain staunch on wild birds that are moving.

Gotcha. He's steady on pigeons in launchers. He's wise to that game though. We started hunting with this little feller at three months just to have him out there. I was surprised as he had some "bleep" good points with some dandy retrieves especially late in the season. Since the season ended I haven't seen him point a wild bird until last weekend. Three points Valley Quail and a nice point on Chuks. Anyways we don't trial and thought we would take the natural approach to him steadying himself but also threw pigeons in remote launchers into the mix. He knows the difference and wild Chuks aren't playing by the same rules as trapped Pigeons. Long story short we have completely backed off on Pigeons for now and are now working the Hanns method for steadying him. He's gettin real steady in the yard so as of last night we moved to the field. He did good but was distracted at times as you can imagine. I did work with him one time with a pigeon walking around in front of him in the yard and it went well with him on cc but after reviewing the Perfection Kennel method decided to go back to the beginning of the whoa work as they describe it. Will work on this for awhile before we intro the Pigeon again. He has excellent recall, heels good and retrieves to hand in the yard. Also I plan to purchase some Chuks to work in the remote launchers at a later date as well. Were just working on the steady thing for now.
Thanks amigo for the reply!

[slistoe]

Gotcha. He's steady on pigeons in launchers. He's wise to that game though. We started hunting with this little feller at three months just to have him out there. I was surprised as he had some "bleep" good points with some dandy retrieves especially late in the season. Since the season ended I haven't seen him point a wild bird until last weekend. Three points Valley Quail and a nice point on Chuks. Anyways we don't trial and thought we would take the natural approach to him steadying himself but also threw pigeons in remote launchers into the mix. He knows the difference and wild Chuks aren't playing by the same rules as trapped Pigeons. Long story short we have completely backed off on Pigeons for now and are now working the Hanns method for steadying him. He's gettin real steady in the yard so as of last night we moved to the field. He did good but was distracted at times as you can imagine. I did work with him one time with a pigeon walking around in front of him in the yard and it went well with him on cc but after reviewing the Perfection Kennel method decided to go back to the beginning of the whoa work as they describe it. Will work on this for awhile before we intro the Pigeon again. He has excellent recall, heels good and retrieves to hand in the yard. Also I plan to purchase some Chuks to work in the remote launchers at a later date as well. Were just working on the steady thing for now.
Thanks amigo for the reply!

So your "training" has been all over the map and you are wondering why the pup isn't consistent.

[Quill Gordon]

Oh I don't know that running a pup on wild birds while steadying him on pigeons in remote launchers is all over the map. He!! if we were having trials with nothing but pigeons he'd be in the winner circle. Were not talking trials here though, it's the real deal, not some game man made up. Wild birds run bud something a hound has to learn to relocate & corral without pressuring the bird/birds, nothing I've seen in training books or synthetic situations teaches a dog how to handle this other than wild birds. If you have a better solution than my own I'm all ears, so to speak? If not, try selling the harses arse reply somewhere else professor, I'm not interested

[Prairie Hunter]

Quill,

Sounds like you’re off to a good start. I think you just took too large of a step for your pup to handle at that stage. You went from captive pigeons in a launcher (low level of temptation) to wild chukar (extremely high level of temptation), with no conditioning steps in between. Steadiness is really just an exercise in getting the dog to understand what you want, and getting it to accept increasing levels of distraction and temptation without coming unglued.

I am not really familiar with the Perfection Kennel method, but I know a lot of people use it with good results, so it must work.

[slistoe]

Oh I don't know that running a pup on wild birds while steadying him on pigeons in remote launchers is all over the map. He!! if we were having trials with nothing but pigeons he'd be in the winner circle. Were not talking trials here though, it's the real deal, not some game man made up. Wild birds run bud something a hound has to learn to relocate & corral without pressuring the bird/birds, nothing I've seen in training books or synthetic situations teaches a dog how to handle this other than wild birds. If you have a better solution than my own I'm all ears, so to speak? If not, try selling the harses arse reply somewhere else professor, I'm not interested

The dog learned the difference between birds in the launchers and wild birds because you were "bleep" around from one idea to the other without a consistent application of method. You have already received more than enough free advice to set you back on the right track and I would not have commented except you did not seem to be taking any of it seriously. Your dog only has a problem because of what you have taught him so far. Much of what you taught you did not intend to teach, mostly because you didn't really intend to teach much at all by the sounds of it. You were just running on a hope and a prayer. But now that you have decided to go back to the basics and start over from the beginning with a plan and a program you will likely be fine - that is if you actually read this whole thread and believed what was written and will apply it to your training - and make your outings actual training with a plan and a purpose with consistent application and a goal.

[4dabirds]

why does he chase?

He wants to catch would be my guess

My point here is he chases because he can. Remember that whatever you let your dog do you are training the dog to do. Every time the dog has a repetition of the wrong thing it is something learned the dog will have to unlearn . This will require pressure. If you are going to use a certain plan stick to it and do not be in a big rush to get to the finished product. Taking your time allowing the dog to absorb each step slowly will get you there faster. If you think the dog has a concept down well, work on it a little longer in different locations and slightly variable ,it will pay off. Good luck It seems you are off to a good start.

[Quill Gordon]

The dog learned the difference between birds in the launchers and wild birds because you were "bleep" around from one idea to the other without a consistent application of method

I gots to call BS, we were consistant with both. What you have stated has already been established by myself with a plan to re-establish. So I have to say excellent hindsight professor. The hound learned a little of both so no worries bud it will pay off in dividends later.
What else ya got fer free? And speaking of "bleep"

[Quill Gordon]

My point here is he chases because he can. Remember that whatever you let your dog do you are training the dog to do. Every time the dog has a repetition of the wrong thing it is something learned the dog will have to unlearn . This will require pressure. If you are going to use a certain plan stick to it and do not be in a big rush to get to the finished product. Taking your time allowing the dog to absorb each step slowly will get you there faster. If you think the dog has a concept down well, work on it a little longer in different locations and slightly variable ,it will pay off. Good luck It seems you are off to a good start.

Sound advice. The hound chases and realizes he can't catch is the concept. Some fellers swear by it
Gracias

[Quill Gordon]

Quill,

Sounds like you’re off to a good start. I think you just took too large of a step for your pup to handle at that stage. You went from captive pigeons in a launcher (low level of temptation) to wild chukar (extremely high level of temptation), with no conditioning steps in between. Steadiness is really just an exercise in getting the dog to understand what you want, and getting it to accept increasing levels of distraction and temptation without coming unglued.

I am not really familiar with the Perfection Kennel method, but I know a lot of people use it with good results, so it must work.

I think you right on takin to big of a step but we did it with Chuks first and thought Pigeons might help with the steadyness issue. What the he!! do I know I'm an ignorant Lab guy. Back to the drawing board it would seem for us.
Anyways, after reading your method I'm not sure you would like the Perfection Kennels method but from what I hear through the vine is there are many ways to skin a cat.

[Winchey]

8 month old pup that is steady on pigeons and points wild birds but goes with the bird? And you guys are saying he has a problem or he did this, this and this wrong. Dog is fine and is going to be fine, just need to take out the chase and let him grow up.

[Quill Gordon]

Yeah we's still going to be "bleep" around Maybe not tommorrow but...

I gets the feelin some ole boys just don't appreciate what it takes to get a pup on wild Chuks
Hows that?