E-collar discussion - all opinions welcome!

[crackerd]

But it is my understanding many test pups as young as 8 weeks to establish a base point of e-collar tolerance, those that over react to low levels wash out before training even begins.

Neil, since you're only repeating hearsay (as "understanding"), I won't say that you're committing a slander, instead you're just perpetuating an outright fallacy. Eight week old puppy with an e-collar slung around its neck! So at nine weeks they must be ready for forcing to the pile with 220 volts, right?

I do know for a fact FC Labs are tough in every way, and have always thought part of their dominace in trials over goldens and Chessies is resistance to e-collar stimulations, allowing more option for the trainer.

What you don't seem to know for a fact is there are many, many variations of Labs and "tough in every way" is translatable to "Labs are resilient in training after being corrected - they go even harder afterward." Indeed they do, most of them. But not by jolt from an e-collar, since the correction isn't often administered by the e-collar. Again, you might want to try on an "understanding" of indirect pressure - that kind of "toughness" is all but totally unrelated to "resistance to e-collar stimulations."

Not to mention how, through indirect pressure methodology, you're often using the e-collar on low-level momentary stimulation to begin with, since when you do use the collar (again rare in the extreme for field trialers, including me), you only want to get the dog's attention with it, not get its attention five feet up in the air ....

MG

[EvanG]

Perhaps Evan will respond to correct the record if I am totally wrong.

But it is my understanding many test pups as young as 8 weeks to establish a base point of e-collar tolerance, those that over react to low levels wash out before training even begins. I do know for a fact FC Labs are tough in every way, and have always thought part of their dominace in trials over goldens and Chessies is resistance to e-collar stimulations, allowing more option for the trainer.

There is no negative judgement in my beliefs, a top Lab is an amazing animal with much to admire.

So maybe they are not breeding for it, but it seems to be there.

Neil,

I'm so grateful that you have asked this. It's so much better to ask about an idea like this than to allow it to take on a life of its own by assuming it might be true. If e-collars had not evolved to their current flexible state from 30 years ago we may be sitting here agreeing with this notion as actuality. When I began using them about 1977 there was no real competition. It was a Tri Tronics A1-70; one button/one level = all it had continuous unit. It took a tough character to stand up to that, even in the skillful hands of a Rex Carr.

He pioneered the "variable-at-the-transmitter" e-collar. The first one was an A1-70 he sent to TT and had them engineer the transmitter with 3 buttons; low, medium, and high. On the butt cap that used to say "TT" it now says "Rex's Special". I saw it when I was there, and watched him train with it. Before I came home that summer TT had released the first production model e-collar that was variable at the transmitter. That was the TT 100-A. Our world changed forever in a very good way. There was always a training group at CL-2, and everyone had a 100-A by the time summer was over.

We are making FC's of dogs that could not have withstood the methods of trainers in the 70's, 80's, and even much of the 90's. Too sensitive and bright to use that kind of pressure on. The revolutionary ideas of Mr. Carr have prompted our top breeders to design breedings to produce much more sensitive dogs. In the upper levels of field trials today there is little room for tough guys & gals. They don't tend to be low maintenance enough to get through nationals. It's a different world. Thanks Rex.

EvanG

[Nutmeg247]

I had an interesting experience with my pointer this morning. He initially just wasn't responding to his collar at all at normal levels, so I made sure it was tight enough, and then took it off and made sure it was working by trying it on me. I put him in the car and just tried going somewhere else, figuring if he stayed a knucklehead there we'd call it a day, but there he was fine.

He hadn't seemed particularly revved up this morning -- if anything he was a bit laid-back when I put the collar on this morning. I can simply guess that he was trying to wait out the collar, and that possibly going somewhere else was either a negative punisher by cutting time short at the first place, which made him more mindful the second time, or that he just had a change of mood. Anyway, it was striking how with the same dog reactions can vary a lot to the same collar.

[Trekmoor]

It certainly is a different world. An advert to sell lab pups in an American outdoors magazine 25-30 years ago read ...."These pups are bred to take the collar." I don't think anyone would breed for that now or advertise it if they did. I was horrified at the time and if I was offered such a pup now I would certainly turn it down. The modern e-collar is a very different thing to its' horrendous ancestor.

Bill T.

[polmaise]

Would the Trainer/handler of 30 years ago embrace the tool as it is now in the same manner?
Or is there other factors to consider?

[EvanG]

It certainly is a different world. An advert to sell lab pups in an American outdoors magazine 25-30 years ago read ...."These pups are bred to take the collar." I don't think anyone would breed for that now or advertise it if they did. I was horrified at the time and if I was offered such a pup now I would certainly turn it down. The modern e-collar is a very different thing to its' horrendous ancestor.

Bill T.

How about if they had been honest enough to have advertised the other "truth"? Bred to withstand being prodded with a 6-battery transistorized cattle prod and shot with a 12 ga. shotgun as normal training measures? Equally a reality of the times.

Would the Trainer/handler of 30 years ago embrace the tool as it is now in the same manner?
Or is there other factors to consider?

Some would, some would not. I think that's just people being people. We insist that dogs change their habits, but we are very reluctant to change ours. But believe me, many of us eagerly adopted and used the variable units. I was at Carr's in the mid-1980's. We jumped on the 100-A, eager to turn down the heat.

EvanG

[polmaise]

Evan,
Some would argue that low level and increased intensity during collar conditioning would lead to the possibility of the dog being conditioned to accepting more intensity and pain.
Can you explain in detail for the likes of me to understand Rex Carr methods on tune-up drill and Chinese water drill ?

[EvanG]

Evan,
Some would argue that low level and increased intensity during collar conditioning would lead to the possibility of the dog being conditioned to accepting more intensity and pain.
Can you explain in detail for the likes of me to understand Rex Carr methods on tune-up drill and Chinese water drill ?

Yes I can, thanks. It's called "The Smartwork System", and it can be conveniently obtained at our website www.evan-graham.net . Enjoy! The package you're looking for is "The Works"; 3 books, and 9 DVDs.

EvanG

[polmaise]

Thanks Evan
You and I both know the answer is not there.
Are You selling on here?..Or asking for All opinions on e-collar discussion?..Or just the ones that agree with you?
I don't think I deserve your retort!
Oh! ..Idiocracy ..watch the film
when that's done, have a look at Runaway Jury.

[gonehuntin']

One of the lessons taught to me by the late Hall of Fame trainer Rex Carr is a lesson with two distinct but related parts. One is that he hand tested every one of his collars, as do I continue to do. The second part is that we do this, not to "feel what the dog feels", but rather to test the collar's functions. These variable collars are fantastic...when they work properly. I want to know that the stimulus is delivered as it should be, and that the variability features are functioning.

No wonder the Major was a little on the odd side. You'll appreciate this Evan. I was never foolish enough to nick myself with a 70, instead I'd put them near my ear, hit the button and listen for the buzz. One hot day when I was dripping in sweat, I must have gotten it a little to close and it and it arced across to my sideburn. That is how a "side burn" got it's name.

My clients, I believe, are still rolling on the ground over that slight "error". :roll:

[EvanG]

My clients, I believe, are still rolling on the ground over that slight "error". :roll:

Doing a spot of rolling myself!!

EvanG

[EvanG]

Just a little more e-collar history. Some of us who were around back then can relate to the fact that the old A1-70's were not built with the consistent quality components of today's units. Anytime we met at D.L.'s, or in any group with multiple collars, we first got out our test lights and conducted a frequency check. It was not uncommon for two or more collars to set each other off! We do live a great age!!

EvanG

[Neil]

MG,

As my comment was in writing, you mean libel, not slander, that I almost commited.

Evan,

Are you saying you only use the lowest setting the dog can feel for all applications? You never step up the stimulation for certain lessons? I thought (I started to write "my understanding", but don't want MG to sue me for defamation) , certain drills called for a bit more. Like a long channel blind as compared to a diversion bird?

If I am right about that, it would seem a good thing if a dog did not over-react to the lowest setting.

[krakadawn]

I certainly try to keep the stimulation at the same level specific to that dog. To me, the type of 'drill' as you say has nothing to do with it. It has more to do with the degree of lack of effort shown by the dog. If you are trying to suggest one might differentiate between it's use in a long water blind vs a poison bird then I might question whether you have a solid understanding on the use of indirect pressure and lack of effort on the dog's part.
Those two situations you quoted have in reality little in common in collar application unless you are a Dobbs fan and support direct pressure and cold burns which are not used by most of the higher skilled trainers.

Generally speaking a drill for us is usually a repeated yard practise of a specific skill. A water blind is a complex accumulation of many skills taught as both drills and in other daily training .....initial line, handling, casting, negotiating cover, angle entries/exits, diversions etc

I too was around for the early collars, We are in a different universe now.

Regards,

[gonehuntin']

Interesting perceptions about pain, and electricity. If electricity has nothing to do with pain, then why did dogs (in the days of the 70), scream puke, roll, spin, and froth at the mouth when hit with it? Doesn't cause pain? If when a person is hit on the chest with a cattle prod, and it leaves burn marks, is there no pain? If a dog is hit with a prod or collar and he screams or bites, is there no pain?

Some dog's react to a 1 setting on a Pro 100, some work nicely at a 3. Thing is, they react in some way, even if it's merely perking up their ears to all levels of ecollar stimulus. So I don't understand or misunderstand the references to dog's only reacting to higher levels of the collar and the ecollar having nothing to do with pain. Perhaps I'm simply not understanding what is being said.

[Neil]

Please read my previous post.

Electricity prompts a physiological reaction in mammals unlike that of pain, it has to do with the electro brain system. It is simple if you have even a vague understanding of the nervous system. Think of the symptoms you have seen as a short circuit.

[gonehuntin']

Bear with me on this a moment because I know virtually nothing of the nervous system. If a instrument leaves burns on you from the electricity, how can you say there is no pain associated with that?

Are you asserting that a dog is in no pain when a collar is run at it's highest setting on that dog?

To me it looks like the dog is in paIn but what we believe we see is not what may actually be taking place. I believe Evan was an EMT or something like that sTo I am interested his replies as well as yours.

I realize you may be right, just makes no sense to me.

[Neil]

At higher levels, there can be burns and pain, but a light shock is a chemical, electromagnetic response that varies greatly amoung animals, and even the same animals within the same day. The same reaction has been documented with a 1,000 ohms and later taking as much as 100,000 ohms to duplicate. Pain is much more static.

But the what the dog does is much more important than the why. We know e-collars work, and work well.

I only entered this scientific arena to try to explain testing the collar on yourself is of no value. I am sorry, we can learn much more from Evan on how to use it, than I can contribute.

[gonehuntin']

That, I'll buy. I have a bad back that wS made terrible by years and years in chest high waders chasing dog's and planting blinds. When it got really bad I'd go to. Chiropractor and he'd treat me by spreading a fell on my back then putting a Electrified Matt on it. I'd tell him what level to run the electricity at. It was absolutely great!

[EvanG]

Evan,

Are you saying you only use the lowest setting the dog can feel for all applications? You never step up the stimulation for certain lessons? I thought (I started to write "my understanding", but don't want MG to sue me for defamation) , certain drills called for a bit more. Like a long channel blind as compared to a diversion bird?

Neil,

A direct answer is "no". As I've said earlier, we use force/pressure to change behavior. In support of known commands, pressure imposes a level of requirement upon the dog to comply with a well-taught standard of behavior. How much pressure? What 'level' of force? That isn't arbitrary. It's up to the dog. I don't put more pressure on a dog because this is a blind, or some particular drill. I put more pressure on a dog because less pressure had failed to produce the desired change in behavior. If a medium 2 effected a distinct change for the good, why would I hit the dog with a high 5? I was not after vengeance. I was after compliance. That occurred back at medium 2.

If I am right about that, it would seem a good thing if a dog did not over-react to the lowest setting.

Over-reactions are rare when you approach e-collar use as I do. And that includes a thorough job of pressure conditioning.

EvanG

[chevyrulz]

just wanted to say thanks for the discussion, I'm intrigued to read y'all's thoughts. I am still doing FF w/ my pup, I'm learning to vary the collar stimulation with the pups mood. It's crazy that one day I'll FF using 20 out of 100 to barely get her attention, then the next day she's near yelping & loses focus because 20 was too high. This reading the dog thing, sure ain't easy!


edit:

and, I'm only trying to read 1 dog. I have a new found respect for the skill it takes to train dogs for a living.

[Neil]

Thanks Evan.

[EvanG]

...It's crazy that one day I'll FF using 20 out of 100 to barely get her attention, then the next day she's near yelping & loses focus because 20 was too high. This reading the dog thing, sure ain't easy!


edit:

and, I'm only trying to read 1 dog. I have a new found respect for the skill it takes to train dogs for a living.

What usually happens is that the dog becomes sensitized to the stimulus during conditioning and will react more to less stimulus. That is very typical.

Thanks Evan.

Anytime buddy. You have contributed great questions.

EvanG