New here. advice on training woah?

[romeo212000]

Hey all. I am new here and so very glad I found this place. I am in the process of training my first dog. She is a 7 month old German Shorthair and coming along great. She is pointing birds and holding for a little while and moving along much faster than I anticipated so I figured I should go ahead and introduce the Woah command. I started her on a barrel, then moved to a board, then beside the board and now I am in the process of trying to get her to woah in the field. Her strength is also her vice in my opinion. She's too dang smart for her own good. I have been tying a 50ft cord to a post and taking off and having her follow me. When she nears the end of the cord, I command Woah and if she doesnt she rings her own bell. This worked great a few times but she got smart and when she neared the end of the cord and I would command woah she would stop but then continue to walk and mill around. I just go back over to her set her back where she was and tell her again and she usually gets it. I have been told if you can vary the long of the cord each time it will speed up the process. Something like running th cord through a ring on the tie-out stake keeping the other end in hand so I have control over where then end of the cord is so she cant anticipate the end, and just learn that Woah means Woah. I was thinking of trying this but wanting to know if you guys have had this problem or if there are any suggestions.

[Brushbustin Sporting Dogs]

I myself have never done that method. Its sounds as if she isn't far enough in her training to be letting her do it by herself. I think you need to step back to just your yard work. If she won't whoa in the yard she dang sure aint goin to do it in the field. I've found that as long as you have them whoa broke in the yard it takes little to no work to get them to do it in the field. Back up slow down and get things going right on your whoa board then have her doin it in the yard condition your collar in on her slowly as your working her on this. MOst impotant be consistent in your trainig whoa means whoa let her know that. And as for the tying them to a tree and letting them "ring there own bell" I don't think is a very good idea at all YOU hav eno control of the dog and that what training and commands are they put you in control not the dog. Keep the CC in your hand not tied to a tree.

[AZ Brittany Guy]

Romeo,

There are probably 6 different ways to teach whoa (all good) and it seems like you may have a couple of methods going on at the same time. You seem to be using a variation of the "Smith" whoa post method which is very good. I am not a big fan of new trainers using bits and pieces from several different styles. It tends to confuse the trainer and ultimately the dog.

Pick a method i.e. Delmar and Rick Smith or Hickox, West, Walker etc. etc. and study it and work with it until you understand what you are doing from start to finish.

I am sure more experienced people will chime in on the subject.

I wish you the best.

[romeo212000]

I have only worked her in the yard on woah. Everything I wrote there is in the yard. I am very cautious about doing anything to discourage her when she is around birds. I agree with you that she needs to have it down in the yard before enforcing it in the field. She is very solid on the barrel, and board and even beside it. Now I am just working with her in the yard to try and get her to stop when I tell her to. I have been very careful not to put too much on her too young but both trainers I have shown her too and worked with a little bit agree that she is a very mature dog for her age. Thanks for the info.

[Brushbustin Sporting Dogs]

Then if shes doing it like you said I would just walk her around the yard on a CC so you have control. Whoa her if she doesn't stop correct her and so forth. It won't take long for he rto pick it up but start with her at your side walk three steps you say whoa your stop she stops type of thing when she has that let her out in front and progree from there I think you have a good start just be patient.

[romeo212000]

Thanks. Obviously all dogs are different but just curious if you had a rough timeline or something as far as how long it generally takes a dog to learn and start getting steady on woah. Like most people I intend to use Woah as a dual purpose command. Obviously for the obedience but if I can teach to to be steady on Woah then teaching her to be steady on point will be as simple as telling her to woah when she points. It will also make teaching honoring and backing easier as well. I will be patient, just wondering what the rough timeline is.

[Brushbustin Sporting Dogs]

It varies so much from dog to dog. It's tough to really say for sure you know. I'm just an amatuer trainer aka mostly my own stuff but I've had dogs break out in days and that one prick took months. It sounds like she learns easy so time consistenty and patient will get her there. And remember shes still young so you have time.

[romeo212000]

Im definately not rushing her. I wont even be able to get her on birds again for another month or so. Therefore I am taking this opportunity to continue to reinforce her obedience commands and introduce a new one or two. You are right she is a very quick learner, and because of some great advice and a great book has learned from the very first day that lerning is fun and enjoyable. She is already conditioned to the collar on basic commands like Come and loves to wear it because the first thing we do when I put it on is go for walks and make a few retrieves. I think I may have missed a step in my progression of training. I will hold off on working her on the post anymore until she is woahing on the lead. When she has that down then I might move back to the cord. Like I ssaid she has been solid all the way up to this point. I can usually even set her down somewhere and tell her Woah and walk circles around her and walk away and she will usually stay put until I tell her come.

[bh99]

Here's what worked for me. I taught whoa and heel together going for a walk every other night. I used a pinch collar with check cord attached. First start to walk and say heel bring him to the side. Randomly whoa him and tug the pinch collar then say heel to release him. Next I started kicking my feet while whoa'd. Then moved infront of him eventully I could walk all the way around him and he'd stay. Then I whoa'd backway from him while looking straight at him. Eventually I got to the the end of the CC and he'd stay. At that point I added a E-collar to him along with CC/pinch. I'd whoa get to end of cc drop it on the ground this is were the e-collar is used as with out the cc you have no way to correct. Once this was good I stopped using the cc/pinch and went to just a e-collar. I started increasing the distance to where I could go 50-100 yards and he'd stay. Then I started moving out of sight while he was whoa'd. I can now whoa him and go over 100 yards or out of sight and he won't move. This process took almost 2 months every other night for 15-20 minutes.

[romeo212000]

Thanks that sounds like a good way of doing things.

[gonehuntin']

I'm very similar to bh99 in my approach, with a few differences. I teach whoa with heel and use a heeling stick. If you don't want to, you don't have to tap the dog's chest with the heeling stick, just use it as a visual barrier for the dog so he doesn't forge ahead.

Once he is heeling, work on whoa. Stop walking, command whoa, give a sharp tug on the collar, and hold the heeling stick even with his chest.

When he is doing this well, do as bh099 said and start walking circles around him, giving gentle pulls on the leash. If he moves, command whoa and gently tap his chest with the heeling stick.

Once he's doing this, whoa him, walk to the front of him and call him to you. When he is half way to you, command whoa, and step toward him with the heeling stick pushed toward him. If you encounter any trouble at this point, add a whoa post or any kind of post. '

Now you'll be working with two ropes. the one on his collar and another attached to a collar around his waist. The lead on the waist collar runs from the waist collar to the whoa post and back to you. See the advantage? Now when you call him to you, you can command whoa, tighten up on the rear line, and stop him in his tracks. That lead stops him from forging ahead, the one on his collar from spinning around. You have him.

When he's perfect at this, take him off the whoa post and try calling him to you, stopping him in route. on walks use a 20' cc and when he's off to the side, whoa him and make him stop. Continue walking and walk larger circles around him.

When he's doing all this, I know he understands whoa thoroughly and I start all over only switch him over to the collar. That' it.

[Don]

You got close with the 50' check cord and the post. But the cord is way to long and you also need a shorter leash and another collar. If you want to do the whoa post, I recommend it, get the Bill Tarrent book on Delmar Smith. You saw your dog stop when caught from behind you just didn;t figure out how to keep it there, the book will tell you.

[bh99]

One other thing to add be random. Meaning don't always take 30 steps and say whoa. Sometimes I'll slow my walking down or act like I'm going to stop. While on the CC also make sure to change direction 180 turn. After your done with the CC and he heels if I notice my dogs not paying attention I'll do a 180 and call him when he catches up I'll take a few step and do another 180 just to enforce that he need to pay attention to me. When heeling I also like to use the tone button on my e-collar. My dog likes to creep ahead of me. I'll give him a few chances and just use the tone and after 4 or 5 reminds he gets a poke with the e-collar.

[mm]

I have been watching this post as I am having some problems with whoa also and I have a question. I have been using the same method as described with the pinch collar and heel. My dog will stop on a dime with whoa while walking with me at heel. I also run with her and command whoa and she will stop even if I keep going. So I have her whoaing well I can walk around her and out front and even go out of sght and she will not move. I have started letting her go out ahead with a check cord and commanding whoa. This is hit or miss and at this time I also introduced the e collar. When I whoa and she is away from me she stops when she moved I tried the e collar and commanded whoa. The dog got confused and ran to me. This also confused me so I went back to the pinch collar and the short lead and heel. What did I do wrong? I should also say the only time I use the e collar is when I call her in and she does not come or if she gets into somthing she should not be in an does not obey. I have only nicked her and it has not been that many times overall. Any suggestions.

[gonehuntin']

I tried the e collar and commanded whoa. The dog got confused and ran to me. This also confused me so I went back to the pinch collar and the short lead and heel. What did I do wrong? I should also say the only time I use the e collar is when I call her in and she does not come or if she gets into somthing she should not be in an does not obey. I have only nicked her and it has not been that many times overall. Any suggestions.

Inadvertantly, you've answered your own question. You've taught here to come on the collar but not to whoa on the collar. To be a succesful collar dog, every command the dog has learned without the collar must be learned with the collar. You can't just say whoa, nick the dog, and expect it to stop. You've taught the dog to come to the collar, so that is the command the dog will follow when stimulated.

Now you have to back up. As you're walking, then running, command whoa and stimulate with the collar. Stop the dog with the pinch collar if it doesn't stop. Continue this with the dog at your side until it stops when stimulated. Throw in a come everyonce in a while so the dog doesn't get blinded to working to only one command again. Only stimulate the dog once per three or four commands.

When dog is doing this, whoa her, walk in front, call her to you, and stop her half way in. If she doesn't, don't fight it. Put two ropes on the dog and follow my advice on the post above.

When you finish this, the dog should stop anywhere when commanded whoa, or commanded and stimulated. Lightly.

[Don]

You guys that know me know I have no problem with an e-collar, I use it. But I have never used the heel/whoa to teach a dog to whoa. Someone tell me, can a dog be taught whoa that way without an e-collar? Similar to the problem above, how do you stop the dog away from you if you don't have the dog on the collar and the lesson taught with it? It seems to me that all that is being taught with that method is heel. Until the collar is introduced but if I were a dog, when I heard whoa, I'd come to heel and want to stand there, that's what I'd have been taught. And I do understand the idea of learning to shut off the stimulation. It seems to me that in order to succeed the dog must first fail.

[romeo212000]

This is an interesting problem I would think you might run into. Has anyone had thisproblem using that method or were you just able to get the dog to woah no matter where he was in correlation to you? Is the reason the dog does not have this problem is because the only command he understands to mean return to your side is heel, and then he understands woah simply means stop no matter where you are? Thanks for the help by the way. I started working with her on a slip lead with heel and woah and made a little progress already. She has started to heel well on the first day and woah fairly well towards the end of the session. Usually all I had to do was make one correction with the slip lead. I will keep you guys updated.

[gonehuntin']

This is a really long post I made on another board. But with the questions about whoa, the collar and heel broached on here, maybe it takes a long post to expain it so everyone understands. Here goes.

WHOA!!

There are a lot of way’s of teaching the command “Whoa” to a pointing dog. I don’t like
barrels, benches, planks, etc. I like teaching it on the ground where the dog makes his
living, as part of his obedience program. I also have never liked the word “Whoa”. It’s a
soft command and sounds too much like “No”. I use “Stop” instead. It’s sharp and not
confused with any other command. I start a dog’s obedience work along with their force
program at anywhere from 6-10 months of age, it depends on each dog and his individual
traits. Most dogs are ready by 8-10 months.

First, hopefully you’ll elect to have an electric collar dog. That’s how I’ll address this
post. Not only will it make your training faster, easier, and safer, but later on that collar
will become and indispensable safety implement for that dog. With a collar you always
have total control, be it in the field, woods, or city streets. You will need a regular 1”
nylon or leather collar, a choke collar, a six foot lead, an electric collar, a 20’ check cord,
a heeling stick, and a portable whoa post.

Remember, the dog is just wearing the electric collar now, it is not to be used on him. My
dog’s wear a collar from about four months on. It means “Play Time” to them. They
never go outside without the collar on. If you use a heeling stick, you won’t need a choke
collar. It doesn’t make much difference one way or the other. Put the collar on the dog
and attach the six foot lead to it. Command “Heel”, pat your leg and give an easy tug on
the leash and start walking. If the dog lag’s behind, give it short tugs and pat your leg,
commanding heel in a steady and even voice. Carry the heeling stick in your right hand. If
the dog forges ahead, very gently tap his chest with the heeling stick, jerk back on the
lead, and command heel. When you stop, pull back on the lead, tap the chest front with
the heeling stick, and command “Stop”. Start walking again and command “Heel”. Each
time you change direction, which should be often, command “Heel”. It is at this point that
you can introduce him to the whistle and teach him to stop to one blast and come to three
blasts. Each time you give the verbal command, immediately follow it with the
appropriate whistle command.

Keep up this regimen until when you stop, the dog automatically stops without any
command. Now we’ll halt him with “Stop”, walk to the front of him commanding “Stop”,
stand there, and command “Here, Heel”. Pat your left leg and give him a tug on the leash.
As he comes in to you, use the heeling stick to guide him around to your left side so he
comes in to your left side, turns, and stands there facing ahead at “Stop”. Remember not
to give extraneous commands to a dog. Once he’s trained, he should perform that
command to it’s finish, until released from the command, or until given another
command. As example, you shouldn’t teach “Stay”. A dog should “Stop”, “Sit”, “Heel”,
or lie down until released from those commands. Now command “Heel” and walk the
dog for a while. “Stop” the dog and step to the front. Say nothing and gently tug on the
lead. If the dog moves, push the heel stick toward his chest and command “No, Stop”.
When he’ll do this, try walking circles around him, commanding “Stop” and gently
pulling the lead in different directions. When he stays steady, command “Here, Heel” and
finish him to your side.

When he performs these commands competently, it’s time to work on distance. Now you
attach your 20’ check cord to him in place of the 6’ lead. We may also use the portable
whoa post here. Command the dog to “Stop” and walk out to the end of the check cord,
turn and face the dog. Command “Here” only, not heel. When he’s about half way to you,
take a step toward him, pointing the heeling stick at his chest and commanding “Stop”. If
he keeps coming, don’t hit him, command “No, Stop” more loudly and pick the dog up
and place him back on the spot he was standing when originally commanded to stop.
Now try it again and keep at it until the dog stops when commanded to do so. When he
stops, walk circles around him gently tugging the check cord and commanding “Stop” at
each tug. Command “Here, Heel” and finish the dog.

You will find a few dog’s that are very defiant at this. That’s where the portable whoa
post comes in. If he refuses to stop, don’t hurt or battle him, buy a 50’, 1/4” check cord.
Run the check cord from the collar to the whoa post and back to you. Attach the 20’
check cord to the snap of the lead attached to the check cord. It’s much easier to work
this drill if you have an assistant. Humor me and let’s say you do. The assistant then
stands 20’ behind the whoa post with the 50’ check cord. Since you have an assistant, the
check cord will not run through the whoa post. Call the dog to you commanding “Here”.
When half way to you, command “Stop”. You assistant will not jerk the check cord, he’ll
simply tighten up on it, stopping the dog. You keep tension on the forward cord. Now you
have him. Maybe. Some start to spin. If this happens, attach a collard around his stomach
and the assistant’s check cord to the flank collar. This stops all spinning. Work gradually
in a circle around the whoa post alternately calling the dog to you and stopping him. The
assistant stays on a straight line between you and the dog, walking the circle with you.
The whoa post at this point is for reference only; it doesn’t even really have to be there.
When he is doing this drill perfectly, take off the 50’ check cord and try him. If all goes
well, proceed to the next step. If you don’t have an assistant, the only difference is, you
have to run both ropes yourself and the long rope now goes through the whoa post and
back to you. It’s hard, but with practice you’ll get the hang of it. It’s also something you
won’t have to do often, usually only once or twice and the dog will understand the drill.

When he is performing this to perfection, try just walking him and letting him range in
front of you on the 20’ check cord. When he’s to the side or in front of you, command
“Stop” and give a tug on the cord. Again, if he doesn’t stop immediately, command more
loudly “No Stop”, grab the dog and pup him back where he was when first commanded to
do so. You should not have trouble here. He should stop reliably. Keep working on him
until he does.

When they’re at this point, I begin force fetch. When they’re finished with the manual
force, I go back and collar break them, introducing the collar to all of the commands they
now know. But let’s say you’re not going to force fetch your dog and the only two things
you want to use the collar for are for “Here” and for “Stop”. Great, that’s strictly your
choice. Find the comfort level of the dog with the collar. With a Tri Tronics Pro 100,
most dog’s work well at a level 2 or 3. Strap the collar to the dog but not too tightly. Put
it on his neck up around the ears and tighten it so it’s snug but not tight. It will slide down
his neck and tighten itself. Stimulate him on two and watch him. If he shows no reaction,
up the intensity. What you’re looking for is a slight shrug of the head with no verbal yip.
OK, we’ve found the intensity, now command “Heel”, move forward, and stimulate the
dog. Give a gently pull on the lead if you have to. When introducing the collar, only
stimulate the dog about once per three commands. When he works and tries to beat the
“Heel” stimulation, move to “Here”. The electric collar is all about sensibility and timing.
Command “Here” and stimulate the dog if he doesn’t instantly move toward you.
Always give the dog a chance to win and beat the correction. Now introduce “Stop”. The
dog has to learn that the collar means multiple things, no just “Stop”, “Here”, or “Heel”.
The “Stop” command will give you the most trouble. The dog has been taught “Here” and
“Heel” solidly so his first instinct will be to get to your side to escape correction. If you
try teaching “Stop” first, the dog will many times freeze and not want to obey the other
commands. He thinks he’s safe in a stationary stance. I like to teach “Here” and “Heel”
first because they’re driving commands and teach the dog to move with the collar. When
he understand these three commands, work him at different intensities, sometimes one,
sometimes 3 or maybe 4. Never make him yip but make him uncomfortable to he learns
to work at different intensity levels. This is very important in the force fetch program so
he won’t freeze up on “Fetch”.

Usually this is when someone asks “Do you like continuous stimulation or a nick?” 90 %
of the time I use the “nick”, but on whoa and to prevent creeping, I’ll use continuous low
level. I think you get more out of a dog by using a higher nick than a low and nagging
continuous. I believe they’re a lot like a person; they hate nagging and would prefer to
just get the lesson over with. Nagging is what creates a sour dog.

Never take the check cord off during collar breaking. You never want to give the dog
and opportunity to run away or go out of control. Now walk him letting him range to the
sides or front and stop him. If he doesn’t immediately stop, stimulate him. Always
challenge the dog. When you take him back to the house or truck, command stop at the
door or tail gate of the truck and allow no movement until we release him. Never be in a
hurry to advance to another step of training until the dog has mastered the phase he’s in.
Never miss an opportunity to train and reinforce. You can do it in the house and well as
the yard. Use distractions as well to your advantage. Children, other dog’s , people; use
them all to your benefit. Now he’s ready to start in the field on birds but he’ll still wear
the check cord until he’s steady to flush and shot, even if it’s only 10’ long. We want and
demand that control. At this point he’s ready to start steadying on birds if you’re not
going to force him.

[Don]

Good post GH. But there are people that do not resort to the whoa post as you do. I'm wondering how you get the dog to understand to stop away from you if you don't go to a post of some sort at some time? I use the whoa post right from the beginning then go to short posts in the yard I can hook with the check cord as I go to catch the dog from behind. Once caught the dog stops and I flip the cord off the short post, tighten up and bump ala Delmar. What puzzles me is how people get to that point after teaching heel? Perhaps the reason I don't have trouble teaching a dog to sit is that I do teach it at heel, but not whoa?

Let me see if I get this. They are heeling the dog and then command whoa/ stop. The dog learns just as you said above, stop is a place at heel. To get beyond that, you go to a post or modified post using a helper, got that. What do these others do that don't go to the post at some point? I never hear them explain the transition from the heel to stopping across a field.

[romeo212000]

Thanks for a great post

Hey guys I just finished my second session with her on this and thoght I would give an update. I worked with her the day before and got her heeling and woahing on a slip lead with the methods described here. I continued the lesson tody by applying pressure from the lead everytime i commanded woah and when it seemed like she was obeying the command and trying to beat the pressure I started to overlay a slight nick from her collar. Then I moved to just the collar. Then I moved to giving pressure from both the lead and collar a second after the command and very soon she started to anticipate it and stopping as soon as the command came from my mouth. Then I just started using the collar a few times. And finally I started lettign walk in fron of me on the slip lead and commanded woah. I only had to nick her twice and after that she stoppedd every time and would let me walk around her and past her and would wait till I gave her a release command to move. We did that for another fiive minutes with near perfection and ended the lesson with a few fun retrieves. I know she is not near woah broke yet but could not believe how quickly she picked this up today and know it is a step in the right direction. I will continue like this for another week or so and then move to a 20' cord and proceed from there. Let me know what you guys think. Thanks for the advice.

ps. Don I dont pretend to know what Im doing, especially since I am the one who asked the question that started this thread so take this with a grain of salt but this is an observation of mine. As soon as I could tell she had it down at heel I did not want to drill it in her head anymore that woah is a command to be performed at heel as you said. So I wanted to let her start walking around me and in front of me on the slip lead and continue to teach and enforce the command that way. Its just an observation of mine but it seemed to work pretty well today.

[Don]

If it works for you, do it. I just have never understood how you get beyond that close encounter type whoa.

[bh99]

Let me see if I get this. They are heeling the dog and then command whoa/ stop. The dog learns just as you said above, stop is a place at heel. To get beyond that, you go to a post or modified post using a helper, got that. What do these others do that don't go to the post at some point? I never hear them explain the transition from the heel to stopping across a field.

I guess my dogs smarter than yours....just kidding.

I think what teachs them whoa in the field is from having them whoa'd you walk 20 yards infront of them and say heel and when they get halfway you whoa them. This teachs them that whoa means stop.

[Don]

OK. When your 20' in front and tell them heel then say whoa at 10', what stops them from coming to heel? Up until that point, they were taught to whoa at heel. They were also taught to stay on whoa when you move. Now how do you stop them half way back? At that point they must be on the collar or they should come to heel.

I suspect this heel/whoa is confusing for a number of people, it is for me. In GH's post, he actually went to a modified whoa post to stop the dog part way back, that I understand. In fact, as I recall, he went to the post before introducing the e-collar. In fact, he goes all the way thru the post before going back to the collar. Can this be done without the e-collar with the heel/whoa method?

[bh99]

When I did the whoa halfway my dog stopped first time everytime, the problem I had once he was whoa'd if I moved he'd heel. I used the e-collar to reinforce that he was to stay put.

[gonehuntin']

Sorry Don, I thought it was very clear. To me only I guess. There are two ways to stop the dog when it's coming toward you. First, when you whoa the dog, take a step toward it as you say whoa. If it doesn't stop, pick up the dog and put it back where it was when you gave the command. It's really very easy.

The second way is my absolute favorite if I have a helper and that is with the double rope method. Trainers have been using that for over 50 years that I'm aware of. With two ropes you have absolute and total control of the dog and the dog can not make a mistake.

All of the dog's I train, I usually just train from heel and never have a problem. That's the way I've always done it. As far as the ecollar, that is right. I don't introduce it until the dog thoroughly understand each and every command without it. Only then is it overlaid. That is how I get the whoa at a distance on the dog.

[gonehuntin']

OK. When your 20' in front and tell them heel then say whoa at 10', what stops them from coming to heel?

Reread my post Don. You never tell the dog "Heel", you tell it "Here" and stop it on the way. It's no different stopping them coming in, than stopping them when they're at heel. You're just adding distance.

I suspect this heel/whoa is confusing for a number of people, it is for me. In GH's post, he actually went to a modified whoa post to stop the dog part way back, that I understand. In fact, as I recall, he went to the post before introducing the e-collar. In fact, he goes all the way thru the post before going back to the collar. Can this be done without the e-collar with the heel/whoa method?

Yes, you never have to put the collar on a dog if you don't want to. If you carefully consider it Don, there's little difference in our methods except I prefer not to use a whoa post if I don't have to. As I said in my post, if I'm by myself, that's the first thing I do to get distance if the dog doesn't just stop when I whoa it. I plant the whoa post and use it to stop the dog.

By not using the whoa post I can wander all over the yard, stopping the dog at will anywhere. He never associates whoa with only one place. If I'm using the post, I get him off it as soon as possible so he's not whoaing in just one area.

[Don]

GH,

The question about heel was in response to bh99's post saying he gives the dog the heel command. What your doing with the helper is about the same as I do with a post. Once I get away from the post, I have short stakes in the yard I catch the dog on while moving around. You were very clear I thought except I didn't get the dog coming towadr you deal.

[gonehuntin']

Sorry Don, I posted that after the Packer game and didn't read your post close enough. Utterly depressed.

Don, another thing I've done that you may give a try is to stop them by attaching the 2nd rope to the top end ring of a roading harness. I have my dog's in harness all the time conditioning them so have a harness anyhow. One day I was helping a person out and noticed that when we snubbed the dog on the whoa post, it pulled them a little to the side. We buckled a roading hareness to the dog and hooked him up. Now when we whoa'd him and tightened up on the back rope, it stopped him perfectly straight. I liked that result a lot. I also am vehemently opposed to flank collars on a dog unless I absolutely have to. It's so unnatural to the dog. The flank collar they wear only at one time, they're in a roading harness for life.

You and I have talked about teaching sit and neither of us have a problem. When I worked at one kennel, the owner had a metal pole in the ground in the yard that stuck up 8' above the ground. On top of the post was a ring with a large snap that revolved around the post. We;d use the post as a center pivot with a 1" collar on the dog's flank hooked to the rope on the pole. When the dog would hit the end of the line and we'd whoa it, the pole would actually exert an upward pressure on the dog's back end, never allowing him to sit. I always liked that because I thought that the dog then associated and upward pressure on his hind end with whoa. We never had a problem transitioning to sit.

[bh99]

They learn heel means walk next to me and whoa means stop. If you heel then whoa halfway to you their is nothing to stop them. I taught this last after he was used to the e-collar. When I first started whoa halfway I didn't use the e-collar the first few times. I would pick the dog up and move him back and give whoa and try again. By the end of the first session he pretty much did it perfect. After that I'd use the e-collar if he broke.