Introducing a pup to birds...Need advice!

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Murphy's Law

Introducing a pup to birds...Need advice!

Post by Murphy's Law » Wed Feb 27, 2008 2:57 pm

First off, hello to everyone that uses this site and those who offer advise on these subjects. I discovered this site today while trying to look for training info online.

I started upland bird hunting 2 years ago and found myself addicted. This past October I found my first Gun Dog, a male GSP. I have done a ton of research on gun dog training and have found the "George Hickox - Training Pointing Dogs", to be very helpful. I bouhgt the entire 4 disc set and have been using that as a system for my training. My pup Murphy is now 6 month old and is growing and developing very quickly. I have most of his basic obedience locked in him without even using his e-collar yet. He is conditioned to wearing it but I have not re-enforced them with the collar. I continue to work him on these basic commands but wanted to get him introduced to birds and guns before continuing on.

So, everything I read and watch about introducing dogs to birds says that you should use pigeons to introduce. Starting with a wing-locked bird, moving on to a clipped-wing bird and then everntually a planted bird. From what I understand you are doing this to avoid the risk of a larger bird smackin your pup around when he goes for it and scaring him for life. Is this really something to be worried about? I am in MI and I cannot find pigeons nearby to save my life. I really want to get Murphy on some birds but everything I am reading is scaring me away from introducing him to a Chukar or maybe a pheasant hen at the preserve. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Also, I should add that i have introduced him to pheasant wings and a dead pheasant. He was very curious to the scent and picked them right up.

Thanks

3 Joes

Post by 3 Joes » Wed Feb 27, 2008 3:08 pm

I usually start all my pups on quail from a launcher. I use a launcher so i have control of when he bird flushes. I then go from quail to chuckar and finally with Pheasants. I would have to say i have trained over a dozen dogs and have never used pigeons.

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Post by ezzy333 » Wed Feb 27, 2008 3:23 pm

My pups have always been started on what we can find in the field. That is usually a hen pheasant. I have never had a problem caused by a bird though the first flush usually sets them back on their rear.

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Post by Murphy's Law » Wed Feb 27, 2008 3:24 pm

I appreciate the timely response. Also with that, do you introduce them in the yard at home and just let them chase a bird around on the ground and let them get comfortable with the bird or do you just go straight to a planted bird in the field? The training video i referred to shows the trainer throw a locked wing pigeon in the grass and lets the dog go discover it. Even lets the dog pick it up and play with it. The trainer says nothing to the dog. Just lets it get comfortable with it and repeats this over and over so the dog will want birds. Is this uneccesary?

Rich

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Post by Don » Wed Feb 27, 2008 3:39 pm

I'm with ezzy, wild birds. Many people introduce pups in the yard by putting down a flightless bird for the pup to catch and maul. Some simple shake a pigeon in front of them and let it fly. I have never understood why they feel the need to do that. Your dog was bred to hunt birds, it's in his blood.

What does Goerge Hickox say about it? I've never seen his video.
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Post by Murphy's Law » Wed Feb 27, 2008 3:48 pm

In George Hickox video, he demonstrates by placing temorary 3ft fence in the yard to create 3 sides. Only one opening so the dog will be in a controlled area. he then places a flightless pigeon in the area and lets the dog go at it. He seems like a very good trainer but takes a lot precautions to ensure your dog does not get bird shy or gun shy. He puts so much emphasis on it that is has me very nervous about this happening to my pup.

What do you think about introducing to guns? I sighted in my shotguns and muzzleloader out back with my dad this year and had my wife watch the pup to if he reacted to our fire and she said he never budged. He only looked in the direction with curiousity.

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Post by RoundRiver Setters » Wed Feb 27, 2008 4:52 pm

Our setter Jesse has had two trips to a hunting preserve. One last year and one this year and the rest have been wild birds. He has never had any birds planted for him. I introduced the gun at the same time. Never never muzzel blasting the dog. One shot only. He was so intense on the birds he acted like he never heard the shots.............Scott
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Post by Murphy's Law » Wed Feb 27, 2008 4:58 pm

Were you useing a 410, a blank pistol, 12ga, 16ga? I have seena lot of trainers starting small and far away and working closer and using more powerful guns.

My weapon of choice is usually a 12ga O/U or a side-by-side 16ga.

By the way, I appreciate everyones reply and giving me their experiences and advise. Thanks guys!

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Post by RoundRiver Setters » Wed Feb 27, 2008 5:07 pm

Murphy I hunt with a 20 so that is what I used. I am not saying this is the best way. It worked for me with this dog. I had him under control in the field and he was doing everything right.......Scott
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Post by Murphy's Law » Wed Feb 27, 2008 5:14 pm

Yeah, I understand. Thanks alot for sharing the info with me. I'm thinking I will take him to the preserve this weekend and see how birdy he gets. Maybe next time I will get my wife or my dad to come out and fire a shot from a distance when he gets on a bird. I'm really excited to see how he does. I live on 5 acres and he is constanly out winding animal in the woods and weeds and flash points a ton.

Oh, and the dog is "Murphy", I'm the "Law" :D

Rich

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Post by RoundRiver Setters » Wed Feb 27, 2008 5:26 pm

Ok Law ! :lol: I would make sure that I shot when the bird was flushing. The dog will be very excited at this time and he prob won't even hear it. Just use common sense and have fun...........Scott
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Post by gonehuntin' » Wed Feb 27, 2008 6:00 pm

I agree with Hickox. I want that dog handling birds and carrying birds. The pointing is built into a dog, the retrieving and love of handling birds, IMO, is not. I think that is why you see so many pointing dogs that don't retrieve well. People are afraid that if they get them carrying birds and retrieving, they will be harder to staunch. Maybe. But I'd prefer a dog that is an absolute bird maniac; that's what I'm after and that's what I lke to work with.

Don't use pheasant, they're too large. Chuckar are too fragile like quail. Pigeon is a perfect bird. Most game farms sell them.
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Post by jessie » Wed Feb 27, 2008 6:17 pm

Murphy you've gotten good advice here. I would add this. I would NOT let your find a bird and then go in and pick it up. This will get your dog to thinking he can catch birds and that is a hard mentality to get a young dog over. Also for your first time shooting over him do NOT shoot at the same time you flush that first bird. If something happens and he isn't sure about the flush and you go firing a gun over him you create a negative association that you will never be able to correct. Flush the bird watch what the pup does. If he's geaked up and takes off after it let him get out about 50 yards and then fires. If he spooks and looks unsure do NOT shoot. Work him on another bird and build his confidence. Your best bet is to find a local gundog trainer and spend a little money and have him do a one day training session with you. It will be money well spent.

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Post by ezzy333 » Wed Feb 27, 2008 6:39 pm

If the pup is chasing let it get 30, 40,50 ft awy and you turn and shoot away from the pup with whatever gun you have. I've never had a problem if you have the pup out hunting, chasing, or whatever as long as the pup is intent on what it is doing. Once you shoot just keep walking and say nothing to the pup if it comes back to you. Next day do it again. You will be fine.

I do occasionally let a pup when it is real young play with a pigeon or quail. Let them catch and carry if they can. But if you don't get that done just work the birds you can find in the field.


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Post by gonehuntin' » Wed Feb 27, 2008 7:50 pm

I should have clarified that point on handling birds. Only let him retrieve birds when you throw them. In the field, he points them and doesn't get them unless you throw them and command FETCH.
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Post by Don » Wed Feb 27, 2008 11:41 pm

RoundRiver Setters wrote:Ok Law ! :lol: I would make sure that I shot when the bird was flushing. The dog will be very excited at this time and he prob won't even hear it. Just use common sense and have fun...........Scott
That could be a huge mistake. If the gun bothers the dog and you shoot at the flush, the dog may well associate the flush with the shot and start blinking the bird. Happened to someone else here not long ago. If your not going to introduce the gun in a controlled situtation, at least let the bird get flying AND the dog well underway chasing BEFORE fireing the gun.

I can't remember who it was but it was a confusing problem.
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Post by kninebirddog » Thu Feb 28, 2008 12:07 am

Yeah the advice that one gave this guy was while his dog was running around to inroduce the gun...the dog ahd no clue why the loud noise was going off and thus tail crackin was hired to help get the pup from being gun shy

I like for small pups from about the 5 week through 12 weeks of age quail..if the pup catches the bird once or twice..then free chase is done

there is nothing wrong with a baby puppy getting a catch or two it only builds prey drive

then i go to other things and a check cord and up to a pigeon

everything your gonna do with a little pup will help build a foundation but ..until they mature your really only guiding to a desire end result leaving the formal training for when they are ready

for most this strong start is fine for an average hunter...you can take it to the next levels ..it is up to you what you want for you and your hunting comapnion

anything right now needs to be fun little games short sweet and end on good notes specially now sessions

always ending your session on a good note is a smart thing..do not push a good session into failure by trying it one more time...
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Post by TrueBlu Shorthairs » Thu Feb 28, 2008 8:10 am

I start by letting pups at 8, 9, to 16 weeks, depending on the dog, teasing them with a pigeon, hold the pigeon, let 'em rip all around me, and try to catch, then release the bird low and let pup chase. Once he is FIRED UP for birds, I free release very good flying quail and let him learn to hunt and find birds. If they fly well enough he can point, pressure them, they fly off, somewhat like wild birds. Best yet, put him on wild birds he can never catch. Once he is chasing pigeons a good distance, then I introduce the blank gun. He chases, chases, chases, finally kill a bird for him. Still a pigeon. Anything that might be perceived as bad happens on a pigeon. Once he has had some killed over him, I move to quail. If season is open during this time, we take pup to run with the big dogs and learn to hunt properly. By the time he's 6 months, he's pointing, seen wild birds, had birds killed over him, and is learning to run and hunt.

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Post by Murphy's Law » Thu Feb 28, 2008 8:19 am

Thanks a lot guys. Hearing this from other experienced hunters and dog handlers really helps. I'll leave another post in a few days after getting him out and let you guys know how he does.

Rich

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Post by jessie » Thu Feb 28, 2008 8:33 am

Gonehuntin I knew that's what you meant but some new handlers might not know exactly what you were saying. I think Tru has the right idea. I live in Kansas so I have wild birds to run on and thankfully don't have to use libbys until I'm ready to break my dogs in a controlled situation. Some people don't have that luxury though and I understand that. One important thing to remember is to let that pup be a pup. He has his whole life left to be a finished birddog. Keep it fun for him. That's the most important thing for youngsters.

TrueBlu Shorthairs

Post by TrueBlu Shorthairs » Thu Feb 28, 2008 9:45 am

If you cannot get pigeons, hard flying quail are great for bird introduction. Don't plant them IMHO, but free release them. We are simulating hunting and wild birds if possible. Release them in decent cover, but not so thick they can't escape, but not so sparse they can be easily seen. Once he is chasing HARD, then you can introduce the gun.

Flat don't like checkcords unless dog won't point, wants to barge in on planted game, breaking dogs, teaching whoa, etc. I like pups to free run, don't want to shorten them up at all typically, would rather them not focus on anything but the birds, certainly not be thinking about the rope.

Just wanted to clarify several points.

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Post by RoundRiver Setters » Thu Feb 28, 2008 4:00 pm

Law.. Don is right in what he said about shooting at flush. I was not very clear in what I said. I needed to be specific and for that I am sorry :oops: . What I meant at flush was with in 10 or 20 yards to shoot if the dog was doing ok with the bird flushing. If he was startled or scared not to shoot. That is why I put the use common sense part in. Like I said I am sorry that I was not more specfic. :oops: ..............Scott
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Post by Murphy's Law » Thu Feb 28, 2008 7:29 pm

All that sounds good guys. I'll take it to the field and see how it goes.

Also Scott, no need to apologize I picked up on where you were going with it. I think if in the situation where he got a little spooked, I would have held off on the fire. In fact, I will probably give him a couple trips to the field on birds before shooting at the flush.

Thanks again for all the advise guys. I am always happy to here what you guys have to offer for advice.

Rich

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Post by tmanker » Sat Mar 01, 2008 8:06 am

Isn't the "prey drive" already built in to these dogs? I would assume that everyone on this forum is buying dogs from very good quality hunting lines. Is it really necessary to let the pup chase and catch and chew on pigeons or quail? Can't a guy just get the pup on wild birds and skip the pigeon stuff?

tmanker

Post by tmanker » Sat Mar 01, 2008 8:15 am

Ok, I'm a newbie and was wondering if I was missing something. Thanks

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Post by Don » Sat Mar 01, 2008 9:33 am

I'm with you tman. I believe prey drive, what used to be called desire, is built in in the breeding. It seems like everyone thinks you have to get it going real quick or ,,,,I don't know what happens! Does it simply go away? I can guarantee in a well bred pup it doesn't. What I have found is that getting them into to many birds to soon, particularly killed birds or birds they catch, releases a monster your gonna have to get in hand later.

Everything you do with a pup, everything you allow with a pup, that you don't want later, you'll have to fix later. It's like buying a car with flat tires and a blown engine. Your gonna have to fix it before it's any good to you.
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Post by gonehuntin' » Sat Mar 01, 2008 10:39 am

I don't know, I don't know of any dog, anywhere, that won't be a better dog through actually handling birds, and by that I mean, in his mouth.

I have always thought that was the reason so many bird dogs had so many mouth problems, retrieving problems, and lack of desire to hunt dead. Obviously times have changed today. Years ago when bird dog's were made, many had hundreds of birds shot over them every season. They were constantly in to birds and handling birds. That is simply not true today for the vast majority of dog's.

In a year's time you see thread, after thread, after thread on these different BB's about dog's not caring for birds, not wanting to retrieve, not hunting dead. To my way of outdated thinking, much of it boils down to bird exposure and handling. I feel that if you just want a good pointing dog, and aren't worried about the retrieve, then those that say just work him on wild birds are somewhat correct. He'll point and love it, but it's going to take him a lot longer to get trained in the basics with no pigeon or pen bird contacts. He'll also never be the retriever a dog started handling and pointing pigeons from 8wks will be.

A big part of this is availability of birds. If anyone thinks they're going to make a great bird dog taking him out a few weekends a year, with marginal bird contact, hunting season only, they are sadly mistaken, breeding or not.
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Post by tmanker » Sat Mar 01, 2008 1:21 pm

I'm getting a pup in a couple weeks that was born in January. If I start FF in late september that gives me a month to get through it before season. He would be around 9 months old. If he has never been exposed to a single pen-raised bird, am I really hurting that pup? Am I setting him back? By that time I would expect him to be exposed to dozens and dozens of wild birds and he will have had wild pigeons shot over him by then for sure. I'm not sure why letting him smell a pen-raised bird is better than a wild one. If letting him chew on it builds drive, I'm not sure I want that either. I'm not the least bit worried him being birdy; my homework on the breed and breeder will surely pay off. If being hard-mouthed is an issue, isn't that where FF comes in? If he won't retrieve, isn't that where FF comes in? Like I said, I'm new at this and not questioning anyones ways.

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Post by gonehuntin' » Sat Mar 01, 2008 5:07 pm

tmanker wrote: I'm getting a pup in a couple weeks that was born in January. If I start FF in late september that gives me a month to get through it before season. He would be around 9 months old.
Especially since this is your first dog, it's going to take you more than a month to get him through force. Were I you, I'd figure 8-10 weeks by the time you've finished him on dowels, bumpers, and birds. A pro will obedience train and force him in six weeks.
tmanker wrote: If he has never been exposed to a single pen-raised bird, am I really hurting that pup? Am I setting him back? By that time I would expect him to be exposed to dozens and dozens of wild birds and he will have had wild pigeons shot over him by then for sure. I'm not sure why letting him smell a pen-raised bird is better than a wild one.
If you expose him to pen raised birds in the yard, you'll be teaching him to be steady to point and flush. You'll teach him not to push his birds too closely. With launchers, you'll do that in a matter of days rather than months. You want to keep him on the controlled pen birds and let the wild birds further his education. He'll learn far faster on pen birds. Why do you think that virtually every pro instills the basics using pigeons or tame birds?

You also want him handling and retrieving birds before you ff him. If he's a good retirever and you force him, you're really only polishing his performance. Believe me when I tell you that if you just start forcing him and make his first bird encounters unpleasant, you'll be in for a long, tough, road. It has nothing to do with him "smelling" tame birds and everything to do with handling them and learning how he's going to make a living in life from them.
tmanker wrote: If letting him chew on it builds drive, I'm not sure I want that either. I'm not the least bit worried him being birdy; my homework on the breed and breeder will surely pay off. If being hard-mouthed is an issue, isn't that where FF comes in? If he won't retrieve, isn't that where FF comes in? Like I said, I'm new at this and not
questioning anyones ways.
Who said to let him chew on birds? Most won't, but if they do you don't allow it nor do you punish it. You just get the bird and do it again. Beng birdy and handling birds are two different things. Most well bred dogs will point very naturally and very young. Retrieving that bird is a different story. It will be much, much, easier to ff the dog if he allready loves to retrieve. It will be much harder if he is not. Force may and may not cure hardmouth. What it does is prevent hard mouth if the dog is not hard mouthed all ready. I don't think you quite understand what's being said here.
LIFE WITHOUT BIRD DOGS AND FLY RODS REALLY ISN'T LIFE AT ALL.

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Post by tmanker » Sat Mar 01, 2008 6:34 pm

gonehuntin' wrote:
Especially since this is your first dog, it's going to take you more than a month to get him through force. Were I you, I'd figure 8-10 weeks by the time you've finished him on dowels, bumpers, and birds. A pro will obedience train and force him in six weeks.
I won't argue that because I haven't done it. If it takes 3 months I'm ok with it. I will still hunt over him this fall and winter.
gonehuntin' wrote: If you expose him to pen raised birds in the yard, you'll be teaching him to be steady to point and flush.
I won't formally work on steady to wing, flush and shot the first year. I definitely have a lot to learn in this department.
gonehuntin' wrote:You'll teach him not to push his birds too closely.
Won't a wild bird do this better than a pen bird ever could?


gonehuntin' wrote:With launchers, you'll do that in a matter of days rather than months. You want to keep him on the controlled pen birds and let the wild birds further his education. He'll learn far faster on pen birds.
I don't have the money for a launcher so I will have to explore other options.

gonehuntin' wrote: Why do you think that virtually every pro instills the basics using pigeons or tame birds?
I'm not a pro, so I guess I'm not sure.
gonehuntin' wrote: You also want him handling and retrieving birds before you ff him. If he's a good retirever and you force him, you're really only polishing his performance. Believe me when I tell you that if you just start forcing him and make his first bird encounters unpleasant, you'll be in for a long, tough, road. It has nothing to do with him "smelling" tame birds and everything to do with handling them and learning how he's going to make a living in life from them.
I will shoot birds over him this summer and fall before pheasant opens. He will have had many birds and other animals in his mouth at that point.
gonehuntin' wrote: Who said to let him chew on birds? Most won't, but if they do you don't allow it nor do you punish it. You just get the bird and do it again. Being birdy and handling birds are two different things. Most well bred dogs will point very naturally and very young. Retrieving that bird is a different story. It will be much, much, easier to ff the dog if he already loves to retrieve. It will be much harder if he is not. Force may and may not cure hardmouth. What it does is prevent hard mouth if the dog is not hard mouthed all ready. I don't think you quite understand what's being said here.
I'm not a professional and I will admit that I have a million things to learn. You are correct, I probably don't understand a lot of what's being said. That's why I'm asking.

I should probably add that I'm getting a drahthaar. Don't they teach themselves! :D

Thanks

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Post by gonehuntin' » Sat Mar 01, 2008 7:20 pm

The dog is my Avitar is a Draht. Trust me when I say they don't train themselves. They probably have more prey drive than any other dog which makes them very hard for a new person to train. If I were you, I'd invest the money in Perfect Start, Perfect Finish DVD's and study them. If you do that you'll understand why you teach the dog's in the yard and add wild birds.

With pheasant, you will be training on one of the most difficult of all wild birds for a dog to handle. I believe grouse is the toughest, pheasant is number two.
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Post by jessie » Sat Mar 01, 2008 8:11 pm

Gonehuntin wrote:
"If you expose him to pen raised birds in the yard, you'll be teaching him to be steady to point and flush. You'll teach him not to push his birds too closely. With launchers, you'll do that in a matter of days rather than months. You want to keep him on the controlled pen birds and let the wild birds further his education. He'll learn far faster on pen birds. Why do you think that virtually every pro instills the basics using pigeons or tame birds?"



This doesn't make any sense at all. The only thing you'll teach a pup doing this is that he can crowd birds. Liberated birds will allow a dog to get too close. There is no pen raised bird in the world that will teach a dog bird manners like wild birds will. The last part of your post is insane. Do you think that Ferrel Miller, Andy Daugherty, Rick Barnett, Don Wiggins, Marvin McDowell or any of the big time guys take their string up to Canada every summer to work pen raised birds? They haul all of their young prospects up north for hundreds of wild bird contacts. Maybe the small players use your method but the not the big boys.

Liberated birds are only the last resort answer. If a guy doesn't know how to plant a libby or when to flush the bird or how to flush the bird in front of his particular dog disaster can and will strike.

I have a 11 month old pointer female for instance. She has such bird drive and is so bird crazy that she is in the stage of life right now where she wants to point birds and then see them in the air whether I'm there to see it or not. There is no way in the world that this pup is mature enough to break or to put on libbys with the idea of her holding them worth a nickel. She's just not ready for that. Every dog is different but if you can run your young dog in a spot where you even have one covey of birds then do that. Just don't kill any of them or you won't have any left.

Andy

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Post by gonehuntin' » Sun Mar 02, 2008 8:43 am

jessie wrote:

This doesn't make any sense at all. The only thing you'll teach a pup doing this is that he can crowd birds. Liberated birds will allow a dog to get too close. There is no pen raised bird in the world that will teach a dog bird manners like wild birds will.
You have apparently never used or never seen a launcher used. With a launcher you pop the bird at the exact instant you want, thus controlling the exact distance you want the dog to stand off his birds. No one is saying a dog does not have to be finished on wild birds. The basics are taught in the yard, the wild birds give him his PHD.
jessie wrote: The last part of your post is insane. Do you think that Ferrel Miller, Andy Daugherty, Rick Barnett, Don Wiggins, Marvin McDowell or any of the big time guys take their string up to Canada every summer to work pen raised birds? They haul all of their young prospects up north for hundreds of wild bird contacts. Maybe the small players use your method but the not the big boys.
What I think and know is that those guys do the basics with launchers then get the dog's on the prairies. You can train a dog on wild bird's only if you have the time and the birds, but mine will be hunting competently before yours will by combining the two.
jessie wrote: Liberated birds are only the last resort answer. If a guy doesn't know how to plant a libby or when to flush the bird or how to flush the bird in front of his particular dog disaster can and will strike.
If you keep a dog on a cc or train him on an ecollar first, this rarely happens.
jessie wrote: I have a 11 month old pointer female for instance. She has such bird drive and is so bird crazy that she is in the stage of life right now where she wants to point birds and then see them in the air whether I'm there to see it or not. There is no way in the world that this pup is mature enough to break or to put on libbys with the idea of her holding them worth a nickel. She's just not ready for that. Every dog is different but if you can run your young dog in a spot where you even have one covey of birds then do that. Just don't kill any of them or you won't have any left.

Andy
I'd personally say that you're a long way behind the curve on this dog. My dogs are obedience trained, force broken, collar broken and beginning to staunch on flush at that age. Now let me say this, I don't field trial any of my dogs so to me turning out a competent hunting dog at a young age is my goal.
LIFE WITHOUT BIRD DOGS AND FLY RODS REALLY ISN'T LIFE AT ALL.

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Post by Don » Sun Mar 02, 2008 9:29 am

Jessie,

I am courious. How does your dog learn to be steady? Do you really think that the wild bird is going to teach her the things YOU want her to do so that you can KILL the wild bird? Perhaps you believe that your dog will simply reason the whole thing out? Do you give your dogs an instruction manual to read in their spare time?

Dog's need to be trained beyond simply finding birds. They need to be trained to do it to satisify our needs. The best way is pigeons or wild birds in set up situtations where you can control not only the dog but also the bird.
Never set your dog up to fail - Delmar smith

The greatest room in the world is the room for improvement - William F. Brown

Some people think to much like people and not enough like dogs!

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Post by jessie » Sun Mar 02, 2008 1:26 pm

We have a good discussion going here guys. I like it. Everyone has intelligent views (although different then mine) intelligent just the same.

This is my goal in dogs. I want a finished broke shooting dog that can win anywhere. I'm not looking for derby champions nor am I looking for gundogs. Having said that I have messed with about 300 dogs over my 12 years of doing this and I will be the first one to tell you that I do not have all the answers. I do know this. If you start to put bird manners on a dog on your time schedule and not the dogs time schedule you run the risk of ruining that dog.

What wild birds will do is teach a dog the distance he has to remain from them while pointed in order to have a successful outcome (his nose has alot of say in that too). That outcome being you flushing and killing a bird for him. There are no manuals or anything Don but I can assure you this: when my dogs are broke they stay broke and are over the hill broke. The reason for this is that I train my dogs on the dogs time frame.

I used to cookie cut train all of my dogs and I found that in that process of doing things that way I ruined a lot of dogs because the dogs were not ready to finished on their game. Young dogs have to learn how to go out and find birds and they have to learn where bird likely cover is and how to go about getting to it in an intelligent manner. Most guys simply turn their dogs loose and follow them around and that's how they hunt. That works fine if you have a dog that is close working and doesn't push the limits of handling. My dogs are not that way at all. I spend the first year of their lives teaching them to go with me. I position myself in bird likely cover and make them run a particular place the way I want them to run it, not the way they want to. In doing this I am teaching my youngsters that if you hunt and handle with me we will find birds. That gives a young dog confidence in my ability to handle them into birds and in the right direction of finding birds.

The kind of dog that I'm looking for is not the same kind of dog most people here are looking for. I use a launcher to steady a dog up and they have their place.

Don you asked me how I break my dogs. I get them handling and patterned and going with me first. While I'm doing that I'm running them into as many wild birds as possible not really caring what they do with them or how they handle them (this is when I start shooting over them also. Not killing birds, just shooting over them). I'm not out to teach bird manners at this time. My dogs will tell me when they are ready to be broke. When I can walk up to a young dog that is pointed and move out in front of the dog and produce the bird myself then we have something and I can start that dog on the road to be being a broke shooting dog. You cannot do it until that point in my opinion. I have seen guys who have dogs that have been broke before they are ready and what you get is an unsure dog that doesn't know how to find birds on his own and false points alot. I then will take a dog that is pointing and holding for me reasonably well and whoa break them. A dog may be 12 months old at this point or he may be 2 years old at this point. It varies from dog to dog. I take him and teach him away from birds completely. When I feel 100 percent confident that I can whoa that dog in three different places (what I mean is in the field. at home and down at the neighborhood school for instance) then I will start to flush birds around the dog at home while he is on the whoa plank to get the idea started in the young dog that whoa means whoa and that no amount of bird flushing or shooting is an excuse to move off whoa. When I am confident that the I can whoa the dog in any situation then I start to work the dog in controlled situations. Here is where the pen raised birds or pigeons come in. I like to use pigeons in a remote launcher. I work a young dog in a planted bird and let him establish point. I then move in to flush and I don't say a word to the dog. If he fouls up then I still don't say a word to him. I correct him with the collar and get him stopped and then I will pick him up and set him back one step give him a pop under the chin and a one good hard whoa. I see guys set a dog all the way back to where he started to move but I firmly believe that dogs have no concept of how many steps they have taken so to me setting him back one step is good enough. If my dog starts to move its a collar correction only then set him back then go back to flushing. I see guys all the time out there hollaring whoa a hundred times at a dog to get hime stopped when he fouls up instead of using their collar and I can assure you this; he heard you the first time. I will flush around for a good 30 seconds and then pop the bird with my eyes on my dog the entire time. Once the bird is gone a ways and the dog has stood mannerly then I shoot. If all is in order then I take the dog on and work another bird just the same way. If I have a collapse (and you will if you do it long enough) then I evaluate the collapse and go back the point in my yardwork where I feel the collapse originated and reinforce from there forward and my training session is then over for that day. When I feel that the dog is reliably broke with me there then it's back to wild birds but I will choke the dog in tight and not let him go anywhere (he'll go back to running once you loosen the reigns on him) so that when he contacts game I'm there and the training can start in the field just like in the bird field. The more the dog proves to me that he is worthy of me letting him venture out then the more I will let him venture out and continue to venture out until I feel he is over the hill broke and then it's trial time!

Also one thing too that I found interesting. A launcher will not teach a dog to stand off birds at a respectable distance. That has to do with the birds and more importantly the dogs nose. He can only stand off them as far as he can smell them. If you have ever seen a dog or hunted with a buddy's dog that seems to be into birds alot but busts them alot then it probably isn't a manners problem. He's probably short nosed. Most people don't want to admit it.

A lot of people brag about having their dogs broke when they are 10 month old and that's great. Just keep this in mind. If a guy wants to hunt with me and my dogs with that particular dog then in that 10 month time span that he got that dog broke in he better have taught him to back also. Cuz he's gonna need to proficient at it huntin' with my dogs.

Andy

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Post by WildRose » Sun Mar 02, 2008 2:27 pm

Wow this discussion sure went a long ways past just trying to introduce a young dog to birds in a hurry.

Let me say this, there are as many different ways to properly take a dog from start to finish as there are trainers that are successful at doing it. None of us does everything exactly the same, but somehow we turn out thousands of very nice dogs every year.

There are definitely some points where I both agree and disagree with the advice and statements given so far. I'll highlight a few.
If your not going to introduce the gun in a controlled situtation, at least let the bird get flying AND the dog well underway chasing BEFORE fireing the gun.
I absolutely agree wth this. I want a pup in full chase and bird crazy and "out there" chasing and having a blast when they hear their first shot. As the pup shows more and more boldness we cut the distance we allow them to chase before firing.
Everything you do with a pup, everything you allow with a pup, that you don't want later, you'll have to fix later.
I absolutely agree with this as well. My saying is, don't train anything in you'll have to train out later, unless you have to.
Why do you think that virtually every pro instills the basics using pigeons or tame birds?"
Idon't find this to be true. Every trainer I have known since Delmar Smith in our part of the country GIVEN THE OPPORTUNITY starts dogs on wild birds, and then at some point (Varying with each trainer) finishes up their training on planted birds before taking them back to wild birds. The only trainers I know of that train first and/or exclusively on planted birds are those with no choice.
No one is saying a dog does not have to be finished on wild birds. The basics are taught in the yard, the wild birds give him his PHD.
This is the opposite of what I find to be true. Wild birds build drive, desire, teach a young dog how close is too close without any pressure and when they are ready for heavily structured training they will let you know. The end result is a much more polished finished dog that performs at a much higher level, with much better style and intesity.
What I think and know is that those guys do the basics with launchers then get the dog's on the prairies.
Again, the opposite of what I have learned to be true when trainers have a choice. When they have that choice it's wild birds first, launchers and planted birds second, and wild birds again to put the "finishing touches" on a dog.
Dog's need to be trained beyond simply finding birds. They need to be trained to do it to satisify our needs. The best way is pigeons or wild birds in set up situtations where you can control not only the dog but also the bird.
Right on the money, however I like to start them on the wild birds and let them learn to hunt and have fun before we start the boring yard work and launcher birds.

This:
Posted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 1:26 pm Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

We have a good discussion going here guys. I like it. Everyone has intelligent views (although different then mine) intelligent just the same.

This is my goal in dogs. I want a finished broke shooting dog that can win anywhere. I'm not looking for derby champions nor am I looking for gundogs. Having said that I have messed with about 300 dogs over my 12 years of doing this and I will be the first one to tell you that I do not have all the answers. I do know this. If you start to put bird manners on a dog on your time schedule and not the dogs time schedule you run the risk of ruining that dog.

What wild birds will do is teach a dog the distance he has to remain from them while pointed in order to have a successful outcome (his nose has alot of say in that too). That outcome being you flushing and killing a bird for him. There are no manuals or anything Don but I can assure you this: when my dogs are broke they stay broke and are over the hill broke. The reason for this is that I train my dogs on the dogs time frame.

I used to cookie cut train all of my dogs and I found that in that process of doing things that way I ruined a lot of dogs because the dogs were not ready to finished on their game. Young dogs have to learn how to go out and find birds and they have to learn where bird likely cover is and how to go about getting to it in an intelligent manner. Most guys simply turn their dogs loose and follow them around and that's how they hunt. That works fine if you have a dog that is close working and doesn't push the limits of handling. My dogs are not that way at all. I spend the first year of their lives teaching them to go with me. I position myself in bird likely cover and make them run a particular place the way I want them to run it, not the way they want to. In doing this I am teaching my youngsters that if you hunt and handle with me we will find birds. That gives a young dog confidence in my ability to handle them into birds and in the right direction of finding birds.

The kind of dog that I'm looking for is not the same kind of dog most people here are looking for. I use a launcher to steady a dog up and they have their place.

Don you asked me how I break my dogs. I get them handling and patterned and going with me first. While I'm doing that I'm running them into as many wild birds as possible not really caring what they do with them or how they handle them (this is when I start shooting over them also. Not killing birds, just shooting over them). I'm not out to teach bird manners at this time. My dogs will tell me when they are ready to be broke. When I can walk up to a young dog that is pointed and move out in front of the dog and produce the bird myself then we have something and I can start that dog on the road to be being a broke shooting dog. You cannot do it until that point in my opinion. I have seen guys who have dogs that have been broke before they are ready and what you get is an unsure dog that doesn't know how to find birds on his own and false points alot. I then will take a dog that is pointing and holding for me reasonably well and whoa break them. A dog may be 12 months old at this point or he may be 2 years old at this point. It varies from dog to dog. I take him and teach him away from birds completely. When I feel 100 percent confident that I can whoa that dog in three different places (what I mean is in the field. at home and down at the neighborhood school for instance) then I will start to flush birds around the dog at home while he is on the whoa plank to get the idea started in the young dog that whoa means whoa and that no amount of bird flushing or shooting is an excuse to move off whoa. When I am confident that the I can whoa the dog in any situation then I start to work the dog in controlled situations. Here is where the pen raised birds or pigeons come in. I like to use pigeons in a remote launcher. I work a young dog in a planted bird and let him establish point. I then move in to flush and I don't say a word to the dog. If he fouls up then I still don't say a word to him. I correct him with the collar and get him stopped and then I will pick him up and set him back one step give him a pop under the chin and a one good hard whoa. I see guys set a dog all the way back to where he started to move but I firmly believe that dogs have no concept of how many steps they have taken so to me setting him back one step is good enough. If my dog starts to move its a collar correction only then set him back then go back to flushing. I see guys all the time out there hollaring whoa a hundred times at a dog to get hime stopped when he fouls up instead of using their collar and I can assure you this; he heard you the first time. I will flush around for a good 30 seconds and then pop the bird with my eyes on my dog the entire time. Once the bird is gone a ways and the dog has stood mannerly then I shoot. If all is in order then I take the dog on and work another bird just the same way. If I have a collapse (and you will if you do it long enough) then I evaluate the collapse and go back the point in my yardwork where I feel the collapse originated and reinforce from there forward and my training session is then over for that day. When I feel that the dog is reliably broke with me there then it's back to wild birds but I will choke the dog in tight and not let him go anywhere (he'll go back to running once you loosen the reigns on him) so that when he contacts game I'm there and the training can start in the field just like in the bird field. The more the dog proves to me that he is worthy of me letting him venture out then the more I will let him venture out and continue to venture out until I feel he is over the hill broke and then it's trial time!
Is a variation on how most of the better trainers I know are finishing dogs today.

Again there are as many right ways to do it as there are trainers successful at doing it. Much of the order and mechanics of how different trainers do things has more to do with their access to wild birds than what is right or wrong. CR
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Post by gonehuntin' » Sun Mar 02, 2008 3:02 pm

WildRose wrote: Again there are as many right ways to do it as there are trainers successful at doing it. Much of the order and mechanics of how different trainers do things has more to do with their access to wild birds than what is right or wrong. CR
Yes, that's very true. Around here, there are no wild birds to train a dog on, thus all training is done on pen raised birds.

Also, as most know from previous posts, I most certainly advocate using wild birds but when I have access to them, I do it in conjunction with launchers. It's a meld of the two, not just one or the other. The only time I can do that is in the fall.
LIFE WITHOUT BIRD DOGS AND FLY RODS REALLY ISN'T LIFE AT ALL.

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Post by Thor » Mon Mar 03, 2008 7:20 am

Hopefully I don't repeat someone else's post, I didn't read all of them. :oops: But, what I do and it has worked for me is as follows. First year of the dogs life should be fun and filled with lots of wild birds. After that first season is when you start breaking the dog. Know that doesn't mean you can't do yard work, absolutly do yard work. Teach the pup here, heel and what ever else. What I have found, like so many others, is that the experience of wild birds will build so much enthusiasm. The whole time you are doing the yard work, make noises increasing them as time allows. For example, clap your hands loudly, bang the food dishes around and whatever else you may think of. Where people have a tendancy to get into trouble is when they use a blank pistol. They automatically think, It's a blank and it's not very loud. Those pistols have a very sharp and peircing sound that hurts my ears. I am one those people who believes that you shouldn't rush or hurry a dog. Afterall you are going to that dog for hopefully 12-14 years. And if you want to enjoy that dog for that entire time you will let it mature at it's pace. The dog will give you signals when it's ready to advance. Just my 2 cents. Have a good 1. JW
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Post by Thor » Mon Mar 03, 2008 7:26 am

gonehuntin' wrote:
WildRose wrote: Again there are as many right ways to do it as there are trainers successful at doing it. Much of the order and mechanics of how different trainers do things has more to do with their access to wild birds than what is right or wrong. CR
Yes, that's very true. Around here, there are no wild birds to train a dog on, thus all training is done on pen raised birds.

Also, as most know from previous posts, I most certainly advocate using wild birds but when I have access to them, I do it in conjunction with launchers. It's a meld of the two, not just one or the other. The only time I can do that is in the fall.
I perfer the use of "kick cans" vs. a launcher. I have seen and had many dogs brought to me to try and fix dogs that have been around launchers. I used to use them myself until I seen a couple of "timid" dogs go bananna's when they heard that launchers odd noise when the bird is flung into the air. I will only say this, how natural is it to see a bird rocketed 10 feet into the air combined with that noise? Have a good 1. JW
Nothing beats and early morning rise, be it a trout or a covey.
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Post by Birddog 307 » Thu Mar 06, 2008 7:15 pm

Like I have said there are many different ways to get your dog to a finished level. But I train mine about like gone hunting said. The way Jesse is working his pups will also work. But I can guarantee that I will be hunting mine alot sooner than he can. These dogs will point and hold till I flush they will be steady to flush and they will back. They will whoa and come and heel all well before a year old. There will not be any lack of boldness or desire to find birds. I have never had problem having them go from planted birds to wild birds that a few hunting trips did not teach them. Every dog must learn the difference between a hun or a running pheasant. Only experience teaches them that. Also I have never seen any lack of desire in my dogs not to be the first to find birds. So I am at a loss why there is no reason not to start a dog young. You can start dogs young and not have to apply pressure that can screw them up if you know how to read a dog. You can train at the rate they progress.
Birddog 307

hoffman13954

Re: Introducing a pup to birds...Need advice!

Post by hoffman13954 » Sat Sep 06, 2008 9:42 am

One of my biggest fears of mine has always been to have a dog be gun shy. I heard that it is almost impossible to break them of it. I have used 2 methods on my setters in the past and have had great success. My wife is also a dog obedience trainer which also helps.
The first method was reward based. I put a cap on my muzzle loader, went outside, closed the door behind me and fired the gun in the back yard. I had a dog treat in my hand. I immediately opened the door after I fired the cap and gave my dog the treat. I'm sure you get the picture. I kept doing this through stages- door closed for a couple of days, then door open for a couple of days (wife was holding the dog. and finally fired the gun with the dog next to me. I did this slowly and watched the dogs reaction through the process and treated her on every shot.
The second method was much easier. I went to a hunting club that shoots trap. I parked far away with the car windows up with the dog with me. We could barely hear the shots. I would reward the dog when his ears went up from hearing the shots. I did this over a couple of months. Opening the car windows a little at a time and then moving the car closer and closer to the sound. Then walking the dog around the back of the club house and then eventually walking him up to the area (not too close to hurt his ears) and all he did was sniffed the ground and totally ignored the shots as if they didn't exist.

Good Luck
Daryl

blunder

Re: Introducing a pup to birds...Need advice!

Post by blunder » Sat Sep 06, 2008 12:43 pm

I start my dogs on live birds when the litter is only 5 weeks of age so that they will have no memory of ever being afraid of a flapping wing or a peck on the nose. Makes a big difference for when you ask them to go pick up a wounded goose.

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