Wonder Lead

Texrab · Post by **Texrab** » Fri Mar 18, 2005 7:49 am

I have a wonder lead but have not had much sucess using it. My dog wants to bite it. How can I prevent this? I tried to let him tire himself out but that hasn't really worked. Maybe I'm using it wrong, I don't know. He doesn't bite the leash when walking. I walk him on a pinch collar which works o.k. but when he is not on a pinch collar he pulls for everytyhing he has. I figure I need to start over and get heal down so he will not pull at all. Any suggestions?

Post by **ezzy333** » Fri Mar 18, 2005 8:12 am

I agree with heal being the answer. One other thing you can do is put a half hitch with the leash around his flank. He won't pull on that. But it is easy to teach heal and he needs to know that anyway.

Ezzy

doublea · Post by **doublea** » Fri Mar 18, 2005 11:53 am

Just curious are you talking about the Delmar Smith "wonder lead"? If so..I had one and did not care for it too much.

As to the pulling issue...best advice I can give you is to put the dog on a chain gang and let the dog fight it out on it's own. In a couple of days the dog will learn that it is useless to pull. At which time you can go back to your flat nylon collar and regular leash and train "Heel". Simple as that...good luck

Gregory · Post by **Gregory** » Fri Mar 18, 2005 12:42 pm

I don't know anything about the wonder lead other than a friend whos opinion I repect,said it works. Having said that, I'm also going to say that if you been working on heal with a pinch collar and the dog still pulls while on a plain collar after the command heal is given ,the dog has not learned the leason and needs to go back on the pinch.. IMO.

G

doublea · Post by **doublea** » Fri Mar 18, 2005 1:10 pm

There you go again Greg...breaking dogs. Why not, in this case anyway, let them break themselves? It's a lot easier on both you and the dog you know!? like I said, go with the chain gang and let the dog break itself to lead then train for "Heel". Not saying your way won't work...just that there is a much easier way to skin this cat without leaving your finger print behind!

P.S. How you been doing? Send me an e-mail and we'll chat.

Gregory · Post by **Gregory** » Fri Mar 18, 2005 1:31 pm

doublea wrote:There you go again Greg...breaking dogs. Why not, in this case anyway, let them break themselves? It's a lot easier on both you and the dog you know!? like I said, go with the chain gang and let the dog break itself to lead then train for "Heel". Not saying your way won't work...just that there is a much easier way to skin this cat without leaving your finger print behind!

P.S. How you been doing? Send me an e-mail and we'll chat.

I'm doing fine Dude.But asking me how I am aint going to get you off light :shock: :shock: :shock: No point in going deep with this,I'm sure you had a brain hickup. :shock: :shock: I would have recommended the Chain gang Alen ,If I thought for amoment the chain gang would teach this dog what the owner wants and that is to Heal. How come you heal your dogs walking up and down the gravel road by your kennel,Alen... They learned to do that on the chain gang. :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:

See You in Sept,dude.
G

doublea · Post by **doublea** » Fri Mar 18, 2005 2:28 pm

hey man...long before they learned to heel on a gravel road they paid their dues and tested themselves on the chain gang! Not to mention that while on that gravel road the dog is wearing only a flat nylon collar..no pinch collar...no e-collar and no choker, just a flat nylon collar. What's more they do not pull at all...none of them; but you know that because you seen it with yer own eyes!

Just like building a house my man... you need to start with a solid foundation.....when it come to heel, the chain gang is that foundation!

P.S. Go back and re-read the origional post...pulling is in fact the source of the problem! Fix that and you can teach the dog to heel, ignor the pulling problem and he will never heel right! Right?

Gregory · Post by **Gregory** » Fri Mar 18, 2005 3:02 pm

Seems to me somewhere in his post he said he needs to go back to heel. And that's where I see where the problem lies with this dog .
Teach the dog Heel and you solved the dogs pulling problem .Chain gand the dog and you still have to teach the dog Heel cause as sure as there is a Gods Green Earth the chain Gang aint going to teach this dog or anyother dog how to Heel. Your way only solves part of the problem if it does at all.My offering solves both of his problems at one time.....

Besides Alen the chain gang works best when the dog is still a puppy and it does not work with all dogs,cause you need more than one dog working his neck on the chain gang for best results. Now I was going to let you slide :shock:

But no, not Alan.. :shock: :shock:

G

doublea · Post by **doublea** » Fri Mar 18, 2005 3:40 pm

Dude...read the last sentence of his post! “I figure I need to start over and get heal down so he will not pull at all. Any suggestions?” Obviously the dog is pulling not heeling when there is no pinch collar involved, there-for you break the dog of pulling first and then train him to heel second! Unless of course you want to saddle this dog with a pinch collar for life. In which case an e-collar may be of more value down the road. At any rate and back to the topic, a bonus to this is the issue of biting the lead; I say let the dog bite the cold steel of the chain gang and break himself of this before it potentially becomes a more serious problem. (Not saying that it could or that it would, just that it is possible.)

Bingo, we just solved two problems at one time for good and the handler does not have to knock the dog down, dislocate a shoulder or risk getting bit to get-r-done either! Not to mention the dog broke himself of these problems without you in the picture so there are no possibilities of creating any man shy issues as there very well could be if one was to ruff in the application of your method. Just my opinion take it for what it’s worth to ya.

By the way the chain gang will work just fine for an adult dog. Who told you otherwise?

Gregory · Post by **Gregory** » Fri Mar 18, 2005 4:12 pm

All dogs Alan, pull when being taught to heel.
They stop pulling when the leason has been taught correctly .

I can have a dog stop pulling three minutes in to the leason and heeling by myside in another ten with the aid of the pinch collar. Why do I or he need to waste time on the chain gang and what makes you sure he'll be able to recognize when it was time to get the dog off the chain gang to restart him on Heel. You didn't answer my question.Will the dog learn to heel by being on the chain gang . And would he not have to teach the dog to heel correctly after the chain gang.Answer my questions Alan..

You say if you want them to break them from chewing steel you let them chew steel. Well, Alan I know pleanty of dogs that didn't learn the leason ,many of them ended up getting lost or killed on the highway cause they ate a hole through a 8 gauge galvanised chain link keenel fence. You yourself have a wrecked up heavy gauge aluminum kennel that your dogs ate up.Guess they needed heavier aluminun to learn their lesson on ,eh?

And to answer you last question as to where I heard older dogs don't lean by being on the chain gang. I haven't heard it anywhere .I figured it all by my lonsome that what you were reffering to would have had a better chance at success if the dog was a pup and if there were more than one or two dogs pulling to work his neck.That's what the chain gang is supposed to do Alan work the dogs neck,but you need more than one dog on it for any meaningfull success. This dog will lay down and go to sleep after few tugs .

No. He needs to go back to the pinch collar or to the wonder lead and teach this dog to heel. maybe if he tells us how he attempted to teach this dog to heel. Then may be we might ditect a chink in his prosses and advise him how to make the correction,rather than telling him to put the dog on the chain gang. That's my opinion and it can be taken for what it's worth.. I'm done discussing what I suggested to the gentleman . PM me if you want to continue.

Your pal,Greg.

birddog · Post by **birddog** » Fri Mar 18, 2005 5:49 pm

Gregory wrote.
Teach the dog Heel and you solved the dogs pulling problem .Chain gang the dog and you still have to teach the dog Heel cause as sure as there is a Gods Green Earth the chain Gang aint going to teach this dog or anyother dog how to Heel. Your way only solves part of the problem if it does at all.My offering solves both of his problems at one time.....

Besides Alan the chain gang works best when the dog is still a puppy and it does not work with all dogs,cause you need more than one dog working his neck on the chain gang for best results. [/quote]

I agree with Gregory!
For me the chain gang worked only to teach a dog how to behave on a tie out stake..Leading him to and from the tie out was another matter. He never would walk without pulling even after being tied on the chain.
I don't know if the poster had put the wonder lead on as was illustrated in the directions. The lead is behind the ears and you hold the lead behind and to the side of the dogs head. In no way should the dog have been able to chew at it if used this way.
I had a terrible time making my dog heel until I used the wonder lead. It only took a few quick and positive jerks and he was under control. With repetition, he was heeling in short order. I like it! JMO
Janet
.

Post by **ezzy333** » Fri Mar 18, 2005 7:14 pm

Let me begin by admitting I have no special talent with dog training. That said I'll Bet anything you want to bet I can have the dog healing in 15 minutes. And as I remember dogs at heal aren't pulling so problem solved.

I agree with what Greg said and that doesn't mean putting a pup on the chain is bad. Just isn;t what is needed in this case.

Ezzy

llewgor · Post by **llewgor** » Fri Mar 18, 2005 9:51 pm

sometimes if you don't have the wonder lead position correctly on the dog it does'nt work and the dog will pull. if you have it position correctly the dog can not pull. the lead should be under the neck,around the back of the jaw bone, behind the ears. it should be tight enough so if the dog pulls any you just have to pull slighty with your fingers. you don't have to give it a big jerk like most pinch collars or choke chains. the correction is more instant.

Post by **kninebirddog** » Fri Mar 18, 2005 11:58 pm

The problem you are having with the lead is you are not using it right and more then likely also do not have it in the right position

it needs to be loop side away from you and high up behind the ears...you also have to have release of pressure..if you don't do a tap release tap releaee and this is release of pressure not release of the loop so that it falls down the neck...then it will be ineffective

when you have this the dog will go through a series of charge bulks sulks and then stops ..you really need to read the way to use it as it is extremely effective on all dogs......

I have seen it and have used it .....and the only time i had a problem is when I wasn't using it properly.

and the biggest thing when you do get it right you'll see it is light and easy

but there has to be cause and effect and you really never have to use very much force at all 2 fingers

sudiegirl · Post by **sudiegirl** » Sat Mar 19, 2005 10:16 am

as far as using the wonderlead for teaching heel somehow leaving fingerprints on the dog ... i guess that could happen if you beat the crap out of your dog when you could not figure out how to use it.

obviously JOKING.... but on a serious note... any kind of equipment or training method used improperly can screw up a dog (or at least cause a setback in his training).
speaking from personal experience with several different dogs as well as from watching a pro trainer use it, the wonderlead (used properly) is not only a very effective way of teaching heel, it is very efficient as well. in many cases (in fact in most cases), the fastest way is not always the best way, but one of the reasons the wonderlead is so quick & easy is because there is very little guess work in it for the dog once you are using it properly. used improperly.... it is no more effective than a stiff rope. there is a post somewhere on the forum by decoy showing at least one way to properly position the wonderlead (different positions depending on what you are trying to teach). i think the chain gang is great for some things like teaching respect for the chain, but once you take the dog off of it, you are generally back to square one with the pulling. i just don't see any reason to waste my dog's time for 2 days by leaving him out on a chain and hoping that he figures out that being stuck on a chain hooked to a stake in the ground somehow correlates with not pulling on the collar when i am leading him somewhere. maybe i am misunderstanding the chain gang?? am i mixing it up with something else??
either way.... the wonderlead is a great tool used correctly to teach heel. once my dogs learned to heel, they stopped pulling on all leashes.... even when not asked to heel. using the wonderlead to train a dog is not the only way... and maybe not the best way for your dog (you have to be the judge of that).... but it is one of many effective ways to teach a dog to heel and to not pull on a leash.

llewgor · Post by **llewgor** » Sat Mar 19, 2005 11:08 am

http://www.gundogforum.com/forum/viewto ... ight=#3849
here are the photos.

Gregory · Post by **Gregory** » Sat Mar 19, 2005 11:45 am

Like I said, I have not used the wonderlead . But doesn't that rubber stopper restricts the release .I mean what use does it serve other than to lock the wonderlead in a tight position and why would you want to. Why is it there is what I'm asking.
G.

llewgor · Post by **llewgor** » Sat Mar 19, 2005 12:05 pm

the rubber stopper shortens the amount of time in the correction & holds the lead in the proper place. it is not tight until you pull and you can do that almost instantly with just the movement of your fingers.
kninebirdog & sudiegirl you two can explain this better than me.

Gregory · Post by **Gregory** » Sat Mar 19, 2005 12:48 pm

llewgor wrote:the rubber stopper shortens the amount of time in the correction & holds the lead in the proper place. it is not tight until you pull and you can do that almost instantly with just the movement of your fingers.
kninebirdog & sudiegirl you two can explain this better than me.

Corect me if I'm wrong . I think what you are saying by presseting the rubber stopper you can either shorten or lengthen the stroke. That way your tugs are consistent in nature.
Thanks, it makes so much sense to me that I need to send for one myself..

G.

llewgor · Post by **llewgor** » Sat Mar 19, 2005 2:52 pm

yes but you still what it snug and in the last photo with the ear in the loop you can see the rope has a little play in it and has not been pull tight. also i should say the rope is very stiff, so that makes it tighten and loosen very quickly and hold it's position better. in the third photo you can see the lead has not been pull all the way tight and no one is holding it and it stays in position. also the pressure from the stiff rope makes the dog react.
now look at all photos and imagine loosen the lead a inch or so and the lead slides down around the neck and you loose your pressure points.in the last photo the ear for the stubborn dog

thanks for the pictures decoy

Gregory · Post by **Gregory** » Sat Mar 19, 2005 5:07 pm

Double post,sorry.
G

Gregory · Post by **Gregory** » Sat Mar 19, 2005 5:08 pm

Thanks for explaining,I have a clearer picture yet...

I supose a fellow can get one from Lion Country?
Or is there a supply house that supports this sight..
Thanks again.
G.

sudiegirl · Post by **sudiegirl** » Sat Mar 19, 2005 6:11 pm

yes you can get them at lion country. think of the rubber stopper like the metal buckle on a regular flat nylon collar.... it stays where you set it b/c of the hole(though obviously a rubber stopper can move a little). but you just want it tight enough to hold the lead in the correct position where the ead meets the neck just behind the ears..... which is vital to correctly using it. the point is to be able to instantly correct the unwanted behavior. (see photos from link in above post) maybe phil will jump in here and take over

he is much more knowledgable than i am!!

Gregory · Post by **Gregory** » Sat Mar 19, 2005 7:44 pm

I understand the concept now behind the wonderlead.
I'll order one monday..

Thanks.
G.

Post by **kninebirddog** » Sun Mar 20, 2005 8:13 pm

the rubber stopper ...is Not to be snugged down ....i actually do not use it ...I leave mine at the end using it for the tap tap to come to you....
The nice thing is there is a link on the lyons supply to how to use the wonder/command lead.
I was at an expo this weekend and showed quite a few people with their dogs how well the command leads can work..Just for basic things ..much less getting into the bird trianing

Post by **kninebirddog** » Sun Mar 20, 2005 8:23 pm

Sudi the deal with the chain gandg is not to just leave them there for days ...but in between while your trianing...the 18 inch snug to the ground ..what this is doing is teaching the dog that if it wants release from pressure on the neck it must relax and lay down..or be still then as you go to the dog you have to move forward when the dog is standing there ..not jumping around doing crop circles...this way your training your dog to stand there nicely when you go to it and stand there when you put the lead on to do other things which revolves around training like standing there next to you walking next to you...coming to you....

If your dog can't do this effectively when you are next to them then the performance out in the field will not be to it fullest potential of a dog working with you.

Rick smith said something which when i thought about it was totaly true....your national champions and dogs that are very successful in the field when you go to see them they will be relaxed ..not spinning around acting like idiots....and all the ones that i have had the pleasure of seeing are just like that...not wasting energy.

this is from a person who has handled multiple dogS to HOF/champion status

Duane M · Post by **Duane M** » Mon Mar 21, 2005 11:47 am

As knine said the rubber stopper is not a neccesity and I open my up so it slides easily. The WL when used correctly from my own experience works better than a pinch does on most dogs. I have ones that will honest to gosh pull like heck on a pinch, yes even the old JASA and Kohler types even. These same dogs I taught to heel on the WL with minimal pulling after the start. The timing is the key to it's use and is where most folks go wrong in it's use.

Texrab · Post by **Texrab** » Mon Mar 21, 2005 12:35 pm

Thanks to everyone for the replys. As far as a chain gang goes, I only have one dog so I can not use that method. The wonder lead I have is the Delmar Smith one I believe. It looks just like the picture minus the rubber stopper. Mine has two two stoppers, but they are leather. I got it as a hand me down from someone without instructions. I have trouble getting the leather stopper to stay put. I may just buy another one with the rubber stopper. Thanks again.

llewgor · Post by **llewgor** » Mon Mar 21, 2005 7:36 pm

texrab
the stoppers on my are leather too. one has been soaked with water so it doesn't work as well.
kninebirddog i'm sure you've been to a rick smith seminar or more so you know better than i about the way they use it. on my llewellin i use it like decoy's photos and it works for me. on my gordon it doesn't have to be as snug.

QCBirddogs · Post by **QCBirddogs** » Mon Mar 21, 2005 8:30 pm

I use alot of Rick's methods, if you can weed through the fluff his methods are great. I agree with most of his ways, the main place we differ is the trained retrive and how its done.

The premise behind the wonder lead is instant correction. Also it can be used to teach a dog not to crowd or to walk closer to you. Where this cant be done effectively with a choke collar. Also a good implement to teach your dog to key off of your movements. Training with pressure points is in my opinion the best method.

The use of the washers is a good idea till you get used to the lead. Keeping it in position is the whole idea of its operation.

The whole idea comes from the pigging string. I have had mine custom made with a thicker lariat so its a littel easier on the hands. Yuo will not wear one out with only one or two dogs. In fact if you burry it for a month or so it will work even better.

I drag my lariats behind a tractor for a month or so to break it in!

Phil
REO

Kevin · Post by **Kevin** » Tue Mar 22, 2005 7:50 am

I haven't used the WL much yet.......but I have noticed that it does require a bit of work to use it right, your timing has to be perfect.

What I have noticed is once the dog gets out in front of you the WL lossen its effectiveness as it will work its way down on the neck.(the stopper is not suppossed to be tight)
Even if the dog gets 2 feet in front of you he's got you beat cause the corrections are "supposed" to be straight up and once it's slipped down the neck it's no different than a choke collar.

Post by **kninebirddog** » Tue Mar 22, 2005 10:47 am

what you do is hold your hadn up a bit higher but not gripping and pressure...when the dog even starts to go beyond you you lift up correcting him right there not letting him get in front of you ....it sounds like you are just putting it on and haveing way to much slack....which is allow your dog to get if front and having the lead get down on the neck

even with the quartering you still have to have the lead with no slack BUT not grasping so the you have nothing to work with....

kind of like cat fishing you have to have it taught enough to feel but not so tight you have lifted the weight off the bottom and you can't have it to loose so that you can't tell if you are getting that slight bit to be ready when the fish takes the bait

http://lcsupply.com/delmarsmith.htm

Kevin · Post by **Kevin** » Tue Mar 22, 2005 6:04 pm

Getting the hand of it, made some progress today.

What he tries to do, is run to the end of the lead from the get go, charging right through the corrections. The instructions say use a gentle hand and no constant tension. I think I was being to gentle. I find the lead works better/releases quicker with the rubber stopper backed right off, or not at all.

Post by **kninebirddog** » Tue Mar 22, 2005 7:43 pm

as you get the feel for it...just as your dog is getting ahead of your knee do to light taps and change direction away from him

if the dog tries to push in to you then just knee him away from you ...then tap tap and turn in to him with the lead being held to keep it up but as stated not tight so your leading which way but not pulling if he resists just tap tap on the lead....you'll want to zig zag a bit change directions walk striaght...do not make a pattern this helps the dog to learn to focus on you

then as he gets it the idea you are alpha when he is close to you keeping the same spot you can work a 10 - 2 pattern in front of you doing a tap tap on the neck when YOU want to change direction Not when the dog is wanting to

if the dog bulks and cries on you just walk out in front turn towrds him and tap tap tap slightly unhinging him to make a slight step towards you and just keep tapping till he starts working towrds you on his own then turn and start to walk again

then stop every once in a while having your dog just stand there....aslo when walking change your pace if the dog wants to go fast slow down change direction if the dog wants to go slow tap tap and walk faster

every day expect him to challenge you like do i have to do this again

kind of like a teenager with daily chores ...you know those days when you don't tell them to do the DAILY chore they won't do it...well that is what you will be doing every time you have some extra mintues you be saying you have to do dishes today

tgraham · Post by **tgraham** » Tue Mar 22, 2005 10:13 pm

Kninebirddog gave a great post on the use of the wonder/command lead. Here is a link to an article on Rick Smith's seminar site. It was written by Sharon Potter , who along with Rick writes training articles for the Pointing Dog Journal

http://www.ricksmithkennels.com/article ... ndLead.htm

FTbritts · Post by **FTbritts** » Fri Mar 25, 2005 10:28 am

Caught the tail end of this thread.

Here's a tip on the orig. posters q's.

When first using the wonderlead attach a 6 foot checkcord to the D ring on a plain leather collar, along with the wonderlead. Reason is you won't always have a wonderlead in the field and it is only a tool to get the desired results you are after which is to heel. The next step after this is a learned behavior which you will be only using a checkcord.

When changing directions and when the dog starts to get ahead of you, one long pull towards the direction you are going is better than the tap tap tap at first. After the dog is working for you better the tap tap tap is more of an agitation to set the dog up to respond to what you are asking.

When the dog is biting the wonderlead give a few jerks upwards until the dog settles. The dog is wanting to play and the way I look at it this is "MY" time not his playtime. He can play later. The playing and biting will go away. 15 min. is all you need then put the dog on the chain gang to let them think about it. The chain gang is a very important part of the process. If you put the dog bak in the kennel or run loose you are going backwards in training IMO.

Keep in mind not to use your arms, the action is all in the wrist and always an upward motion, never to the side. If you have a problem dog like you described, tuck one ear under the wonderlead (put the wonderlead in front of one ear and high on the neck. If done correctly you will have the desired results you are looking for.

Good luck in your training