My dog retrives the birds fine, but chomps the heck out of bird before she delivers it. I have heard folks say FF will help solve that problem. Have talked with a couple local trainers and they are saying the cost of FF training runs 6-800 dollars. I have also heard folks say its REAL easy to screw a dog up with FF if I dont know what Im doing. Welp I dont know what Im doing, and I is a poor working folk, dont have the 600 for a trainer.
What are my opions on fixing the hard mouth without hiring a trainer, how hard is it to really screw up the FF training usinig a DvD for frist time?
Dont have an e-collar for same reason...am using a CC and a pinch collar in place of e-collar. Is the a nother trick to stoping the hard mouth?
Thanks
WiskeyJaR
Hard mouth retrieves....
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romeo212000
- Rank: 5X Champion
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- Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2008 12:18 pm
You can screw up a dog with FF big time if you dont know what you are doing. Especially if this is your first time and if you are truly considering doing it I would consider shelling out the money and maybe learning from the trainer for future reference. You can watch DVD's all day long but no better way to learn than from someone who knows how and can help you. Funny thing is that those DVD's and books dont always pick up every possible scenario and then you are left not knowing what to do. You also need to know how to read a dog and to know when enough is enough. FF is sort of high pressure and I dont feel comfortable doing it myself being an amatuer. FF should cure the problem but if that is your only problem is him munching the birds you may not have to go that route. Start having him fetch a frozen bird. That will be a good start.
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Lab Man
Even if you have a Pro force fetch your dog I will still do my homework on the topic. This way you will learn the mechanics, and now how to correct the dog when needed. We all have to force fetch our first dog sometime. Smartfetch by Evan Graham is the best book and dvd I have ever seen on the topic. You can see them at www.coonriverkennels.com
I have just started FF my dog...he became very hard mouthed due to bad habits i did not catch onto....whatchh the smart fetch DVDs...now i am just starting out but i really don't see it being an awful time like people say. i am using the ear pinch the dog is learning nicely and i do short sessions and keep the dog happy.....its working for me and i would rather do it my self and learn from it...now when i put him on holding birds if i do have trouble with him i may try and let a pro work with him but time will tell....
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16gauge
My first dog (American Water Spaniel) became hard mouthed due to mistakes I made when I started training him.....while I wasn't able to totally 'cure' him of the problem, I was able to make it better by: 1.) Using a hard bristle scrub brush instead of a a bumper during a lot of our retrieving sessions, 2.) Using a 'quail harness' when working with planted live birds and 3.) Force Fetch training......and yes, I was worried about screwing up my dog was well, but when I saw the mangled messes that were being returned to me, I figured I didn't have much to loose....it was either that or wait 12 years to get another hunting dog. My advice for training FF is to read as much as you can about the subject and proceed with caution, and if you can get advice from a trainer, so much the better.
FWIW.............
FWIW.............
Thanks for the replies folks. I have ordered Evan Gram's dvd and book on FF....Like 16 Gauge said,
Everything else she is doing fine on, pointing...holding till I approach. She just waits till I go to flush bird, then she attacks. If I dont flush, she will stand her point. Doesnt seem to matter if I come up from behind, to the side, or in front of her.
Dont think I can mess it up anymore then it already is.I was worried about screwing up my dog was well, but when I saw the mangled messes that were being returned to me, I figured I didn't have much to loose.
Everything else she is doing fine on, pointing...holding till I approach. She just waits till I go to flush bird, then she attacks. If I dont flush, she will stand her point. Doesnt seem to matter if I come up from behind, to the side, or in front of her.
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Vandal03
Force fetch is a great excercise - it taught me a ton about my dog and his personality. But definitely do your homework and make sure the dog is ready. It can be pretty intense at first, but don't lose your cool and stick with it through the end. I can tell my dog to fetch ANYTHING now, and he enjoys doing it.
Trekmoor,
No,dog retrives fine, just chops the heck out of the bird. The bird is chewed in half by time she returns to hand...well almost.
I have heard that FF will fix the chopping issue. I also have heard its easy to screw up a dog bad on FF if you dont know what your doing. I dont
She retrives most anythiing I throw, she hasnt been exposed to gun yet. When using pigeons for training, she will hold point till I flush, then pounces on bird and eats it
Have been using a frozen bird the last couple of days, she still seems to want to chew on it while bringing it back to me.
No,dog retrives fine, just chops the heck out of the bird. The bird is chewed in half by time she returns to hand...well almost.
I have heard that FF will fix the chopping issue. I also have heard its easy to screw up a dog bad on FF if you dont know what your doing. I dont
She retrives most anythiing I throw, she hasnt been exposed to gun yet. When using pigeons for training, she will hold point till I flush, then pounces on bird and eats it
Have been using a frozen bird the last couple of days, she still seems to want to chew on it while bringing it back to me.
bird chomper
If I'm reading your posts correctly, it sounds like you have steady/whoa issues that created the bad mouth. I don't know how old your dog is, but if you haven't shot over it yet--I'm guessing it's still young. In my opinion, it sounds like you should've kept your dog on the checkcord, because your dog isn't ready for an unleashed flush. Sounds like your dog equates the flush with dinner, and you've given the blood taste now. A good hunting dog is going to have a high prey drive and will naturally hunt for himself--not you, without the proper training. Most dog people I have talked to, say you should never let a pup in training go after and catch a live bird like that. In fact, we were just talking at our last Navhda meeting about doing some great steady-to-wing exercises..........involving prematurely launching birds on dogs who creep..........so they learn to hold. If they creep or rush--they lose the bird and the funs over. If they hold, they get to eventually retrieve. Our gsp pup is 8 months old, and she's done all her training on a 50' checkcord. We might not be right on top of her when she points, but before we flush, my husband and I will have a light up close hold on her leash. We are just now working off leash, but we still leash her for the flush. Also curious how close your dog is pointing the bird, maybe it's been way to tempting for him to rush the bird. Sometimes the dog isn't going to hit on the bird until he's right over it. But if your dog is doing that every time, you might watch him close to see when he actually hits on the scent. If your dog is really hitting on the scent 20' away, but runs up another 15' and finishes with a sight point--you need to haul his butt back to the 20' mark and "whoa" him there. This happens every now and then with our pup. Not sure how helpful my info is, as you might be past the point of reworking things out, and I'm guessing your only solution is force fetching. We haven't had to do that with our pup, so I'm no help there. Are you a Navhda member? You can google the site an find where your nearest club would be. It's been a great tool for us to learn from more experienced people. My club has regular monthly meetings, everyone is very helpful, and I'm sure someone professional can get you started with force fetching. Check it out. Good luck!!!
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gonehuntin'
- GDF Junkie
- Posts: 4868
- Joined: Tue Dec 12, 2006 5:38 pm
- Location: NE WI.
Whiskey; when you have a well trained dog, you get that well trained dog by meeting problems head on and solving them. If your dog is truly hard mouthed, it is probably a job for a professional. If you don't have the money for that, buy Evan Graham's Smart Fetch DVD and study it. Many young dog's, especially the German breeds, have that propensity to chomp and mouth a bird when they first pick it up. Sometimes it goes away with age, sometimes not. Don't take the chance. At the very least, put the dog through a very complete course on hold. That may do it. GSP'S can be incredibly difficult dogs to give a total ff course to. I think sometimes you're further ahead just teaching hold.
LIFE WITHOUT BIRD DOGS AND FLY RODS REALLY ISN'T LIFE AT ALL.
Whiskey, to go by your posts you are getting mixed up between pointing and flushing and retrieving. A flush should not mean a retrieve whether you flush the bird or whether the dog does. I do not even call that a retrieve, I.M.O. it is pegging.
I'm aware you do things a bit different over the pond but not that different! For a dog to be able to do that to a flushed bird means that the dog is probably far too close to the bird it is pointing. You are using pigeons, they can be scented and pointed from considerable distances. I understand you are doing the flushing ? If that is the case the dog must be breaking point from very close to you to be able to catch the pigeon before it flies off.
I would work on getting the bitch completely steady to flush and not depend on F.F. training alone to "cure" this problem. I.M.O. your bitch should be taught that a bird rising or flying is a steadiness command in its own right. I expect my dogs to sit to the command of a bird flushing with no further command from me of any kind. The flying or rising bird IS the command to sit. Don't know if this kind of training would suit you but this problem of yours is originating from flushing not retrieving.
That's my understanding of it anyway.
Bill T.
I'm aware you do things a bit different over the pond but not that different! For a dog to be able to do that to a flushed bird means that the dog is probably far too close to the bird it is pointing. You are using pigeons, they can be scented and pointed from considerable distances. I understand you are doing the flushing ? If that is the case the dog must be breaking point from very close to you to be able to catch the pigeon before it flies off.
I would work on getting the bitch completely steady to flush and not depend on F.F. training alone to "cure" this problem. I.M.O. your bitch should be taught that a bird rising or flying is a steadiness command in its own right. I expect my dogs to sit to the command of a bird flushing with no further command from me of any kind. The flying or rising bird IS the command to sit. Don't know if this kind of training would suit you but this problem of yours is originating from flushing not retrieving.
That's my understanding of it anyway.
Bill T.