how soon to teach whoa?

rightturnclyde · Post by **rightturnclyde** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 2:00 pm

hoping someone could help me out on this...this is my first pointer
i have a 4 mo.old gwp.. last week i got 6 chukars and worked her up on them. she did great, me not so much...the situation outsmarted me a couple a times,she caught two of them.. my bad for that. in my defense
the snow here in WI is !@#hole deep couldn't grab the cc in time.
back to the main question....should i begin teaching "whoa" now or let her get a little more bird work first.
probably not a big deal but thought someone could help me out and save me little effort in fixing a problem later (if thre would be)
thanks

thunderhead · Post by **thunderhead** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 2:15 pm

I would not teach her whoa yet. Build her prey drive and indepence before you do that and let her mature a little.

You can use launchers to control the flush of the bird. You can also put the birds down very light in cover that will be easy for them to flush from.

I have been wearing snow shoes while training. It does make it a lot easier to get around, as it is deep out there.

bobman · Post by **bobman** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 2:17 pm

IMO wait to after this fall if she hunts a lot, then do it next summer.

Vandal03 · Post by **Vandal03** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 2:23 pm

I'm not an expert, but the best thing I ever did for my first dog was to stop using whoa around birds. The theory I subscribe to is that wild birds should teach a dog to be staunch on point - and whoa can come in handy for steadiness work later or to just teach a young dog to stand still for awhile.

Post by **kninebirddog** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 2:25 pm

What you can do is a dinner time start making the dog stand till the bowl is down if the dog moves forward lift bowl up until the dog is standing not leaning forward or against the collar should you start with the collar then bring the bowl down do not say anything the dog will begin to learn when they stand still dinner comes down move forward the bowl goes up...my 5 month old pup I have her now where i can get the bwl to the ground and move my hand away and she is standing for about 3 seconds on her own and i say Ok for her release that is a lot for a young dog but we have been playing this game for a couple months now

You can also do some little games in the yard with a lead where she walks with you with little tugs on the leash or lead then a constant light lift till she stops moving and as soon has she has stopped release the light lifting...it is a pre training for a tap for a move with you when moving like quartering excersises then a constant till stopped for a stand still command..if you get hte pup to respond to this with out words then adding the words will be easier

romeo212000 · Post by **romeo212000** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 3:15 pm

right now I would just do as suggested above. She is still very much a baby and all I did until about 6 or 7 months of age as far as steadyness is make her stand and wait for her food. That way you are sort of sub consciously teaching her. But do use the woah command when doing this. At about 7 months I started woah training but only on walks and runs and not on birds for about a month and a half. I sent her to a trainer to help steady her up among a few other things. Hopefully I won't ever have to use woah around birds because I know she will be steady. To me that is more impressive than the guy who screams WOAH as soon as his dog goes on point. I do plan on using it during training and hunting very rarely though. Just if I see her start to creep I will commandher to woooaaahh as sort of a caution to her. If she continues to move I release the bird and dont shoot it. Therefore I reinforce the idea that if you are not steady the bird gets away. Where a lot of people destroy a lot of time and money put into training is they forget that the hunting is really about the dog and they shoot those birds that the dog was not steady on. Do that a couple of times and you have to back track. I've seen the same thing happen in field trial dogs in NSTRA trials. The owner is so intent on competing and earning a few points that they continue to run a dog in trials once a dog has displayed a training problem rather than pulling them from trials until the problem has been fixed. If you do what/'s best for the dog and do that then you will end up with a far better dog in the long run.

rightturnclyde · Post by **rightturnclyde** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 4:18 pm

hey guys thanks for the advise!!
very helpful
makes sense to build confidance on birds
the using whoa away from birds until it is time to use it around them sounds like a good primer
got outbid on snowshoes on e-bay but were gonna get into the 40s
a couple days this week.
she (ruby ) has never seen bare ground yet!

Buckeye_V · Post by **Buckeye_V** » Tue Mar 11, 2008 6:11 pm

We use a very similar tactic that knine does. It works great. We transition the setup and enforcement to all places we take the dogs. Doorways, kennel doors, truck tailgates, lawns, sidewalks, fields, woods, barns, etc.

You can train a dog and they don't even know they are being trained. Works for us, anyways.....

Justin

TrueBlu Shorthairs · Post by **TrueBlu Shorthairs** » Wed Mar 12, 2008 8:29 am

Get her out to free run once snow melts some, lots of happy timing, no birds if she's catching them, house obedience, no WHOA yet, let her learn to run, hunt, be independent and bold. She's only 4 months and there's PLENTY of time. New owners are hot and giggly to "train", just remember fun runs ARE training. Wait on whoa until summer and once she is an independent hunter. Catching birds does little good for a dog, but not to worry, she's only 4 months.

gmanksu · Post by **gmanksu** » Wed Mar 12, 2008 5:14 pm

The dog will tell you when they are ready, when they have bumped andchased enough birds that they start standing birds on their own, without checkcord or collar intervention without breaking they are ready to be whoa broke. Right now all you should be concerned about is teaching that pup, "No, don't chew that up" and coming when called.

petey · Post by **petey** » Sun Mar 16, 2008 7:20 pm

IMO whoa is just a command like here or come or whatever you use. I start teaching my pups whoa at a couple months old using the buddy stick. It has nothing to do with birds at this time, it's just a command to stand still. Just make sure that you don't get excited and use it around birds at this early stage. I feel like the whoa command should not be used around a pup until it's starting to hold it's birds pretty well on their own using no commands at all. If you don't have your pup to where it will stop on your command before you get into serious bird work your going to have problems. Some of the time you'll see a dog let down on style when their on point as soon as the owner says whoa and that's probably a dog thats been taught the whoa command around birds. Not Good. It's a fairly long process but worth it in the long run if you'll take your time and teach your dog whoa without being so forceful with it, that's why I start with the buddy stick then when ready move to the check cord and then to the e-collar. If you take your time your can whoa your dog in the field and it will look like it's on point. You need to have your dog around birds all the time but just don't use whoa until it knows what whoa means. Just my opinion. P.S. try very hard not to let your pup catch birds.

Don · Post by **Don** » Sun Mar 16, 2008 7:30 pm

TrueBlu Shorthairs wrote:Get her out to free run once snow melts some, lots of happy timing, no birds if she's catching them, house obedience, no WHOA yet, let her learn to run, hunt, be independent and bold. She's only 4 months and there's PLENTY of time. New owners are hot and giggly to "train", just remember fun runs ARE training. Wait on whoa until summer and once she is an independent hunter. Catching birds does little good for a dog, but not to worry, she's only 4 months.

Boy I couldn't agree more with this! I believe that one of, if not the most important time with the pup is happy timing as a youngster. The pup will learn so much. If you do your job you'll have a pup running to the front, tackling any cover, looking in the right plaes for birds, turning wit you and even coming when its called. The stage is pretty much set right here for what you'll have later.

rightturnclyde · Post by **rightturnclyde** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 7:42 am

hey guys just a little update; after reading the advice given here i have been doing a little whoa training AWAY from birds with some treats.
ruby is catching on great!! treats and puppies

along with lots of happy time stuff. took pup out yesterday with a frozen woodcock, tossed it into cover, took pup downwind and "hunted"that area.i thought she had a good nose a round the yard,but in true hunting cover she really impressed me!! she even showed up my 6yro lab a couple of times!!!but once he figured she meant business he turned it up a notch. anyway i'm sold- happy time puppy stuff made her much more bold in different types of cover.
gonna put her on some hen pheasants this weekend, she shouldnt catch them, i'll plant them and give them time to move around before i send pup
a little pricey but we aint in this to get rich

thanks again for the advice- saved me a lot of grief!!

Post by **kninebirddog** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 8:39 am

WHOA SLOW DOWN

4 month old pups and hen pheasants are not a great combo

...i would find some pigeons

I know it is so exciting a pup did something with a frozen bird..your pup needs to mature
play some training games undercontrol.

many pups get over done by over zealous owners who get excited about things a pup does and then get frustrated when a pup turns about 6-8 months old and mature out of the angelic age and start testing their own wings

TrueBlu Shorthairs · Post by **TrueBlu Shorthairs** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 9:02 am

A few tosses with a frozen bird to get them fired up for retreiving is just fine. Working them on frozen birds doesn't do anything but cause problems. Dogs scent breath and body scent and need both to be most effective. Birds need to be able to escape, not be dead and frozen.

Don't much like the pen pheasant idea much either. A slightly timid pup or a pup hit in the face with a wing can cause a big problem that is hard to cure. Hard flying bobs or very slightly dizzied pigeons are far better.

Buckeye_V · Post by **Buckeye_V** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 2:06 pm

My boy does "all right" in the field. No confidence or ranging issues. That's for sure.

The idea is to start for subtly and work very slowly. The pup does not even know they are being trained.

Everyone has their opinions and methods. I'm just saying it worked for us and for this pup. The next one may not work. Who knows.

Justin

Blue Briar · Post by **Blue Briar** » Thu Mar 20, 2008 1:47 pm

He is still young but each dog is different and with care and caution you can train whoa without any problems (very softly). The dog in my avatar started whoa training at about 5 months and has done no apparent harm. He is now 8 months olds pointing a pigeon in that pic.

TrueBlu Shorthairs · Post by **TrueBlu Shorthairs** » Fri Mar 21, 2008 7:09 am

However, depending on the amount of time you have to train, and how you mix it all up, plus the dogs demeanor, will tell you what age to put whoa on the dog. So many of us who have jobs are limited in the time, particularly during the week, we can train. New owners usually have kids, jobs, etc. etc. We may have an hour in the evening at most. So, we want to "train". A young dog needs experiences far more than whoa at a young age. Getting a dog out to learn to hunt, to run, to be indpendent, to handle, to go to the front, to find and point birds, is more important than anything else. A 6 month old pup, who is ranging well, has pointed birds, holds them well, is getting pretty independent, ranging well, now that dog might be very ready for whoa. A dog that's a little timid, hasn't seen too much, hasn't had a chance to get out and hunt, to become CONFIDENT in what he is doing, is most likely NOT ready for much but trips to Petsmart, to the park, to shortcut fields, etc. etc. No two dogs are alike. Because one dog had whoa put on him at 3 months and ended up a Field Champion means squat. There is no cookie cutter methodology. All things in time, when the dog is ready, and properly measured, will create the best dog possible IMHO.

Blue Briar · Post by **Blue Briar** » Fri Mar 21, 2008 10:41 am

Very well said Tru Blu, I totally agree with you that there is no timelines in which your dog is ready, you must know yourself on how mature he is. My situation started of with a very shy and unsocial pup. I started throwing pigeons for him about three months ago and only did it once maybe twice a week and before you knew it he had come out of his shell and showed signs that looked promising. I then proceeded to do short walks with him teaching him heel and whoa(again very softly) and he progressed through it very nicely.(only 4 times a week and only 10 minutes a night). I would not consider this dog whoa broke but he is well on his way, he understands what it means and does it well but he still trys to test me but I am still not applying pressure to him so I do not try to whoa him where I know it will require reinforcement( I will leave that for a later date, when I know he can handle some pressure). I now and steadying him on his birds now and doing very nicely in my opinion but again I am appling no pressure and doing it under controlled situations.

rightturnclyde · Post by **rightturnclyde** » Mon Apr 07, 2008 7:11 am

well i skipped the pheasants for training and went w/ quail...
set bird out in low cover w/ dog on cc, pup watches bird, pup goes nuts...
let bird get a head start, cc'd pup works bird , busts bird...repeat
dog understands she cannot catch winged creature, locks up,
etc... instinct follows, pup is locking on birds and holding (of course she experimented w/sneaking and pouncing which didn't work)
as far a whoa training i have worked her away from birds with this and she is doing good. i agree with the " read the dog " method every dog is different. some people may disagree but that's okay . this method is working for pup so far. i also realize that this the magic "honeymoon" period where the pup is learning and can do little wrong, master can do plenty wrong!! (which i will try to avoid)
any way thanks to all for the advise!!

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how soon to teach whoa?

how soon to teach whoa?

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