Is there a such thing as overdoing it?

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MasterScout

Is there a such thing as overdoing it?

Post by MasterScout » Sun Apr 06, 2008 4:39 pm

I have a 13wk old GSP. He will point planted birds in the launcher and already i can walk by him to flush..he has alot of prey drive in him..I have been using the Perfect Start methods of training..I was just wondering if it was possible to over do it with training with birds, like how much training time should be put into a pup of this age?

Ryan Baumann

Post by Ryan Baumann » Sun Apr 06, 2008 4:50 pm

you can over do it. It sounds like you are doing it right. Just read the pup and keep it fun! sounds like you have a awesome pup.

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Post by smittysmith777 » Sun Apr 06, 2008 5:10 pm

I agree sounds like your right where you sould be with a good pup

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Rick Hall
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Post by Rick Hall » Sun Apr 06, 2008 5:18 pm

You betcha you can over-do puppy bird work!

Might bore 'em and dull their interest - or you might send 'em "one toke over the line" and see good behavior blow up into a wilding spree that sets you back.

Better to work a bird or two well then let pup go rip, roar, explore and develop his independent hunt for a while in a likely birdless area before showing him another bird.

(Maybe I shoulda put an avatar showing one of my pointing dogs with this one???)
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ezzy333
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Post by ezzy333 » Sun Apr 06, 2008 6:46 pm

Your schedule might work but i wouldn't be doing what you are doing till the pup is 10 or 12 months. I want my young pups running, exploring, and learning what objectives look like. There will be plenty of time to teah the pup how you want it done but first he has to learn where and how to find a bird. You are cheating him out of his learning time sometimes called happy time.

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Rick Hall
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Post by Rick Hall » Sun Apr 06, 2008 6:50 pm

We could have quite a debate over that.
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kninebirddog
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Post by kninebirddog » Sun Apr 06, 2008 7:09 pm

Yes you can over do it

Leaving a pup wanting more is very very key at a young age

get a pup looking like an adult dog can lead to burn out down the raod also

like when a little league player who does a great job then gets pushed to far by over zealous parents and coaches ... burns out and quits

keep the field shorrt and fun

keep sessions short and fun


nothing wrong with some bird work ...i only work my baby pups maybe once a week on birds on average ....to easy to get excited when they do well to want to do more...that can lead pushing to failure to fast

so just remember a 13 week old is a puppy...and in a few weeks he will change and that angelic stage will pass to testing and figuring out paramters and spreading his wings...expect it it is part of their growing up
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MasterScout

Post by MasterScout » Sun Apr 06, 2008 7:39 pm

He always has fun when we go out to the field...When he sees the checkcord he gets really excited because he knows its time to have fun...I do not push anything on him at this time.. when introducing to birds I went to the methods of the Perfect Start video and when he moves the bird flies..After a few times he learnt not to move..

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Rick Hall
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Post by Rick Hall » Mon Apr 07, 2008 4:59 am

vzkennels wrote:Unless you want a mechanical dog that is more like a robot then a dog that can do things on his own I have to agree with Ezzy.Too much obedience at too early age can relly take out their style & idependence.Let him be a puppy & have some fun first.
Perhaps if you train a pup as you would an adult dog and also carry the training into early field time, rather than play training and compartmentalizing it from a balance of field time where pup's free to develop independent hunt. Never tried the former, but know the later turns out well mannered and happy hard hunters without the need for "breaking" tactics down the road.
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Post by smittysmith777 » Mon Apr 07, 2008 8:09 am

I like my dogs holding birds and shooting over them at 16 weeks. I was shooting birds over my last pup at 13 weeks old that dog is now 15 months and I have shot 235 birds over himand is allready all the dog Icould ever hope for great dog steady&retrieves

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Re: Is there a such thing as overdoing it?

Post by WildRose » Mon Apr 07, 2008 10:57 am

MasterScout wrote:I have a 13wk old GSP. He will point planted birds in the launcher and already i can walk by him to flush..he has alot of prey drive in him..I have been using the Perfect Start methods of training..I was just wondering if it was possible to over do it with training with birds, like how much training time should be put into a pup of this age?
You can absolutely over do training especially with a pup of that age.

For the most part for the first year all my dogs get is a little work on here, playing fetch, and all the running in wild bird country I can manage for them.

They need time to enjoy being a puppy and growing up and learning what it's all about before any pressure is put on them.

Too much, too soon, too often can and does cause problems later with confidence (result flagging on game) and independence (end result dog afraid to range out and hunt) both of which can be very difficult to work through later.

A dog that learns to have fun and be bold young will be one that's a whole lot harder to screw up down the road when it is time to put the pressure on them. CR
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TrueBlu Shorthairs

Post by TrueBlu Shorthairs » Mon Apr 07, 2008 11:21 am

Don't know that being bold and having fun has a whole lot to do with how they take to steadying later. I've seen run offs that won't take any pressure whatsoever.

However, so many want to "train" their dogs so they put them on tons of pen birds as they hear and read "birds, birds, birds". Training includes socializing, getting them out with older dogs who have good range to help the dog develop range, planting birds on far edges to get them to range, putting them on as many wild birds as possible, etc. The dog is only 3 months old, pretty young to be too excited about the dog wanting to be steady. So many at that age, haven't even developed enough to know to chase. It's wonderful to have a dog that wants to please. But, get the dog to depending so much on you he doesn't learn to hunt and actually search for birds will create problems down the road. Get him out to free run with no birds, short cut fields, little heavy cover, don't hack at him, let him learn that independent searching is a positive trait.

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WildRose
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Post by WildRose » Mon Apr 07, 2008 11:43 am

I think there's a huge difference in a pup that is bold and confindent and a self hunting run off that sees it's owner as nothing but transportation to the field.

Blake, isn't this "
But, get the dog to depending so much on you he doesn't learn to hunt and actually search for birds will create problems down the road. Get him out to free run with no birds, short cut fields, little heavy cover, don't hack at him, let him learn that independent searching is a positive trait.
pretty much a repeat of what I said here
Too much, too soon, too often can and does cause problems later with confidence (result flagging on game) and independence (end result dog afraid to range out and hunt) both of which can be very difficult to work through later.
with respect to range and independance. If so I don't know what we're in disagreement over. CR
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WildRose
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Post by WildRose » Mon Apr 07, 2008 11:52 am

smittysmith777 wrote:I like my dogs holding birds and shooting over them at 16 weeks. I was shooting birds over my last pup at 13 weeks old that dog is now 15 months and I have shot 235 birds over himand is allready all the dog Icould ever hope for great dog steady&retrieves
Smitty with Cracker and Sissy as well as a few hundred before I did the same thing. However I didn't use any pressure at all to get them staunch, just let them figure it all out on their own. Not even a cc'd involved.

It's very easy though to over do the "training" hands on/physical or collar work on young pups though which absolutely does often cause problems later down the line.

As a rule most of my own personal dogs I've always simply started them by taking them hunting, then we work on the discipline and obedience after the first season. It works quite well whether they are three months old or 20 months old as long as they know "Here" and to stay out front. CR
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smittysmith777
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Post by smittysmith777 » Mon Apr 07, 2008 3:04 pm

I agree 100% wildrose it is easy to over train and you sould not push a pup but sometimes you get a pup that just falls in line and has fun doing it.IM SORRY I WAS JUST BRAGGING

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Post by smittysmith777 » Mon Apr 07, 2008 4:03 pm

IM sorry. wild rose I guess I was just bragging you are 100% RIGHT dont push a pup. BUT SOME pups justcome right along and fall right in line and have fun doing it

TrueBlu Shorthairs

Post by TrueBlu Shorthairs » Tue Apr 08, 2008 7:24 am

"A dog that learns to have fun and be bold young will be one that's a whole lot harder to screw up down the road when it is time to put the pressure on them. CR"

That was where I disagreed Charlie. Being bold and independent has litte to do with how a dog will react to pressure later on. Some of the softest dogs I've seen were some of the boldest most independent dogs.

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WildRose
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Post by WildRose » Tue Apr 08, 2008 10:17 am

Some of the softest dogs I've seen were some of the boldest most independent dogs.
That would be a very bad combination, I'm glad I haven't had to deal with it. CR
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