force fetch part 4

[Ryan Baumann]

Well we finally hit the ground. Sage is doing quite well but they call it force for a reason. I am really enjoying this training. i am learning alot about my dog for sure. It should be smooth sailing from here on out. Practice makes perfect and she is showing me that she will do it so here ya go.
This was the first session on the ground.





Never give up and never get mad.
__________________
CHUKARORBUST YA THAT'S ME!!

[Casper]

Ryan I am going to be pretty negative here. First let me say this. I have not done FF yet but do understand the complete concept.

What I am seeing in your dog is a ton of fear. She does not want to pick up your thrown objects. A properly FFed dog wants that object in its mouth. They want this because you showed them how to hold those objects while strapped to the post.

Your object you are using should be placed away from the dog not thrown. This way you send the dog with the command waiting for the refusal. Once and only once you get a refusal do you apply stimulation. Give the dog a chance to make the right decision. Give the command once and only once than apply stimulation. If your dog is not responding the dog is confused (Like I think your dog is). You need to go back to the table and start over with properly making the association that the pain from the toe hitch is the same pain she is getting from the e-collar. Many people overlay to the ear pinch from the toe hitch to aid in this association.

You as the dogs trainer need to be still. All that movement you are doing is unnecessary and added confusion to the dog. Try and make things the same. Build that repetition. Although I dont get any audio fro your video I bet you are speaking allot to the dog . Try and keep you mouth shut except to give thefetch command and a recall command.

Those last few retrieves each one the dog made a refusal and tried to escape the stimulation from the e-collar. She is doing this because she does not understand why she is getting shocked. She is so confused that if you keep this up she will never understand what you want.

I think that you think you are making progress when you are actually setting your self back in training. I have watch each one of your videos and in each one all I seen was you moving to fast without making the proper associations. You never made the connection between the force and the fetch. From what I understand most trainers do most every bit of training on the table. They never move to the ground until the dog is 100% on the table.

I would say you should go back to the table and get 100% compliance on a verbal command before you even attempt moving to the ground. I would even go out on a limb and say you should start from the beginning. Start by strapping the dogs head to the post. Starting with just basic holding than move to force but this time with the ear pinch. You could use the toe hitch but later I would suggest overlaying the ear pinch to aid in making the connection to the e-collar. Make slow progression and only move on to more advanced stuff when you are 100% on the one task.

Pros can get great results on a short amount of time but they get paid for that. You are an Amateur you get to take your time. It doesnt have to happen over night. Slow down and do it right.

FWIW

[Don]

Good call Casper. If anybody else saw this you'll also see the results of relying on the collar to train rather than training and then reinforcing with the collar. Ryan is getting some heavy criticism over on PDJ and he's really taking it well. Hang in there Ryan. Wish I could have loaded those other clips.

[snips]

I am not a fan of ecollar FF training on birddogs for this reason, it causes lots of stress. It is too hard to control exactly what stimulation a dog is getting, esp for a newbie forcing a dog. Many times I can get the desired reaction by just reaching for the ear or touching the ear without overdoing a correction. Giving a dog every chance to comply is the best way, yes it is force, but I like to believe it is also working together.

[Ricky Ticky Shorthairs]

This might sound a little harsh too!! All i see is a dog that has had its rear end tied up to a pole and it's toes yanked on, all happening pretty fast ie.. lets do it 50 times real fast, not, lets do it 10 times slowly, with lots of praise in between. LET THE DOG LEARN BY DOING IT RIGHT, NOT FAST.

I never did see the transition to the collar, except when the dog was on the ground getting zapped for not doing what it wasn't taught properly.

I think the e-collar is a great tool when FFing. I use the method developed by Jim and Phyliss Dobbs. VERY effective, only low level stim. after the dog already knows the action, and after properly introduced.

This method has never produced a dog that feared retrieving or the collar, on the contrary, the loved both of them. We even worked on different retrieving drills, to work on speed, and consistancy. The collar works great for these kinds of things, when used properly. (Not like what we've seen in this FF4)

I have seen the other end of the spectrum also, the collar was always on high, and it wasn't pretty. Got results, but pretty physical too.

This dog does not understand why it's being shocked. And it's scared to death!!

I would say you should probably get some help from a pro, I can guarantee you are going to have problems with this dog after you think you are done.

I'M NOT TRYING TO BEAT YOU UP, but it was kind of painful to watch that dog go through that kind of fear, especially when he's not learning anything, just reacting.

I'm no pro, but I've done a half a dozen or so, with the Dobbs method with good results each time, they are retriever people and are very knowledgeable about FF. www.dobbsdogs.com

Doug

[Ryan Baumann]

thanks guys. I used the collar twice in the hole video. But I truely apreciate tour advice. This is really what it is like though. The five minute promo in a training video doesn't do it justice. Remember I am showing the first session of each step not the last??????????????? I do have alot to learn and apreciate the advice and oppionins as it broadens my training.

ryan

[kninebirddog]

Ryan...the complete body language of your dog tells the whole entire story

Yes I am trying to drill in a couple points on a few sites in for your dog and hopefully you

not trying to beat you up....but it does need to be stressed if you really want to get to your goal with your dog

[Yawallac]

Ok, I guess I'm seeing this differently then most here. I have FF'd a lot of dogs over the years and most became VERY happy retrievers!

The demeanor in this Pointer is VERY typical. The "happiness" will return once the training is done. IMO, this is very normal behavior during this stage of FF ...and I think the dog is doing very well. JMO.

[gonehuntin']

I've gone trough this on another forum with Ryan and told him step by step what I thought was wrong with the dog and with Ryan. For you new comers to this, the dog is confused, has poor obedience and is not paying attention. Ryan tried to extend the dog too fast and if you watch the video, actually throws the bumper a couple of times when the dog is looking the other way.

The dog is being extended too fast. I'd dump the butt strap and control the dog with obedience and start on the bench again. Ryan is very lucky that this is a pliable dog. He may well not be so lucky on the next one.

I don't care that the dog looks a little depressed. That's force. The problem is the confusion.

[Ryan Baumann]

I know my dog and she is doing fine. Am I doing it perfect???? We'll see in a couple weeks I suppose.

[snips]

I can't get the video (dial-up) but the jist of the thing is discussed. I will never throw the dumbell first time on the ground. I will start by putting object in the dogs mouth and walking him around and tell him hold. I will then do babysteps so he understands fully that on the ground he does the same as on the table. Most dogs on the ground feel like it is their territory and will automatically refuse. I want as little conflict as possible starting in a new place, so I will help the dog all I can to get it right. I then hold it in front of his face saying Fetch. When the dog is grabbing it and walking to me I will start slowly to the ground until the dog fully understands what it is I want of him. FF should always be done in babysteps to prevent confusion.

[kninebirddog]

Wow and people accuse brittanys of being soft

Sorry ..When you have to pick up the pieces of dogs that have been poorly FF you start to look at dogs body language much differently. Thankfully I went and learned cause Bob and I have had to help an average of a dog a year that someone tried to teach FF and shut the dog down.

a dog that is confident doesn't go slinking crouching and flat laying down to pick up a item after having to be redirected to the object...that is to much, to fast the dog is confused and the veering away is pure avoidance.



Good luck ........I think the majority of the people on different sites have given you some very solid advice snips does FF as part of her profession also and she does a very good job with a dog moving confident.

its your dog....enjoy


Later

[highcotton]

Josh used to hold his foot out for you to string up his toes,

He actually seemed to enjoy the entire process. Of course he is a little srange,