Gun Dog Forum

AKC definition Amateur?

I have in the past trained several labs in basic obedience and started retriever training for money. I have in the past started puppies for club members for money and "fixed" gunshyness and bird shyness for money. I just finishes my fisrt SH (3 of his 5 legs put on by Brenda. THANKS!) He is the most steady dog I have ever trained, thus far, in upland work, and much of his training was also done by Brenda. Thanks Brenda

It has been 5 years since I have been paid for any type of training at all.

I have never run in a field trial, trained a dog to run in a trial, had a dog place in a trial etc...

Does the fact that I was paid for the puppy stuff and gunshyness and such preclude me from running my dog in Amatuer stakes in AKC? I do not want to "push the limits." Or stir any trouble. Just that I would like to try a few walking trials and see if I like it. Many of the walking stakes are Amateur.

Thoughts?

An Amateur is one who during the period of two years preceding the trial has not accepted remuneration in any form for the training of a hunting dog or the handling of a dog in a field trial. "Remuneration" means payment in money, goods or services. So if you have not taken anything from anyone to train or handle a dog in two years, you are an amateur.

John has it right. CR

Thanks. That's good news

So, now, what trial are you going to first?

Just to throw a tidbit of extra info...A person can teach train and accept money for handling in the show ring and still be considered an amatuer in the field.
Jessica Carlson checked this out as this is what she does. Pro in the show ring and amatuer in the field. I was brought up to AKC and they do seperate show and field as to status

Also if you live with a pro reside at the same address as a pro you are considered a pro whether you know anything about the field or not

Wagonmaster,
Oh - I don't know Need to look at what is nearby, and get the dogs to be comfortable around a horse, cause even if I am walking I know they will be around. Need a walking puppy stake.

Laurie, most stuff around here is over now.

yeah, true. We are prepping for the NAVHDA even though it filled up before I could get my paperwork in. Hoping for a space to open up. The hunt tests and trials will have to wait til fall. Guess that'll put us out of puppy stakes and into derby. We'll see how things look.

Advice on opening up a puppy to run bigger? She runs VERY HARD but not really big enough I don't think. Practice? She is a spaz at heart and gets crazy to nearly losing her head, but seems hesitant to get out of sight, and me being short that is not always to far I can run her off 4-wheeler, but I use that excersie and for the most part they see it as two different games. One is just running roads and one is bird birds. Guess I could make an exception for her. REALLY need her to get used to horses following somehow too.

Horses have never been a big problem for me sees like the dogs always no whats going on and get to hunting. Not a specialist by anymeans at getting a dog to run but I think the 4 wheeler is great to push that dog and make her open up. One trick is progressively planting birds Take a fence row or hedge row for instance. Work her birds on the same row progressivly planting the bird further and further up the row it's kinda cheating as she'll mark where the bird was every day but it will teach her to open up and get out running and searching for the birds. Just an idea

She is okay with horses in general, but at the hunt test she was bothered by the fact that the horses (with judges ) were following ME. She kept coming back to check on me and glaring at the horses. She'd run off and search and come right back and check ALOT until we got to the bird field. Then she didn't care about the horse anymore and not so much about me either :roll: So, I guess it's just the concept of a backfield. If she is used to finding birds quickly she probably won't care.

Expose the pup, and it will grow up fast. There may be something at Percy Priest yet this spring, go to the American Field website and check and see what is there. The AKC stuff is now in northern Illinois, Iowa this weekend and then back to Northern Illinois before it goes to Michigan.

PM Sent as well.

Pepper

What has been given is the AKC rule, the AFTCA is nearly the same, except you most request your return to amateur status, it is not automatic after two years. But since Buzzy Daughter and Lyle Johnson are now amateurs, it can be easily done.

Neil

Thanks everybody. I will probably give it a try in a walking stake in the fall.

FYI the AKC definition of a pro is training for one year and two years before you can judge field trials. You can judge hunting tests even while you are a pro. The only stake for retrievers that you cannot run if you are a pro is the amateur. They also sometimes have an owner handler qualifying event. Pros can run it, but, you must own or co-own the dog.


John

Hi: I am far from a professional Hunt Test or Field Trial trainer. However, I would like to do puppy head start when I open my new kennel. It would be getting the pups used to duck blinds, vests, decoys, gun shots, water, and baby retrieves. If I take money for starting puppies, would I fall into the professional trainer category and only be eligible to run my own dog in the Open??
Thanks!

Labluvs wrote:Hi: I am far from a professional Hunt Test or Field Trial trainer. However, I would like to do puppy head start when I open my new kennel. It would be getting the pups used to duck blinds, vests, decoys, gun shots, water, and baby retrieves. If I take money for starting puppies, would I fall into the professional trainer category and only be eligible to run my own dog in the Open??
Thanks!

Yes, if you take money for training regardless of the age you are now a Pro.

Used to be you made money you were a pro. To get off Pro status you had to quit for two years. In the interest of trialing I think once your a pro, your always a pro. I also think that once you step up to open statue and place, Amateur status should become off limits. I have watched guy's that are competitive at open and former pro's compete with true amateur handlers in Amateur stake and normally the real Amateur doesn't stand a chance against them. That is where the people coming into trialing normally start. show up to try it out and get thrown under the bus!

DonF wrote:Used to be you made money you were a pro. To get off Pro status you had to quit for two years. In the interest of trialing I think once your a pro, your always a pro. I also think that once you step up to open statue and place, Amateur status should become off limits. I have watched guy's that are competitive at open and former pro's compete with true amateur handlers in Amateur stake and normally the real Amateur doesn't stand a chance against them. That is where the people coming into trialing normally start. show up to try it out and get thrown under the bus!

IMO it's called upping your game, learning the ropes, and not dumbing down what it takes to win. I've pride in winning over pros and accomplished ammies, and I am always ready to cede to new up and comers. Want a piece of the placements? Then earn it!

DonF wrote:Used to be you made money you were a pro. To get off Pro status you had to quit for two years. In the interest of trialing I think once your a pro, your always a pro. I also think that once you step up to open statue and place, Amateur status should become off limits. I have watched guy's that are competitive at open and former pro's compete with true amateur handlers in Amateur stake and normally the real Amateur doesn't stand a chance against them. That is where the people coming into trialing normally start. show up to try it out and get thrown under the bus!

Not true in retrievers, as Mr. G said back in 2008. Used to be if you were a pro regaining amateur status, you place an ad in Retriever News (a/k/a Retriever Field Trial News) stating that you were becoming an amateur again, and the date you were to resume running dogs as an amateur had to be one year from the date you last accepted payment for training retrievers. Nowadays, you only need to notify AKC of your change of status and the elapsing of the year that haven't trained professionally.

Wow. Ten years since this thread started - some names on here are certainly missed. Neil Mace, for one -

Judging from another board, the OP of this thread seems to be involved with retrievers - can't say at what level, but there has been an explosion over the last five years in the numbers of "hunt test pros."

MG

Pro's are called pro's because they have advantage over amateur's, not all amateur's but most. Them someone pays them to do what they do. Even if they are not very good at it, they are still being paid and it is assumed that they have advantage. When a pro quits being a pro, the only thing that changes is he's no longer being paid. A good pro does not unlearn what he learned to get there in the first place! I believe, once a pro, always a pro, even if you weren't a very good one. And if you step up to open stakes and place, there should be no going back! I know amateur's that are as good as more good pro's. They kill the true amateur and you get the true amateur discouraged and lose a certain number of them. Field trial's has problems around here anymore drawing people. To bad those beat up amateur's didn't come back!

In competition there is only one winner per stake. So in a 32 dog stake, have 31 handlers been 'beat up' by one dog/handler team? Do those 31 pack it in never to return? Some might, but most know that every dog and every handler is beatable on any given day.

To weed out pros or good (experienced) amateurs thins down the competition. It might be good for avoiding bruised egos, but it also allows for perhaps mediocre handlers with mediocre dogs to gain championship points when they win their mediocre-populated stake. Might be good for a beginner's ego but it's bad for the sport overall.

What happens when someone takes a dog through those amateur stakes and earns an AFC on his dog? Are his choices to either hire a pro to go for an FC, or to give up amateur standing to do it on his own? What about his subsequent dogs - no AFC for them because there's no going back to amateur for that handler?

In my experience most pros and successful amateurs are helpful and considerate of newbie bracemates, sometimes to their consternation when the newbie they helped knocked them out of a win. By and large the sport is full of great sportsmen and sportswomen, who try to encourage and elevate new people. If some new person quits because he didn't win over a pro, maybe he needs to explore the formats where there isn't subjective judging, and that use meeting a standard for pass/fail/score instead.