what is going on here

[jager meister]

i took my GSP out who is 9 months old at this point. WE are working on whoa and I did not have my e collar. (DT system out being fixed again). That is besides the point of what I wanted to ask...After working with him for about 45 min. I let him off to run the fields where quail have been released. He did not go on one point. He had been pointing up untill now during the hunting season, I took him out quite a few times on pen raised phesant and he had a stron ability with both chucker and pheasants but he did not go on point once in this field with birds in it. I know there were birds in it becasue my training partner went in after me with his dog and she pointed 6 quail. Needless to say I am a bit freaked out. Could it be the fact that he did not have his collar on ad therefore felt he was not hunting or did he lose his ability and forget what he was in the woods for. I have tried to put all the information here I could to get an idea of what is going on. I dont feel as though he is blinking birds casue he had not during the hunting season he is certainly not gun shy but that should not even be a problem casue I did not have one with me...just a blank gun I have been using for whoa training...

Any information or insight will be great!!!

Thank you all

[slistoe]

Your puppy is 9 mos. old. Why would you work whoa for 45 min with a 9 month puppy?

Has your dog seen quail before? Does he know quail are for hunting? He is only 9 mos old. Did he smell quail scent for 45 min. while you were whoa training and believe that you have told him to ignore it? When was the last time he was out on birds? Your e-collar has nothing to do with it. I don't think it is "Needless to say I am a bit freaked out.", remember your puppy is only 9 mos. old.

[jager meister]

i say 45 min but in that training session there was also sit, heal, and a few diffent drills ALL FUN ALL INTERESTING!!! I had to set up benches and whatever else and that was included in the "45" min whic hactually more likly ended up being about 10 min on each skill...still maybe too long better to do like 5 but I did not go on and on for 45 min on one thing. SO, if I had trained him to ignore then I can get him interested by getting him on ones I plant and "teaching" him they are fun to hunt too?

Thank you

[slistoe]

You didn't answer, Has he seen quail before?

He is 9 mos old, he can learn about anything at this age. By the time he is 2 yrs. you will have a good idea whether he has learned it or not.

[bobman]

dogs miss bird for lots of reasons that we never will understand, even the top pointers in thre world miss them unless its a constant thing don't worry about it.

[ezzy333]

My first thought when I read your post is why are you trainin g whoa when th pup isn't even old enough to know what he is doing in the field. In your anxiety to train a puppy you have the cart before the horse. The pup has to learn what it is supposed to be doing in the field before it learns to do it according to your rules. Thats like teaching addition before you have learned to read numbers.

Rule No. ! is let the pup be a pup and give it a chance to find out what it is doing before you start traching it how you want it to do it. Stop and think, if we knew so much about hunting and finding birds we wouldn't evenneed a dog. And if you aren't going to let the pup growup and educate itself then it will never be much of an aid to you in the field as all it will know is how to stop, sit, and wait for you to tell it what to do next. The only thing worse than having an unruly pup in the field is having one that isn't.

Ezzy

[Maurice]

Ditto what Ezzy said in his post... Let the pup learn to hunt and handle birds before you start with all the obedience work.

Mo

[kninebirddog]

Wow ...

Your setting the pup up for complete burn out

It is not about how Much time you spend in a session

It is about the quality of time you spend on a young dog that is the most important

It isn't that you can't do some training BUT do not try to do college work on an elemtary student

Back up...if you can get a young dog to do something right for a little bit end on a good note

as for the e collar ....if your dogs isn't pointing with out it ...there is something missing in the training cause the e collar should only be an extension of the check cord cueing a dog when it isn't going with you coming to you or standing still


at 9 months your pup is going through a natural stage of testing parameters..and all the drill dictaroship training e collars etc will not change this ....Go back to a check cord ease up your dealing with a young dog

It is very common for a person with one dog to over do it...back up slow down make it fun...what are you in such a hurry for

Do a little bit then set the dog on a stake out for a while let the dog absorb what happened You will get further in shorter good session the one long drawn out attention losing session and then compiling that with uncontrol in the field excersises which also should be fun sessions

shorten your session
make sure your sessions and cues have a purpose

and if your going to do something besure you can back your command up because if you can't you are only teaching the dog that your command mean nothing

[jager meister]

thank you all very much I will take a step back. I am just doign what I was told I shoudl start doign by some guys at the club I belong to. I am a first time trainer First dog, and my biggest roblem is I read TOO much and freak out. My biggest concern is doign what is best for the dog. I want him to be the best he can be and the only problems with him are....ME.

Thank you all and I will try to SLOW DOWN

[monksmom]

I disagree on waiting to do whoa training. Nine months old is NOT too young to learn this skill if it is taught in a way that isn't too harsh and is followed by lots of praise. My dog started training at 12 weeks of age. I followed the Wolters method of teaching whoa and it was the best lesson my dog learned...he is steady to wing and shot, and still has tons of drive. It basically is having him run and then popping out with your hands like a traffic cop (palm out) and saying whoa. If he stops (mine always did) I then give him praise, his release word, and more praise. I only do it about 3 times and then throw a toy. Pups will learn more easily even though their attention span is short because they are like a clean slate/sponge. You just don't want to make the sessions too long and browbeat the dog. As he matured and got on birds, I only had to do a little fine tuning. He just got his JH and was steady to wing and shot an all the birds he encountered and also backed a Brittany one day.

He never saw a quail until a week before I hunt tested him...we put a bird out on a long tether and brought him into it crosswind and he pointed. Now I can say that my dog didn't point until he was about 10-11 months old. Some dogs mature more slowly than others. So don't worry about whether he pointed or not. But I think obedience in short, happy sessions can pay off huge dividends.Whoa and Come are the two most important things he can learn.

[CherrystoneWeims]

Ditto what Ezzy said in his post... Let the pup learn to hunt and handle birds before you start with all the obedience work.

Mo

I also agree with Maurice and Ezzy. Let your pup be a pup. Let him explore and find birds on his own. Ditch the e-collar until he is almost 2 yrs. old. I don't start formal training with my dogs until they are at least 2. You're going to end up burning him out and making him blink if you put the screws to him at too young an age.

One thing I am wondering. Are you planting birds and then virtually "leading" him to the birds so that you can work on whoa training??

[kninebirddog]

He is your dog and if your getting bored or tired of a drill imagine what the dog is going through

think about when you were in school which classes did you do better at...think about how the teacher handled the class was it learning but enjoying it at the same time

[smittysmith777]

I AGREE WITH MONK 9 MONTHS IS NOT TO YOUNG I START WHOA TRAINING AT 9 WEEKS ALSO AGREE WITH MONK ABOUT WOLTERS MY YOUNGEST DOG NOW IS 15 MONTHS HAVE KILLED 135 BIRDS OVER HIM WOLTERS BOOKS WILL NEVER BE OUTDATED.

[monksmom]

I should add that I know personally some great hunting dogs that had obedience taught the proper fun way from a very early age and never did bird work until a year old. There is more than one way to skin a cat, but I strongly believe that obedience at a young age (12 weeks is not too early to start if you keep the sessions short and fun) will make your life much easier and easier for your dog when doing bird/hunt related training. In the field, my dog learned to find birds and point them by having the birds teach him about 80% of the time. But to get him not to crowd the bird and thus not catch it (there isn't much access here to anything but pen raised birds), the whoa came in handy so that when the dog first got scent, he got a whoa...that way he realized that he should point when he first got scent, not when he was on top of the bird.

[daddyfid]

You and you family are in our thoughts and prayers!

Fidler Family

[ezzy333]

Each and everyone of us are free to teach and train anyway we want. In this case a young man is experiencing some problems that most of us have experienced at sometime in the past. My advice was given in all sincerity as to what probably is the problem and how to correct it. I can not think of a single pro trainer that would argue with what I posted, though there probably is someone who would, and the reason I posted is it is what I have seen over the years. We have had numerous people on this board that have had some of the same problems and there will be more and the cure is do not start field training whoa till the dog knows what he is doing in the field.

As far as the comment about a dog being trained for a natural ability test in my mind does away with everything the test is supposed to show. I do not ever do any training other than walk with the pups in the field before they do the JH test. I want to see the natural ability and not what we can train a dog to do. Training is for the SH and MH test in my book. In the last JH I completed, my pup huntd half of the county but he pointed, backed, and even retrieved though he wasn't supposed to and there had never been any training done before hand. That told me the pup had the tools to be a really nice field dog and he sure turned out that way. And he is pretty solid on Whoa even though he was getting near two years old when we worked on that.

I had two judges tell me they had never seen a pup find objectives and get to them faster than Rush did. I am sure the reason why is he was given the opportunity to learn on his own without my interference.

Ezzy

[snips]

What exactly have you used the ecollar for?

[monksmom]

Ezzy, so what good is a JH test if the dog runs off the field and doesn't come back when called? I saw this happen quite often. How can you train a dog in the field if he knows no commands? Prey drive is prey drive, and pointing comes with maturity and instinct/prey drive. I'd rather see obedience first and then field work/training. If the dog learns he can blow you off in the field because he hasn't been obedince trained at home or on the table, then you have an uphill battle.

[slistoe]

That is precisely why you own the breed you do monksman.

For myself, I am bringing up a hunting dog. I want to see a young dog hunt. I can make a dog obedient anytime I want to, I cannot MAKE a dog hunt.

Anyway, all that is aside to this fellows problem. He wants his dog to hunt birds and is distraught because it seems like it isn't when he hasn't properly equipped the dog to hunt. Knine, ezzy, maurice et al have the problem nailed.

[vols fan]

any chance he just missed them? young, never been in quail before? what were the conditions? hot, windy etc?

[CherrystoneWeims]

How can you train a dog in the field if he knows no commands? Prey drive is prey drive, and pointing comes with maturity and instinct/prey drive. I'd rather see obedience first and then field work/training. If the dog learns he can blow you off in the field because he hasn't been obedince trained at home or on the table, then you have an uphill battle.

A pup should NOT be trained for JH. It is a natural ability test IMHO. When I judge dogs in HT's I won't pass a do who won't range out and HUNT. I don't want to see a dog who only ranges 50' from the handler especially in JH. I want to see independence. If you rein them in too much for JH then you will have serious consequences when you do break them. The breaking process shortens up their range as it is.

I see too many owners who ruin their pups by putting too much obedience work into them and taking the independence out of them. You can't put independence into a dog but you sure can take it out of them.

I also see too many owners who want to "help" their dogs too much by talking and training them too much.

I do NO obedience training with my puppies. Well I take that back. I teach them to come using a clicker and hot dogs. That's it period. My current pups finished their JH titles at less than 7 mos. of age. One was 6 mos. 2 weeks and at 6 mos. 3 weeks she got her first point toward her Field Championship. AND they are ........... Weimaraners.

BTW Pointing does not necessarily come with maturity. My pups were all pointing by 12 weeks. Just by taking them out and letting them be puppies. Birds were released out of the johnny house and pups were allowed to just go out and find them. No talking, nothing said to the pups. Pups learn that if they point the bird will stay. If they move the bird will fly off.

BTW My Master Hunter bitch was one who would blow me off on the field when she was running in JH. After she completed JH and when she turned 2 she was trained for MH. She sailed through her SH and MH titles with no problem.

[monksmom]

That is precisely why you own the breed you do monksman.

For myself, I am bringing up a hunting dog. I want to see a young dog hunt. I can make a dog obedient anytime I want to, I cannot MAKE a dog hunt.

Anyway, all that is aside to this fellows problem. He wants his dog to hunt birds and is distraught because it seems like it isn't when he hasn't properly equipped the dog to hunt. Knine, ezzy, maurice et al have the problem nailed.

How can you be so sure that you have diagnosed the problem without even seeing the dog? Excuse me...one day and he doesn't happen to hunt or maybe just didn't find the birds? It may have nothing to do with his training the dog on whoa. You really shouldn't be so breed bigoted either...my dog ranges over a 100 yards, easy, got all 9s in his last hunt test and has a NAVHDA Prize 2. He is a hunting dog. And he has had obedience training and continues to do so. But he hunts where I want him to hunt. He doesn't hunt in some some other field because he hasn't learned respect for his handler or because he hasn't had any obedience training. There is a balance that needs to be struck...make it fun and happy. It is a lot easier to teach a dog obedience when they are young. And it doesn't necessarily take the hunt out of the dog. Lots goes into whether a dog hunts: genetics, good experiences, nothing bad with birds during fear periods or any other time for that matter, and birds, birds, birds etc etc. But in my opinion, not doing obedience isn't necessarily one of them if it is being done in a fair, consistent and happy manner. Most of my "obedience training" is done without birds on a table or in a nonbird field and when he gets to hunt birds, he hunts, points, backs witout a problem. And no diminishment in drive either.

[ezzy333]

Monksmom,

None of can be sure but through experience with many dogs we can state our opinion. But you are right, one would have to see the dog to know exactly what is happening.

You have stated your opinion also, and that is ok. I have no idea at this time what experience you are basing your opinion on but again you hve the right to have one and express it on this board.

Another opinion that I have is there has probably never been a dog that hasn't lost range and independance when it has been trained. Many lose a lot but regain most of it later but many never recover. That is why you see puppies and derbies who do a great job in their trials but never make it as a broke dog. I am sure your dog has developed along the lines you like and that is the way it should be. Mine have done some of the same but still need to learn more. But one thing they know is they have a free rein to hunt where ever they decide the birds might be unless I call them off and ask them to go a different direction. Just a couple of moths ago I had both dogs on point probably 3 to 4 hundred yards apart. I had to walk 150 yards out to the right to get the bird Time had pinned and then maybe 300 yards or more to the front where Rush was standing. Got that bird also but took 10 or 15 mins to get to him.

Basically we are just talking a different idea of how a dog should work and I admit most people want their dog to hunt where they want them too but that has always been one of my pet peives. People who want a dog because they can't find the birds and then as soon as they get one they want to tell it where to hunt. If we really knew where why do we need the dog?

I love to watch the dogs work and thats what makes the sport worthwhile.

Ezzy

[wems2371]

Jaegermeister--Don't freak out over one session. Try it again and see what you get. One bad day doesn't mean you've done anything wrong. If it happens again, then you need to back up and rethink what you're doing. Can you get some members of your club to come out and watch you and give you pointers while you work?

Don't panick about reading this forum and all it's various opinions. I did this about 4 weeks ago when my dog did some flagging. Read a 3+ page thread on flagging that was going on at that time, and it totally freaked me out. I started doubting everything I had done and was pretty upset. Turns out everything was A-Okay. There's a lot of experience here, but you'll read from one end of the spectrum to the other, and it can really flip you out if you're new. Best bet is to find someone you deem knowledgeable, and have them help you out on site. You may not have a problem at all.

And I know what you mean about doing training--masked as fun for your dog. I can do 20 minutes of retreiving training with my 9.5 month old pup............and she thinks it's the funnest (?) thing in the world. She doesn't know she's being trained. She loves her whoa table, and will jump on it every time the garage door is open. I think it's how you approach things.

In my opinion, animals are different at handling training at different ages as are people about providing the best training for their dog at that age. In other words, one person could train Blackie to the whoa table at 6 months with great success.....................while someone else could totally foul it up with Blackie. To me, it's all about reading the dog.

On a side note with my experience: I started the whoa table at about 5 months, but haven't started using it in the field until about 9 months--and then sparingly. As many have stated, birds are the best teacher of whoa--in my opinion as well. Maybe many would disagree, but to me whoa is not just an exercise I use in the field. I used whoa when teaching my dog how to stand for a bath, toenail trimming, on the vets exam table, and for her to learn to wait to get out of the truck until I'm ready. It has been an invaluable tool on many levels. It is also my opinion that basic obedience, if done right will not ruin a dog. Heeling and recalls are necessary in my mind--just for safety purposes alone. My 10 month old dogs desire and performance in the field is not any less because I make her heal and sit at my local Petsmart. Take my 2 cents for what it's worth..........and take a deep relaxing breath as well. Best wishes. Denise

[Hilgendorf]

Since everyones chippin in ill throw my OPINIONATED 2 cents worth in...9 months plenty old enough to teach whoa and basic commands no problem. 45minutes maybe a lil to long on straight commands even if they are spread out between a set of different commands. My pup started like Munks, it was about 14 weeks old and i took it out in my front yard just "play" training with "here", and "whoa", i just made sure to make it fun. My dog seemd to mature and learn things very VERY fast at a young age so it all needs to be geared towards your situation, I let her play with some wing on pole young, i showed her live bird young, all around trained young, but her mind was more mature than her bodies physical appearance. and opening day pheasant season 2007 she hunted, pointed and retrieved 3 roosters. And prolly ended up around 75 roosters bagged by the end of the year with me and my dog, every minute nothing but non stop fun and excitement. I let the pup be a pup for sure, but also noted that her desire and excitement comes 90% from purely just running grass and tracking birds, so thats what i let her do. I included this pic that is from i think November 1st 2007 where she was exactly 8 months old there, and like a rock solid machine successfully pointed most of those birds there, along with more hens than you can shake a stick at.
Just adapt to your situation and have fun, if somethins iffy, back up, slow down, have fun.

[jager meister]

I thank you all VERY much. I am tring not to freak and hope it was just one poor session. I will sit and re eval my training and take as many of the suggestions as I can and feel will be appriciated by jager. I feel (with the suggestion of trusted people around me) that Jager is ready for everything I am doing, but maybe I need to try to do a beter job at training. I thank you all a TON and this has been a great discussion and VERY helpful to me.

[jager meister]

as i re read these posts I realize there is a something i missed. I am teaching whoa as STOP WHERE YOU ARE...and not equating it with BIRDS just a command like sit which is what I though I read to do on this post. I was jsut concerned that my dog did not show what he had shown many times before his natural ability to find birds. At which point I care nothing about style and do not even say whoa. I was jsut worried I maybe made him forget to look for birds which was all taken care of last night when he found two quail...all is good and back normal...what ever normal is for a nine month old male german shorthair...which I can assume is NOT NORMAL AT ALL.

"What did we ever worry about before the dog... " (a quote from my lovely better half)

[jager meister]

oh to answer Brendas question the only reason I use my ecollar is for the HERE command...NOTHING ELSE right now

[ncpointers]

As to the debate of age, I will leave that to the more experienced. But I would not worry about the other dog finding birds after your dog came out of the field. There are a lot of reasons for that. I wish my dogs would clean a field every time they went in. My only advice is be patient and keep sessions short and fun.

[remmy]

I agree with ezzy as far as letting pup be a pup. However, the dog should have been out chasing birds for a long time up til now and should be learning obedience only now...not at 2yrs old. Maybe to break a dog at 2yrs but not to start formal training...unless I'm misunderstanding you.

45 min is waaaay too long for obedience training. Also, you shouldn't be teaching multiple commands in one session. Your dog is probably bored and confused. Do one command 10-15 min twice day until they learn it....not 3 or 4 different commands 10 min each in one day. Once your dog has learned the first command then start a new one.

If your dogs has been on birds...chased, shot over, whatever then stop and concentrate only on obedience for now. You shouldn't work birds and obedience at the same time. Your dog should be obedient when you put him back on birds or in the field. Otherwise, it's a disaster waiting to happen.

[BoJack]

NUMBER ONE-Are you working the dog into the Wind?? I've seen dogs,mine included,blow right by birds if the wind wasn't right.After I plant birds or release them I use a Windacator,like deer hunters use.It's a plastic bottle with talcum powder or flour in it that you squeeze into the air to see what direction the wind is blowing.That way you know what direction to work your dog into the birds.NUMBER TWO- E-collar on or off shouldn't have anything to do with him pointing birds,that's Genetic in Pointing dogs.