how to get dog's head up when on scent?

[WiskeyJaR]

Had Dutchess out this past weekend with a couple of setters. The setters where catching scent and pointing about twice the distance of my dog. The setters ran with head high catching the scent on the air, Dutchess ran with nose to ground. Was wondering what is the training technique to get the dogs head up?

Thanks folks,
WiskeyJaR

[Tejas]

I'm not sure that a high head is something that one can train.....likely more a case of genetics. Generally a high head is a sign of the dog scenting the bird whereas a dog with it's head to the ground is more likely trailing where a bird passed.

[natetnc]

Was wondering what is the training technique to get the dogs head up?

i would work hidden traps and scent cones with a cc, sounds like she is using the wrong method of finding the birds.

are you planting birds? nose to the ground is also a good sign of a dog following you to the bird.

a dogs head (on point) will be where the scent is and that is not always high.

[ezzy333]

I'm not sure that a high head is something that one can train.....likely more a case of genetics. Generally a high head is a sign of the dog scenting the bird whereas a dog with it's head to the ground is more likely trailing where a bird passed.

I agree it would be difficult to train. Its about the same principle as training a dog to carry its tail up. Those tend to be natural abilities that are bred for and not trained. Most of the original European dogs hunted head down since they were bred to be trackers and over time we have bred for birds and the heads gradually have come up looking for body scent and not foot scent.

Ezzy

[WiskeyJaR]

are you planting birds? nose to the ground is also a good sign of a dog following you to the bird.

yes so far in the bird training it has only been with planted pigeons, never thought about it before, but yes she does seem to follow where I have walked to plant bird. So whats the "fix"? Have some one else plant the birds? Unfornately she has not been around wild birds much, just all planted birds. Yes I use a CC all the time.

Will just getting her exposed to more wild birds tend to get her head up? And for the folks who also hunt fur, does head high affect the fur scent?

Thanks again,
WiskeyJaR

[JimB]

What breed is the dog you're speaking of ? Some breeds will hunt with a low head, ie., tracking breeds. If you are talking about a pointing breed, I think the only cure would lots and lots of wild bird contacts. A dog that hunts with a low head will bump more birds.
It is very possible that the dog is tracking you to the planted birds, as mentioned. Some things that can help with that include wearing rubber gloves to handle birds, and wear rubber or scent lock type boots when planting birds. Also if you are going to work the dog north into the birds, plant them them from the south. That way you won't cross you planting route.

[WiskeyJaR]

I have never used gloves or "scent lock" boots, just caught bird with me hands, put in launcher and then placed in field, have tried to bring dog in from a different direction then the way I planted. Will try the gloves and wear me hunting boots, see if that helps any.

What breed is the dog you're speaking of ? Some breeds will hunt with a low head, ie., tracking breeds.

BTW...she in a Large Munsterlander. The breed is used for both fur and feather, so as its been mentioned, may be a bred in thing to run with nose lower. Had her out yesterday in the fields, she found and pointed, for a short bit, then pounced and ate two baby birds in a ground nest. Was all ground scent, never had nose higher then her chest. I see lots of field work in me furture.

WiskeyJaR

[jczv]

For what it's worth here's what I've done with a dog who gets into tracking mode during training

Ways to get around a dog tracking your path:
- Use carded pigeons (fly them in) - you need a large area without trees or tall bushes
- Use quail that are flown in (instead of planted)

Or if using launchers
- Run multiple dogs in the area before the dog that tracks (with launchers I'll run my younger dog who doesn't track first) then move the launchers and run my older dog who does. There's enough different scent around that he can't track right to the launchers.
- Follow a path when setting the launchers that the dog is least likely to pick up. On one training grounds thats on the corner of two roads I'll plant by driving to one side - walking in off of that road then drive to the other road and run the dog from there. On others I'll walk a path that the dog won't make contact with before he smells the bird (loop well around where the dog will be released). Always pay attention to wind direction and try to follow paths (in the trees - through bushes that the dog would normally not travel). This is easiest if you train in an oval type training area (that way you don't have to walk as far to plant but the dog will find birds in different areas.

Last to get his head higher try multiple birds and putting birds on small knolls etc. Try and get as much scent in the air as you can so the dog will smell the birds from far off when he has a high head.

[PntrRookie]

I have to agree with JimB...it is the breed. I have hunted with quite a few Munsters (mostly Small) and they can not be beat for their nose, tracking and usually retrieving. But for the style of their point, I have never seen one style up head high like a setter. I have seen them with their head up, but rarely is there any crank or intensity to raise it higher. I would bet your dog's nose is just as good if not better than others, but they "look" of the find will be different.

[romeo212000]

I was having the same problem with my GSP when I sent her off to the trainer. He noticed it and told me and then I realized what was happening is she was tracking my scent to the bird rather than winding the birds scent. I took her back to the check cord and worked on heel and a number of other things and while she was walking he would not let her put her head down. For example when she was at heel if she dropped her nose he would use the heeling stick and tap her under the chin. She quickly learned to carry her head high when walking and he said it transferred over well when he began bird work and said she is doing much better now about carrying her head high.

[BluffCountryOutdoors]

Hey Whiskey,


You know when I had Odin ( My L.M. ) out in the field when he was young, I found tall grass where he couldn't really see over a lot of the times, and he would kind of look up and around and stick his nose up to smell the air. Maybe it was to smell where I was and to look also where I was. I usually always go out to game farms with a buddy. I have used gloves to handle the pigeons just because their dirty and it does a good job at masking your scent. I still stick him in the taller grass when we go out running and training. I think it may help to keep his head up too!?
You can definatly tell the difference between wild birds and game farm birds. I ran into a lot of chuckars that wouldnt get up at all and that I think keeps a dogs head down when there hunting/tracking that scent when they stay down.

I wouldn't worry man, L.M.'s are an amazing dog and their noses are just as amazing. See if the Tall grass works?

later bro,

Mikey & Odin

[NE Vizsla]

When planting birds i like to just throw them off the 4 wheeler, seems to work.

[Don]

Well guys, the dog wasn't tracking him. He was over here and I put the birds out off of a 4 wheeler. The dog didn't track me, in fact the dog went to heavy cover first and worked it's way back around to where thee birds were. It's definately searching more ground scent. When it does find birds, its not till the dog is right on top of them. I told JaR he should ask here because I have no idea how to get the dogs head up and looking for air scent.

The setters he was talking about were my Squirt and Bodie. Birds they were hitting at 20yds to 30yds, she was coming on at 1 to 2 yds; similar sets and wind. She covers the ground like a vacume cleaner; large B/W Springer!

[slistoe]

Generations of breeding.

Plant the birds two or three feet up in a bush - get the scent cone washing over the dog. Repeat a thousand times with no birds on the ground. Perhaps then you can retrain the innate tendency.

Scold her whenever her nose drops to the ground and have a bird out with strong scent conditions so that when she moves with the head up will strike scent. Repeat a thousand times to ingrain the head up bird finding relationship.

[WiskeyJaR]

Have disscussed this over on the "Munsterlander forums" and they say the breed in general tends to run with the nose varying between air and ground. They seem to think with age, she should get more "air nose". Like other have said... the more wild birds she works the better. She usally hunts timber with small open fields....so more wide open country should help, right?

[gar-dog]

Good thread. This is a real concern of mine with my Brittany. We live in the suburbs full of people, dogs, and deer. That nose is to the ground on walks. I am praying that proper bird training and hunting experience will get the head up, otherwise we will spend the next 12 years bumping birds.

[romeo212000]

Dont let the dog put its nose to the ground on walks. Walk the dog at heel and use a heeling stick to keep the head up. Worked on my dog.

[mountaindogs]

Okay I am not making light of this here, but can you make a point to work her on windy days? I notice that my dogs do a lit more air scenting when the wind is blowing all around. Maybe if she just had more practice at it she would use it more.

[BluffCountryOutdoors]

How'd it end up going Whiskey? Any luck with all of this ?

You said there was a Munsterlander Forum on here.. you should point me in the right direction?!

Cheers buddy.

Mikey & Odin

[bobman]

my experience has been that when I'm hunting my shorthairs together with EPs and setter the latter usaually point further way and find birds the shorthairs miss.

I know this is going to get me flamed but I've come to believe that setters and especially EPs just have better noses.

My shorthairs are very good lines and great dogs that will match most if not all lines in the country (Rawhide Clown) not some backyard bred pups .

I still love shorthairs but have really come to admire the capabilities of the noses of EPs, all breds have strengths and weaknesses relative to others

[N.D.Field]

One way to put a bird in a field with a "fresh trail" is this.
You need a partner and a fresh dead bird.(not including your live one)
Tie the fresh dead bird with a rope(10 ft is usually good) so that the two of you can drag it between yourselves. Keep as far away from your drag as you can, but keep the dead bird on the ground. Plant live bird at end of trail, I usually do this fist so that my smell gets cooler at the flush point than the drags fresher scent. I found this method somewhere, but it has helped me immensely with my GSP. Bring him in cross wind towards beginning of trail, and let him find the trail, Try not to check him into it, just work other areas and come back till he finds it. Another thing may be, plant some birds where he will not be able to see it, that way he won't be "looking" for them. But in the end, at least for GSP's the "high" nose was bred into them, so that may be nature.

[WiskeyJaR]

Had Dutchess out this past weekend training with the local NAVHDA chapter. Was in a field of tall grass. Dutchess started with head down, but as day went on she picked up her head, more to see over grass Im thinking. She found all 3 quail that where planted....she caught the 3rd bird and chopped it The "trainer" who was showing me "how to work the check cord" yanked on the cord so hard the snap on end broke, Dutchess was after the quail. Im actually glad the snap broke, the way he yanked on the cord.... He was doing it with the GSP pups too, fliping them on their backs by yanking on cord. Maybe this is the common practice? Just seems a little harsh ...maybe a lot harsh to me. All dogs where pups 8m-1yr.

Anyways, getting back to Dutchess. She was picking her head up when she was running threw the tall grass. She would continue to run with her head lower then the GSP pups seem to, but it was "high" for her I think its a matter of time and she'll pull it up for good. I do want her tracking fur too, will work that later after I got the bird part fixed, so she wont ever have her head as high as some others.

WhiskeyJaR

[ezzy333]

I think when you look at the European dogs, hunting with the head down is a normally position since thy are being bred as tracking dogs as well as bird dogs. It has been since they have been in this country that people have been breeding for the higher head and tail. And that is what it takes. I don't think you will change your dog much with training since the genes are already in place.

There tends to be a different mind set between countries also. European dogs are bred strictly for effiecency while in this country we rank style as the number one quality. Every breed I am familiar with has been bred for speed and style to fit the American ideals.

Ezzy

[BluffCountryOutdoors]

Hey whiskey,

Man that is messed up about that trainer guy.. was he pulling that hard on the check cord with YOUR dog on the other end? I'm sorry but I don't care if its the best trainer in the world.. If you're pulling so hard that you knock your dog on his "bleep" like that...literally launching the dog backwards in the air.. I'd say thats a little excessive.. In my mind if you need to take such aggressive measures.. then you don't have enough time to repeadedly train a dog..

IF peoples goals are to make a dog so disciplined and so militaristic that they have to abuse the dog physically to get the results they want.... Sorry but screw you. Your not even thinking about the dog at all.. just yourself, you're selfish.

that's just my opinion - but I care about animals .. not ribbons.

Take care whiskey.. fill me in more on this topic.

congrats on how well your dog is coming along my friend.

Mikey & Odin

[zanna5910]

I'm sorry if someone already said this but:

One thing you might try is to plant the bird on a slight elevation and bring him/her in under the elevation on the field so the scent comes in to her nose from a higher position. By elevation I mean like a small bump on the field thats 20 or so inches high.

[ezzy333]

I sure wouldn't consider letting a dog hit the end of the CC and flipping her on her back as excessive or even harsh. If done properly the dog hit the end and you pull back at the time she hits it to be sure she gets the full effect of whay she did. Remember if you have the CC in your hand she is hitting it much softer than she would if it was tied to a stake with no give at all. The trick is to give with the dog to lessen the shock but then make sure you yank it hard enough so the pup gets the message and she doesn't even know you did it, and she really did it to herself anyway. If you aren't going to do that there is no real reason to use the CC. That basically is the purpose of a CC, to check the dogs movement. And its a lot more gentle with you holding it than it would be tied to something with no give. Harsh would be letting her hit the end with it solid.

Ezzy

[WiskeyJaR]

Ezzy333,
I hear you about the dog hitting the end of cord and flipping itself. This was more of the man setting his feet and really yanking back hard on a already tight cord. Like he was setting the hook on a world class sturgeon... :roll: He broke the metal clasp I had on end of cord, of course the dog was also running full speed after flying quail at the moment. I will and have yanked on cord in different situations to get dogs attention, and no I am not against making my point known to the dog. But this did seem a little over the top...(shrugs)...maybe not. And the dog never shown any signs of continueing discomfort or anything afterwards. Just all looked pretty harsh to me...

Other then that, the man had some good advice on working with birds upclose with dog, to work on the "chopping" part.

Good point about the "European" Breeds running with head lower due to fur hunting also, she sure hunts cats great. Dutchess seems to find the birds fine, maybe a little closer then most. I think if I knew a little more of what I was doing...Dutchess would have a better time at it.

hmmmmm I know a fellow about 4hr drive away that is gonna to open up his own "bird dog" school some day....maybe Dutchess could be wanna his frist students.

[BluffCountryOutdoors]

hey guys,

Whisky I guess I never really thought about it... when I work Odin in the field while using the check cord.. he sure likes to pull! I guess I just hold tight and create a NO Slip grip.. and Im thinking If ever say anything?

Im at the point where Im working him around the " CONE " of scent from where the trap is and watching to see when he picks up the scent. I wonder what you should say when you have to give a little yank on the cord to keep him from always "hauling "bleep""?

if anyone has any ideas.. let em fly.

Thanks again guys.

pics of Dutchess look great man!

[WiskeyJaR]

BluffCountryOutdoors,
I use the word "steady" when Dutchess is on point. I use the word Steady instead of whoa....just personal peference is all. I do tug on the CC if she is moving and such. I try not to be verbal unless I have too. I will give the CC a tug if Dutchess is pulling. One of the thing Dutchess has started do is....say the bird is planted in a single bush, rest of field is close cut grass. If Dutchess comes in from 'behind" the bird she will "crawl" and creep around bush till she is directly down wind before she locks up. some times this puts her just inches from bird. I have been told wild birds would help this as they would fly away when she frist started to move around bush.

As far as her "chopping"...when I have bird in me hand and am working with her, she does not try to grab the bird. If I set bird down on ground, Dutchess is good till I let go of cord, I can give all th slack I want as long as I have ahold of the cord, she is good. THE moment I drop the cord, she thinks thats the clue for dinner...Pfft.

We'll get this fixed, hopefully sooner then later. Anyone from the Willamette valley have wild birds we can work with?


P.S. I know this has been asked before, but what is the average price if I was to send her to "camp"?

Thanks all,
WiskeyJaR

[BluffCountryOutdoors]

Whiskey,

So when you are working the field.. CC and all with the dog, you dont really say much.. I guess when I pull on the CC Im sure I say something.. It's not like he's jumping around and going NUTS.. he's just sniffing and hauling.. I'll yank back a bit.

I say find the bird ONCE as soon as we enter a field and ONLY if we're using birds... So I don't say Find the bird and then not Produce a bird ya know.

I've never really had a problem with Odin chomping on a bird.. he does sometimes drop it before I want him to.. like not in my hand.. but right at my feet.

I just got my hands on some homers... so Ill be able to get the coop up and not have to worry about watching 15 bucks fly away.. ha.

later,

Mikey & Odin

[WiskeyJaR]

Mikey,
When I frist enter a field with Dutchess, as I release her from my side I ask her to "Show me where they are" and then I send her out. If I need to tug on CC I'll say something then, other wise Im letting her work the field. When I am working in the yard, I'll tend to talk to her more.
As far as getting your loft going, one thiing I learned...make your nest boxes LARGE. I made a 'new. bigger" loft, complete with 10 nice little nest boxes all lined up along one wall. Boxes where 6x6 and about 10" deep. I have two breeding pair, they both have made nests on the FLOOR I built two new boxes about 12x12 and 12" deep. Had one bird leave nest on floor and move into bigger box, other pair already had an egg so stayed on floor. Also, just personal perfernce, but my frist loft was a small hutch I got plan from "Lion's coutry". Was a good loft, worked great for the birds, was just too small for me large arse to reach in and grap a bird for training. Is reason I built the bigger 4x8' loft. I can actually walk inside now to catch birds. Good luck on your loft.

As far as the chopping...at least she has stopped trying to grab bird if I have it in me hand, used to try to grab and take. Now if I am holding bird, she will do a little "dance" around me feet, and does the "Munster Yoddel" At least she is not jumping up and trying to grab the bird any more. Still, if bird is on ground, she will point and hold point when pigeon is in launcher, but if I "dizzy" the pigeon and plant it, she will point untill bird twiches, then luges at bird, if she catches it, she will bring it to me when I call her, but she is chopping To me it looks like she is tryinig to get a better hold on the bird, not like she is actually trying to eat it. Just her 'adjusting" is too hard and she is killing the birds.

WiskeyJaR

[BluffCountryOutdoors]

Hey Whiskey,


I believe the coop were putting up is going to be like 4' X 4'. Ill definatly keep in mind the nest boxes... I didn't know if I should have put them lower or higher so Ill check it out and see what level they like better.

Im trying to think.. When Odin was 4 months he retrieved a wild pheasant while we were hunting.. and kind of chewed on it but I think that was because he was so small and the rooster was pretty big.

I did so much retrieving training with odin it wasn't even funny.. when we use his toys outside like the knot rope or whatever.. I throw it and then say here.. then when he is coming back I use a hang motion and say here one more time.. It took me a long time to get him to wait to drop it till he got to me or bite on it too much. SO, I would quickly grab it and say drop, then ya know good boy n stuff.
as it contiued to get better I would wade into the water with him so that when he swam back to me the bumper would be at my hand level so he would hopefully get the idea that I wanted him to bring the bumper to my HAND, not the ground and IT would let him chew too much since he was swimming ya know?

Dude, Dutchess looks awesome! Is she just wading in the water all relaxed and chilling like!! great photo.

Mikey & Odin

thanks for the coop info...

[romeo212000]

What did you do and how did it work our Whiskey. My dog seems to want to put her nose to the ground. She was real bad about it before. The trainer got her pretty good on getting her head up when running but I get the feeling she will revert back to that if I do not correct her. I was wondering how this worked out for you.

[WiskeyJaR]

Romeo it was more a matter of time then anything I did. She still runs with head lower then most, but at least it is no longer on the ground. I ran her in fields with taller grass, that seemed to help some, as she had to keep lifting head to see. She also seems to track in closer then most before she goes on point.

[romeo212000]

I get the feeling it is more of an experience thing than anything. The more birds she bumps by carrying her head low, the more she will start to figure out she needs to carry her head high to catch the birds scent in time. I hope it is more time than genetics.