Force Retrieve

[upland-o]

I have a two year old Espagneul Breton that is new to my home, and I find myself in a quandry about force training her. She does retrieve to hand most of the time but I try to keep in mind when she doesnt that she is new and we are still getting used to each other. I never "force" training on her, when she gets tired of the training for the day we simply just quit and move on to more socialization. My concern is this, as a guide I need her to retrieve flawlessly and will definately be teaching hand and arm signals to which she already shows some good responses. At her age and considering her training is nearly complete, what do you think of force fetching her?

[dugger13]

If you are a guide, i don't think a dog the retrieves "most of the time" is what you are looking for. I think you need to force retrieve train her. Imagine if i was a client and that "most if the time" dog decided that today wasn't one of these days for retrieving.

2 years old is fine for starting the force fetch training.

[wems2371]

How long has she been worked with on retrieving? Did the prior owner work on this with her during her first 2 years? If she's been worked with all along, maybe she's peaked and that's as good as it will get for her. If this is new to her, her desire may increase with a little more time and as she gets comfortable with you. Are you using dummies or birds? Just curious. Denise

[ezzy333]

If you are a guide, i don't think a dog the retrieves "most of the time" is what you are looking for. I think you need to force retrieve train her. Imagine if i was a client and that "most if the time" dog decided that today wasn't one of these days for retrieving. 2 years old is fine for starting the force fetch training.

I'm really interested in the answer to this question. A person who hires a quide because he doesn't have a dog of his own, is that concerned about a dog retrieving perfectly seem rather far out to me. If someone is that fussy I think he would have his own dog and have it trained to be perfect. This just isn't an issue I ever had anyone ask about in my experience. My clients always wanted the dog to find the birds, give a chance to shoot, and to recover the birds that were shot. When that happened they went home as happy campers.

A young two year old dog, newly acquired, and she doesn't retrieve perfectly everytime. Wonder if she knows what a tough master she has. I'm not against FF for dogs that need it but I would think she needs a chance to learn what you want. But you have to remember no dog performs perfectly no matter what its training.

Ezzy

[Lab Man]

I am with Ezzy on this one. You have other issues to worry about at this point. I would first make sure you and your new dog have had the proper time to bond and socialize. I would make sure the dogs obedience is where you want it. Make sure the dogs bird work is where you want it. When all these peices of the puzzle are in place I would then worry about force fetch. Good luck

[upland-o]

thanks guys, i couldnt agree more about the client aspect of it. I was a little insulted by dugger13's comments. I am not a run of the mill guy-with-a-dog-guide. This is my full time job and I have been very successful with it. My question was whether or not a two year old dog is too old to force train as I dont have any experience training a dog this old. The dog is excellent with obediance and we have moved on to our tune up training, she has had training and hunts well, my idea to FF is derived from the fact I want a more conditioned response to downed birds than I get right now, I wont be starting until im confident that she just doesnt have the new house jitters. Thanks for everbodys help though, I greatly appreciate it

[snips]

No, 2 yrs is definetly not too old...

[Ruffshooter]

How long have you had here in weeks or months? Is she going and bringing the birds back each time, just not to hand?

IMHO, I probally would go through this season with no FF. Then I would FF her in the spring. The reason I would is consistency and effeciency. Once ff she will be even more enthusiastic to retrieve and will be a true joy for your clients to watch make difficult and long retrieves consistently.

Not sure why you were insulted by duggers comments, seem like his Opinion is based on his opinion, which you asked for and was a respectful perspective.

I own 3 FB one GSP and One AB currently, Even though all retrieved pretty nicely I ff them all just because I like playing games as well as hunting. And I know they will not give up until called in, even when out of sight.

Good luck

[kninebirddog]

FF is fine

But Onething you said in your post

I try to keep in mind when she doesnt that she is new and we are still getting used to each other. I never "force" training on her, when she gets tired of the training for the day we simply just quit and move on to more socialization.

You should be quitting her before she quits you....that is setting you up for her controlling things

leave her wanting more up beat

[dugger13]

The point i was trying to make is that your dog should be force retrieve trained. Being that you are in the guide job business. You will probably have a better dog because of the force training in the long run. A dog force retrieved trained will probably better suit you. Sorry if i insulted you.


If someone is that fussy I think he would have his own dog and have it trained to be perfect. This just isn't an issue I ever had anyone ask about in my experience. My clients always wanted the dog to find the birds, give a chance to shoot, and to recover the birds that were shot. When that happened they went home as happy campers.



I think that is probably 90 percent of anybodys clients, but what about other 10 percent. It would be better to make them happy and impressed as well. Remember not everyone is a dog lover like the members of this board. Some people might not care about the dog, and wonder what the heck is wrong when it decides to run and hide the downed bird, or sit and not move when sent on a retrieve. I am betting that would hurt your guiding business.

[upland-o]

no harm no foul

[upland-o]

I heard today about a method using the e-collar for FF. They simply apply constant stim to the dog while commanding fetch and making the dog take the dummy, I t seems to me that it could cause confusion in the training, I use constant stim for my "here" command and it worked extremly well, but I dont want the dog mixing up the reinforcement. Has anybody used this method or become familiar with it?

[wems2371]

I don't know about constant stimulation, but the dvd I had for Evan Graham's SmartFetch used an e-collar in conjunction with the ear pinch. I have no personal experience with that or any other FF method. Denise

[vern3]

The E collar is used by alot of people at the end of FF or force retrieve what ever name you call it.
The e collar is overlayed after he is understanding to grab the bumper to turn off the pressure of the
ear pinch. Walking fetch using a heeling stick is used first then overlayed with the e collar.

[gar-dog]

I have been on many many guided hunts. To me, finding birds is most important, finding downed birds is next in importance, and retrieving to the guide's hand is much less important. Generally if I am shooting I am happy, and don't like to spend a lot of time searching for hit birds. Birds in the vest is what is important - I am not judging the dog's finesse in retrieving. Also, I have hunted behind dogs that were not steady to shot and that is bothersome. With low flying quail I have held off on many a shot because the dog is out there. It doesn't matter to me if the dog retrieves on command or not - but steady to shot is important.

Another recommendation to guides - off topic. A lot of times I have hosted people who are new hunters. Now, a guide has garnered thousands of birds - no big deal - so the dog retrieves the bird and the guide pops it in his vest. Well, this bird is likely a BIG DEAL to the guy who shot it. I think guides should "show" the bird to the client, let him carry it if he likes, at least hold it, touch it, admire it. People like to see what they shot - and this may be the only time they get out for the season. Just an opinion....

[Rick Hall]

gar-dog, I've been taking JQ Public both upland and waterfowl hunting for twenty some years and agree with you on all counts.