To Force or Not to Force - That is the question

[djonathang]

Hello All,

I have a 10 month old female lab. A very sweet dog that is quickly learning the retrieve game. Responding to the whistle, and performing some pretty impressive blind retrieves. Still need to work on our over commands.

I have a question about force fetching. I had a lab that I put down a year ago. I did the forcing myself. All went well. He'd pickup anything that I asked him to, and never refused to pursue a bird.

I now have this 10 month old. I've wanted to be the kind master. I was much heavier handed with the other dog. I've noticed that she decides not to pickup things at times. If I insist (verbally, or physically bring her to the item), she shakes and actually cowers.

A few questions:

1. Am I in trouble already?

2. Do I have to force her (I will absolutely hunt waterfowl and upland birds with this dog). No trialing or competition.

3. What to do in this situation if forcing isn't perscribed?

Thanks all.

DG

[Ruffshooter]

First of all I wish to say I am not saying what I am going to say to be a jerk. I have been there my self.

I find regardless of which way you choose to teach your dog to make a complete retrieve to you, One needs to keep all emotion, loud mouthness and corpral punishment (to be PC) out of the training exercise. Things will go better and the dog will be less confused. Which I would say your dog is confused in the situation you described.

FF done properly with the right amount and type of correction will fix all and give the dog confidence.

Repetive, controlled and situational retreving training will work. Set up situations and lead the dog through the situations. There are many on here that do not do or believe in FF. They probally have good set ups to get you through the process.

I always FF. Those that don't have their reasons. I always look for "natural" retrieving dogs. They would be ones I would breed. If it were not then I would not breed the dog. FF is just a way for me to get the enthusiasitc amazing retrieves that I like in the manner I like.

Good luck
Rick

[djonathang]

Ruffshooter,

No offense taken.

Perhaps someone on the list can point me in the direction of positive setups so I/we can move in the right directions. To be clear, she retrieves fine (when it's out there), but when the item is at our feet, it's another story.

Thanks again.

DG

[snips]

She is obviously confused as to why you are trying to force her to pick things up without the proper steps to show her. FF done the right way should make her a reliable retriever that is happy and willing to comply.

[Don]

I FF my dog's. But I do it so that they retrieve on command only. I'm starting to think that we might be making to much of FF. Every dog doesn't need it. I'd guess that most dogs don't need it. Many of us seem to have forgotten how to get a dog to retrieve without it. Then the new people come on and all we talk about is how we don't mess with it, we just force the dog at the right time.

Sounds to me that your pup will be all right without it, just take it easy and give it time. That you may have a dog that will pick up anything you want, doesn't help a lot when all you want it to do is pick up a bird! Your pup is only ten months old and there's a lot of time between now and hunting season. Your pup is also a lab, aren't they bred to retrieve? I suspect that at some point she will be all the retriever you need, unless your going to trial. I think I'm gonna play train my next one just to see if I still can.

[wems2371]

How many times a week are you training on retrieving and how long are your training sessions on retrieving? How many times are you asking the pup to retrieve during a session? Are these all thrown retrieves, or just planted retrieves she's failing at. I know how addictive it can be when they're doing a good job, to keep throwing it. Then you throw it, say the 8th time, and then it's a bad one. I guess what I'm getting at is to not overdo it for her age. Find the point at which she's still successful and stop ahead of it.

When you say she won't pick it up when it's at your feet, what do you mean by that? Are you setting it down in front of you and then wanting her to pick it up? Or are you just throwing it a couple feet and then wanting her to retrieve it? If you can give just a little description of the event, that might help. Also, what have you done training-wise towards retrieving? .....like table fetching from hand, mid-way, off the table.... Just curious.

Maybe laying off retrieving a little bit will build more desire. Sticking to only using the one object she likes the most, whether it be a bumper/buck/tennisball/etc (and tease her good before the throw), until she is rock solid with that object. I also don't let my dog have regular access to the retrieving bumpers, they are for training only, and that keeps her very very excited about them. While the goal might be to get the dog to pick up anything as an end result, I think there's more clarity for the dog if you only work with one object initially until you get the dog rock solid at the task. She might be right-on when you get a bird for her to retrieve, and it sounds like that's what will matter most for you. It sounds like she is doing great overall, but you can't let her repeat the non-fetch, or you'll be going backwards in a hurry......and then you'll be in trouble.

I have to clarify that I'm somewhat of a newbie, so you can take my thoughts for what they're worth. When I first came to this board, I was very intimidated by all the FF talk................and even though I thought I didn't want to do it, I almost caved for all the wrong reasons. To each their own with that. I started with play fetching, did extensive hold work and table fetching work, moved on to the heel/fetch, have a good solid agressive/fast retrieve and am currently working on "the pile" (as I think people call it) of multiple planted bumpers and blind retrieves with a 1 yr old. I believe I had some good retrieving genetics to work with, as well as the training we did. I have had minor bumps along the way during the first year, and they all seemed like catastrophes at the time In my opinion, it's all about out-thinking the animal and finding alternative solutions..............and that is the challenge I'm loving. Denise

[gonehuntin']

First, let me say that ff is an art. Very few people can do it, fewer still do it well. But that's ok. As long as the end result is that a dog delivers the bird, it has been successful. What you'll find is that if you force the dog, the confusion and fear of a close object will cease. The dog will understand and know what you expect of her, and it will end your frustration with the dog.

[Rick Hall]

Ruffshooter,

No offense taken.

Perhaps someone on the list can point me in the direction of positive setups so I/we can move in the right directions. To be clear, she retrieves fine (when it's out there), but when the item is at our feet, it's another story.

Thanks again.

DG

I'm wondering what the "item" is? And why you want it picked up at your feet?

Dogs are contextual learners, and if the "item" is something the dog already associates with retrieving, that's one thing, but if not, it's another. And dropping a bumper or bird too soon is different than not picking it up in the first place.

[Goosehunterdog]

I would recommend that you follow a solid training program such as Smartfetch book or DVD..

[Englishsetterhunter]

i forced fetched my english setter and it worked great and she needs a very very gentle hand stern words work and force fetching and you'd think she wasy being tortured when i first used the toe hitch on her after she learned hold eventually we got to retrieving down the table and all of a sudden force fetching wasnt that bad she was just confused as to why her master was suddenly causing her pain until she figured out what to do and that is retrieve so after that she did not need to have her toe pulled and she retrieved down the table. transitioning to the collar was fine on the table everything went wel but when it came time to go to the ground she freaked out so i went back to the toe hitch and just ussed that on the ground which sucked but it worked she now retrieves enthusiastically so you just gotta try to work through it if the dog is shaking uncontrollably and acting like its on death row go back to the previous step etc. id say force fetching is a must for all breeds even natural retrievers.

[h20fwlkillr]

If she is retrieving when "it's out there" and you aren't trialing or running tests, then I wouldn't FF her. I wouldn't worry about a dog not picking something up at my feet.