Breaking Wing to shot

[PowerPoint]

Any vids out there that walk you thru this?

[Ryan Baumann]

ywallac has a couple i know. Very good stuff. maybe he will post them for you.

Ryan.

[mtlee]

Go to youtube.com and search for "rosscallaway" His videos will pop up.

[AHGSP]

Go to youtube.com and search for "rosscallaway" His videos will pop up.

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_q ... &aq=-1&oq=

[PowerPoint]

Ok-I watched them all,and with no verbal,or text I tried to figure oput what he was doing.I suppose you let your dog establish point,hold for a bit,release bird from launcher,and when the dog breaks, sit him back up,and say whoa,and let him re-establish point,and keep repeating this process? How do you end the session?Pick dog up,and carry away?Is there any sort of reward for doing it right? And does sitting the dog back up after flush teach false pointing?I was hoping for a bit more detailed dvd,or somehting I could purchase..But thanks for the links they were good!

[RayGubernat]

Powerpoint -

The whoa post method you saw on the videos is different from some methods but all the restraint type methods I know about share two critical similarities.

First, the dog is taught to stop and stand, or whoa if you wish...WITHOUT BIRDS. Alos, for best effect, the dog is taught, at least inititally, with no verbal command from the trainer, just non verbal cues...in the case you witnessed, rope cues. which were then overlaid with e-collar cues.

Whoa is(or should be) an obedidence command, a yardwork command and it means simply that the dog must stop and must stand without moving so much as a toenail, until released.

When the dog does that...off lead in the yard and does it reliably...time after time... it is then time to introduce birds into the equation...not before.

I don't use the whoa post myself but the video was very good. It showed how to correct the dog when it moved and it shoed that even the slightest foot movement was to be instqntly corrected. It also showed that a few gentle strokes are all the reward the dog needs.

It is important to understand that the process takes days, not minutes, and is accomplished with multiple repetitions on successive days. What you saw was three training sessions out of many. You are not done in the yard until the dog stands with slck cord on the whoa post and doesn't movbe, even though you push, pull, walk around make noise, flail your arms, throw things,...whatever.

The second similarity between all the restraint methods relates to the birds portion of the process. It is important...no it its VITAL that the scent of the bird becomes the "whoa ' command. Certainly the sight of the bird should trigger the whoa response.

The instant the dog scents the bird, you want its inbred instinct to point, which you have amplified with the yardwork whoa training... to kick in. You want the bird and its scent to say
!!!!WHOA!!!! to the dog so you don't have to either verbally or with the chekcord or the e-collar.

RayG

[PowerPoint]

Thanks-I have whoa broke several dogs,and undersand all the methods on that thouroughly.It was the wing to shot I am referencing to,I use the bench when pups,then barrell witha chain to connect their collar to,and then whoa post later,then form their into the field flank cord,and e-collar around flank.

[Yawallac]

Powerpoint,

Sorry, those were not meant to be "trainer" videos... They were just training videos that I shot.

I do not use a whoa post, pinch collar or ecollar for steadiness training and I rarely teach the whoa command. My broke shooting dogs wouldn't even understand the command. I let the bird teach the dog the manners that I am looking for. In other words, when the dog responds with an undesired behavior the bird flushes. I don't talk to the dog while on point other than I sometimes catch myself whispering in a soothing tone ...then I stop.

The idea during those video sessions was to allow the dog to scent point a pigeon in a launcher with another planted launcher close by. After the dog establishes point I let he and the bird figure it out. If he moves then the bird goes. I quietly and gently reset the dog then carefully and slowly move back out of his vision. In the early lessons the second launcher is also placed in the scent cone so that after I reset him he will scent that bird and become intense again. When he moves, that bird is then launched as well. After the second bird is launched I reset him again just briefly then pick him up and carry him out of the trainng area.

I always use multiple launches for this training for a specific reason. The dog quickly learns to expect an additional bird and if he's not careful that bird will launch. That has two significant benefits. First, it teaches them not chase. Once they learn that there is always an additional bird the desire to chase ends and it speeds up the breaking phase dramatically. Second, and this is particularly important for a trial dog, once they learn there is another bird ...they remain intense throughout the flushing process AND THEN CONTINUE TO REMAIN INTENSE EVEN AFTER THE FIRST BIRD IS GONE!!

Does that make a difference?? You bet it does. Imagine kicking around, flushing, firing and looking back at a dog that still looks like a statue!

BTW, you can use the same principle for teaching backing. That is really a show stopper to watch the backing dog remain absolutely INTENSE even after the pointing dog has been released after the whole sequence is over. The backing dog still doesn't dare to even blink!

All of this is done with very little input from me. The dog is under little to no pressure. The results are very good because the bird teaches him everything, not me.

-------------

Note: Sometimes with a particularly hard-headed dog or if I need to speed up the process I will teach the whoa command on a table. Like I said before I don't use the command much but sometimes it's necessary. But even then once they learn the manners on game that I am looking for on the table I quickly head back to the field and become silent again.

Hope this helps.

[jhoughton]

Great post Ross...

[PowerPoint]

AH..THATS WHAT I WAS LOOKING FOR! THANKS!!

[topher40]

PowerPoint-
If you havent ever broke a dog STW&S I would get in with a local trainer. Maybe its just me but I cant learn near as much when someone tells me, but if you show me I got it. I think there are so many little intricate details to breaking a dog STW&S that you really NEED someone to walk you through it with a couple of different dogs and see the process from start to finish. That way you can see them doing it, see why they do it, and ask questions while they are doing it.