New puppy and older dog

fdsjr · Post by **fdsjr** » Tue Jun 21, 2005 3:32 am

I just got a new puppy (Vizsla) but I have a ten year old dog (Dalmation). The dal is getting possesive over his toys like his bone and his ball. This is normal right?? I dont know whether to let it go or correct him and take it away. Ive been doing both I just dont know which is right. I can tell the Dal is getting jealous already and ive had the Vizsla only one day. Ive been petting the dal for a long time right in front of the pup to show him whose alpha. (dont get me wrong the Vizsla is getting plenty of attention too). How else can I help his jealously?? I dont want him to be jealous and I want him to feel he is still the alpha. Any and all tips on raising the pup with the older dog will be VERY helpful!!

dhondtm · Post by **dhondtm** » Tue Jun 21, 2005 7:38 am

I have a 3 yr old Weim and a Vizsla pup and run across the same issues. My Weim always is interested in whatever the puppy has. For the most part I let them figure it out. I always hear how soft Vizsla's can be, I figure this environment will only make her more bold.

I've taught my Weim a break command. Which means to break it up. Anytime she is playing even at dog parks if I feel it is getting out of hand or has just gone on long enough I will yell out break. Cassi (weim) is expected to come to my side at that point until I release her again.

I use this occasionally when I see her constantly stealing a toy or bone and I make her wait a bit to give the puppy some alone time. Then I release her again and let them play some more.

fdsjr · Post by **fdsjr** » Tue Jun 21, 2005 8:47 am

dhondtm wrote:I have a 3 yr old Weim and a Vizsla pup and run across the same issues. My Weim always is interested in whatever the puppy has. For the most part I let them figure it out. I always hear how soft Vizsla's can be, I figure this environment will only make her more bold.

I've taught my Weim a break command. Which means to break it up. Anytime she is playing even at dog parks if I feel it is getting out of hand or has just gone on long enough I will yell out break. Cassi (weim) is expected to come to my side at that point until I release her again.

I use this occasionally when I see her constantly stealing a toy or bone and I make her wait a bit to give the puppy some alone time. Then I release her again and let them play some more.

Ive been passively using "enough", but now that you say that i'll definately try to use it more, at appropriate times. Duke has been listening to it but I dont know if I can get him to come to my side like your weim. We havent taught him very many commands, but he picks up on key words all the time. Although the command will still be very useful otherwise.

Ryan · Post by **Ryan** » Tue Jun 21, 2005 12:15 pm

Just clip a rope on him. WHen you give the command and he doesnt come to your side pull him in as fast as you can without hurting him. After he is there give him praise and sweet talk him

fdsjr · Post by **fdsjr** » Tue Jun 21, 2005 1:24 pm

Ryan wrote:Just clip a rope on him. WHen you give the command and he doesnt come to your side pull him in as fast as you can without hurting him. After he is there give him praise and sweet talk him

I dont think im gonna try that right now. Duke's world is rocked enough right now... ill give him some time to adapt. Plus hes a stubborn son of a gun...

The only commands Duke knows are "Duke", his whistle tune, no, good boy, inside, outside, lay, sit, and food. Hes 10, I dont know if hed catch on... hed probably be one very confused dog.

birddog · Post by **birddog** » Tue Jun 21, 2005 2:04 pm

My thoughts are: Your Dal has squaters rights. He was there first and should not be corrected because he does not accept the pup. Its the pup that needs to be corrected to leave the Dal alone. As time passes both will learn to accept each other, but for now, it is the puppy who must yeild to the Dal's space. They do not need to play and ruff house or even have much contact. Keep the pup under controll and away from the Dal and do not let the pup harrass the older dog. In time, the older dog will learn to accept the puppy.

Janet

fdsjr · Post by **fdsjr** » Tue Jun 21, 2005 2:10 pm

dhondtm wrote:
I use this occasionally when I see her constantly stealing a toy or bone and I make her wait a bit to give the puppy some alone time. Then I release her again and let them play some more.

I tried this, Bonham started barking at him. (which is probably normal, right??)

Although Bonham does need a chew toy, hes teething... how do I establish that they each get a bone?? Now Duke thinks he gets all the toys and hes possesive of all!! He'll growl if anyone, especially Bonham, gets close. Except for my mom, dad, and me. What should I do??

Ryan · Post by **Ryan** » Tue Jun 21, 2005 5:29 pm

I smak my dog with a paper when she did that. She deals with kids alot I dont want her growling at them. The kids can now get their faces right into hers when she is chewing on a bone and all she does is turn the other way or stand up and walk away.

I know this may seem harsh but I would rather do this then have to put her down because she bit some kids. Plus I would feel really bad if she did.

fdsjr · Post by **fdsjr** » Wed Jun 22, 2005 12:15 pm

Now my Dal is attacking my Vizsla!!!! For no reason too... the Vizsla was barking at this squeak toy and the the Dal came up and bit and shook him. Then when they were outside... the Vizsla was trying to play with the Dal, fromping and running around it, and the Dal did it again but alot worse, grabbed him and shook him!!! WHAT DO I DO!!!!! PLEASE HELP!!!!!!!!!!!!!

(I slapped the Dal and sent him downstairs for his correction.)

Ryan · Post by **Ryan** » Wed Jun 22, 2005 5:16 pm

Its too aggressive now you will have to choose the dal or the viz. I dont think you could break the dal. A shock collar will be the best way, or force with a very hard and or stick. That shouldnt be put up with.

fdsjr · Post by **fdsjr** » Wed Jun 22, 2005 5:47 pm

Ryan wrote:Its too aggressive now you will have to choose the dal or the viz. I dont think you could break the dal. A shock collar will be the best way, or force with a very hard and or stick. That shouldnt be put up with.

I didnt think so. Not to sound like a "bleep"... hes getting stubborn, grumpy, isnt listening like he use to, and has arthritis in his back legs. I hate to say it but his life is coming to an end...

. Hes 10, we lost our other Dal at 10 1/2 - 11. We're gonna have to think long and hard about this... if hes gonna keep this up... something might have to be done. I wont tolerate him treating a defenseless puppy this way. I could see if he was just putting the puppy in his place or showing dominance. But I think its beyond that...

Ryan · Post by **Ryan** » Wed Jun 22, 2005 5:55 pm

Yes it would be different if the puppy was constantly harassing him but if the pup is doing nothing to provoke him then somthing should be done. ANother thing is to buy 2 new toys and give one to each. Scold the other when he has the others toy this way they each have one.

ward myers · Post by **ward myers** » Wed Jun 22, 2005 8:13 pm

we are picking up a puppy this weekend.
we have 2 GSP'S in the house now.
looks like we will have our hands full after reading all this.
:shock:

fdsjr · Post by **fdsjr** » Wed Jun 22, 2005 8:46 pm

Ryan wrote:Yes it would be different if the puppy was constantly harassing him but if the pup is doing nothing to provoke him then somthing should be done. ANother thing is to buy 2 new toys and give one to each. Scold the other when he has the others toy this way they each have one.

Actually, we just did that. We got that dal a stuffed squirrl, and the V a small rawhide. He still thinks the small raw hide is his and steals it right from the V...

fdsjr · Post by **fdsjr** » Sat Jul 02, 2005 1:38 pm

Hes showing alot of aggressive behavior towards the pup, more and more each day. Everytime the pup walks by he glares or growls, or both. Ive seen him with all his teeth showing, his lips peeled back, glaring and growling very deeply. It scares me!! Hes attacked the pup several times, the worst was today... They were outside in the yard the Dal was laying down and the pup walked up. Out of nowhere the Dal attacked him good, theres now a small "chunk" out of the pups snout. He would of kept going if I wouldnt have stopped him. This saddens and puzzles me imensely! Nothing has changed as far as the way we are treating the Dal, we give him more attention then the pup. (To prevent jelousy) What do I need to do??

Margaret · Post by **Margaret** » Sat Jul 02, 2005 4:57 pm

It looks like only one is going to be allowed out at a time, at least until the pup is older.

Have you got any mediaction for the Dalmation, being in pain from arthritis may be worsening the situation.

http://www.trader.co.nz/versatiledogs/a ... newpup.htm

Marg

Ryan · Post by **Ryan** » Sat Jul 02, 2005 8:06 pm

I would have shot the Dal already but you probally dont want to do that. The best thing to do is find a family that wants the dal for its last years or find a family that wants ur V

fdsjr · Post by **fdsjr** » Sat Jul 02, 2005 9:58 pm

Margaret wrote:It looks like only one is going to be allowed out at a time, at least until the pup is older.

Have you got any mediaction for the Dalmation, being in pain from arthritis may be worsening the situation.

http://www.trader.co.nz/versatiledogs/a ... newpup.htm

Marg

We have a relaxor for the Dal, although my mom wont let me use it. He pees in the house when hes on it, it helps alot though. Theres this pill that my neighbor's sister uses for their dog, were gonna get him on that. (I cant think of the name off hand)

fdsjr · Post by **fdsjr** » Sat Jul 02, 2005 10:07 pm

Ryan wrote:I would have shot the Dal already but you probally dont want to do that. The best thing to do is find a family that wants the dal for its last years or find a family that wants ur V

We're contimplating putting the Dal down as a last resort, maybe a muzzle if it doesnt get better. But I really couldnt watch my dog walking around with a muzzle, neither could the neighborhood. (Then again, I couldnt stand watching no dogs walking around) I honestly want to put him down, I know it may sound cruel. If he ends up killing the V, we'll definatly have to put the Dal down, and then no dogs at all... The Dal is 10 years old nearing the end of his life, hes got arthris in his back legs, and the way hes treating this puppy, it cant go on...

There is no way im finding a family for the V. Hes here to stay.

We're gonna let it ride a little bit longer, and keep watching them like a hawk ALWAYS. We're gonna talk to our vet about it in the next couple days, get some professional input. But any more input on what you would do would be a great help too.

Margaret · Post by **Margaret** » Sat Jul 02, 2005 11:13 pm

I'd definately get some treatment from the vet first to help the Dally.

Also, like I said, you will have to keep them seperated.
Maybe a dog motel (kennel with pen) or front yard back yard system.
You don't want your puppy being killed or seriously injured, and remember that what happens to pup in these early days shapes the pup for life.

I would expect that as pup ages the dalmation will get less aggressive, a bit more cautious, but this is going to mean some months of vigilance.

If you read the article you will see that your Daly is also no doubt struggling to remain top of the doggy list, and how can you blame him? He's been there for 10 years. And being in pain makes us irritable too.

See what your vet thinks about the Dalmations condition, if he feels the dog is very uncomfortable and not much that can be done, then it may be you will have to do him a kindness.

Ryan · Post by **Ryan** » Sat Jul 02, 2005 11:45 pm

He may be trying to remain top dog and he should be putting the pup in his place but physical harm but ripping and tearing of the pup shouldnt be tolerated. Telling you man beat the <bleep> out of that dog. He has to know that it isnt allowed. Whats more important ur dog walking around with a muzzle or a dead dog. Personaly I would get rid of one. Didnt know dals could be so vicous.
<profanity bleeped by moderator. take care, folks, my kids read the forum>

dhondtm · Post by **dhondtm** » Sun Jul 03, 2005 12:02 am

Yeah put him down thats what your cousin would do. :gib:

Ryan · Post by **Ryan** » Sun Jul 03, 2005 12:04 am

would u rather have the dal kill the pup

Post by **pear** » Sun Jul 03, 2005 6:31 am

Ryan, I can't believe you even said that !!! The Dalmatian, killing the pup is not really the issue. This issue is folks taking the easy way out !!! (Easy for them not the dog). Finding middle ground is the issue. Find a good home for the Dalmatian. Spend some real quality time socializing the Vizsala, with the Dalmatian. I brought a three year old cat hating GSP into my household, and socialized her with the family cat and have no problems, with the pair at all. Let a stray wonder in and look out.................... IT'S CALLED TIME AND EFFORT !!!!!! It infuriates me to think someone would be so narrow minded as to throw two animals together, and expect them to interact as if they were long lost bud's. These two can be made friends, in my opinion, and if for some odd reason they can't. Fostering, is a wonderful option!!!! Ten years old is not reaching the end of it's life in most cases, I suspect not in this one either. Tell you what I'm prepared to do, If I hear that the Dalmatian, was put down for non socialization, I'll make every effort I can through every means I have, too see to it the Vizsla is removed from the home and placed in foster care. The internet has shrunk the world we live in making the proper contacts, becomes no real problem. I'm sorry but not come the hard line..............fdsjr, I really don't believe, you deserve to be a pet owner, or at least you haven't demonstrated it by your postings here on the board, and Ryan, rethink what you said.........ONE "T'd" OFF "PEAR"

Colleen · Post by **Colleen** » Sun Jul 03, 2005 7:24 am

IT'S CALLED TIME AND EFFORT !!!!!!

Huh? What's that? And why would you waste it when you can just get rid of the problem?

(FWIW, it's dripping with sarcasm)

Post by **pear** » Sun Jul 03, 2005 7:51 am

Colleen, I take that with every bit of the intended sarcasm

.

However I guess taking a more realistic point of view, we do live in a disposable society. We buy a new watch because it's cheaper than a battery, eat on disposable dishes, fill our landfills with new, but out-dated electronics technology, and tear down perfectly good sound buildings, to build new ones. I guess the example is being set............."Throw it away and get a new one".........I'll try not to set idly by on this issues at hand, our would must surely still have some value on issues like these.

fdsjr · Post by **fdsjr** » Sun Jul 03, 2005 9:30 am

pear wrote:fdsjr, I really don't believe, you deserve to be a pet owner, or at least you haven't demonstrated it by your postings here on the board

I dont think you have the basis to make that judgement. Explain!

Some of my postings may have made me look like I knew completely nothing. I made general posts to help me reinforce what I already knew. Some things I was curious knew the basics about and wanted a second opinion to learn more.

Putting him down would have been a LAST RESORT. Besides their relationship is now better after he bit the pup. It was probably just a showing of dominance. It just scared the heck out of me! There is no way we had any intention of putting him down anytime soon. Its too early they are still adapting, I mean its been 2 weeks. You had me wrong.

Post by **pear** » Sun Jul 03, 2005 10:52 am

No fdsjr, I think I took it just as you stated it............I went back over this post and you mentioned on at least one other occasion, about putting the Dalmatian down. As well the post you made about your cousin's dog being put down. It's pretty obvious, sublimitivly you are asking for approval from someone, and displaying passive aggressive behavior. Now after going back and looking I see that you joined the forum 06/06/05, and have posted 84 times,(today is only 7/03/05). I'd like to point out that many of your post have been very productive, and I hope you make many more productive posts. However many of your post have simply been passive questions that you know will keep your name and posts going, thus truly being and passive statement, meant to create an aggressive atmosphere on the board. Please do me a favor and think out your posts, so that what is posted here will be of a productive nature, and we can all benefit from them as achieved posts in the future............Oh incase your wondering, I have some experience, on the psychological aspects of my post, from the learned end not the displaying end..............continuing education is a wonderful thing......
Bottom line here fdsjr, you know the real answers to your questions, you just lack the confidence to proceed without approval so you seek acceptance........"pear"

Oh and putting him down as a last resort is truly NOT an option, for a Dalmatian, showing aggressive behavior...........a Dal is not a Pit Bull.......... Fostering is your last option in this case......"pear"

dhondtm · Post by **dhondtm** » Sun Jul 03, 2005 11:15 am

Thanks, Pear very well said. I couldn't put the words together to speak my emotions. But, my emotions got the best of me and I couldn't remain silent. My post obviously sarcastic, but I guess thats sometimes hard to see when written.

Run Dal, Run!!!

Ryan · Post by **Ryan** » Sun Jul 03, 2005 11:49 am

pear wrote:Ryan, I can't believe you even said that !!! The Dalmatian, killing the pup is not really the issue. This issue is folks taking the easy way out !!! (Easy for them not the dog). Finding middle ground is the issue. Find a good home for the Dalmatian. Spend some real quality time socializing the Vizsala, with the Dalmatian. I brought a three year old cat hating GSP into my household, and socialized her with the family cat and have no problems, with the pair at all. Let a stray wonder in and look out.................... IT'S CALLED TIME AND EFFORT !!!!!! It infuriates me to think someone would be so narrow minded as to throw two animals together, and expect them to interact as if they were long lost bud's. These two can be made friends, in my opinion, and if for some odd reason they can't. Fostering, is a wonderful option!!!! Ten years old is not reaching the end of it's life in most cases, I suspect not in this one either. Tell you what I'm prepared to do, If I hear that the Dalmatian, was put down for non socialization, I'll make every effort I can through every means I have, too see to it the Vizsla is removed from the home and placed in foster care. The internet has shrunk the world we live in making the proper contacts, becomes no real problem. I'm sorry but not come the hard line..............fdsjr, I really don't believe, you deserve to be a pet owner, or at least you haven't demonstrated it by your postings here on the board, and Ryan, rethink what you said.........ONE "T'd" OFF "PEAR"

Pear I didnt mean it that way. He made it sound like he didnt want to take the time to socialize and wanted the fast way out. I am sorry.

I would have taken the time myself. I have had to go through it when we had our setter. I spend about a month socialized a little red ball of energy with a Pomeranian that hates anything that is that hyper. Now they are great friends and the pom even sleeps on the setter. It is hard to do but It can be done. It will be even harder with the resident dog being bigger than the new comer.

Once again I am sorry for that post.

fdsjr · Post by **fdsjr** » Sun Jul 03, 2005 12:14 pm

pear wrote:No fdsjr, I think I took it just as you stated it............I went back over this post and you mentioned on at least one other occasion, about putting the Dalmatian down. As well the post you made about your cousin's dog being put down. It's pretty obvious, sublimitivly you are asking for approval from someone, and displaying passive aggressive behavior. Now after going back and looking I see that you joined the forum 06/06/05, and have posted 84 times,(today is only 7/03/05). I'd like to point out that many of your post have been very productive, and I hope you make many more productive posts. However many of your post have simply been passive questions that you know will keep your name and posts going, thus truly being and passive statement, meant to create an aggressive atmosphere on the board.

I had no intension of doing this.

Please do me a favor and think out your posts, so that what is posted here will be of a productive nature, and we can all benefit from them as achieved posts in the future............

I will make a more conscience effort to do so.

Oh incase your wondering, I have some experience, on the psychological aspects of my post, from the learned end not the displaying end..............continuing education is a wonderful thing......
Bottom line here fdsjr, you know the real answers to your questions, you just lack the confidence to proceed without approval so you seek acceptance........"pear"[/quote]

I have to agree with that. I lack confidence, I like a second opinion just to back up mine. Its a problem I know...

fdsjr · Post by **fdsjr** » Sun Jul 03, 2005 12:21 pm

Ryan wrote:
pear wrote:Ryan, I can't believe you even said that !!! The Dalmatian, killing the pup is not really the issue. This issue is folks taking the easy way out !!! (Easy for them not the dog). Finding middle ground is the issue. Find a good home for the Dalmatian. Spend some real quality time socializing the Vizsala, with the Dalmatian. I brought a three year old cat hating GSP into my household, and socialized her with the family cat and have no problems, with the pair at all. Let a stray wonder in and look out.................... IT'S CALLED TIME AND EFFORT !!!!!! It infuriates me to think someone would be so narrow minded as to throw two animals together, and expect them to interact as if they were long lost bud's. These two can be made friends, in my opinion, and if for some odd reason they can't. Fostering, is a wonderful option!!!! Ten years old is not reaching the end of it's life in most cases, I suspect not in this one either. Tell you what I'm prepared to do, If I hear that the Dalmatian, was put down for non socialization, I'll make every effort I can through every means I have, too see to it the Vizsla is removed from the home and placed in foster care. The internet has shrunk the world we live in making the proper contacts, becomes no real problem. I'm sorry but not come the hard line..............fdsjr, I really don't believe, you deserve to be a pet owner, or at least you haven't demonstrated it by your postings here on the board, and Ryan, rethink what you said.........ONE "T'd" OFF "PEAR"

Pear I didnt mean it that way. He made it sound like he didnt want to take the time to socialize and wanted the fast way out. I am sorry.

I dont know, I may have sounded that way, it seems like it from your replies... Im sorry. I love dogs to no end. I was just a little upset from the incident and needed a little guidance... I will now turn to my vet for help, as I should have done in the first place. Thanks everyone for their input. Take it easy...

P.S. Just to reasure you guys the Dal isnt going anywhere, and socialization will continue on for both dogs...

Margaret · Post by **Margaret** » Sun Jul 03, 2005 4:10 pm

It has happened though. I have a friend whose dog
bit her puppy on the muzzle, tooth went through the top into the
roof of the mouth.
Vet said there was nothing really that could be done for the pup.

Richard *UT* · Post by Richard *UT* » Mon Jul 04, 2005 5:21 am

Ok as you can see I am new to this site and new to training gun dogs. I am not new to dogs though and I think something has been over looked here. There is a difference between dog working out dominance, and dogs being aggresive. Dominance usually involves alot of growling and some crying out but very little blood. Aggresive behavior is just as has been described. Serious biting, blood, shaking, there is an intent to hurt the other dog. This cannot be tolerated. Ryan was right. Sometimes a dog has to be handled. You have to stop the behavior, whatever it takes. A dog acting spoiled and not wanting to share is nothing new. Giving more toys will not help. I should admit a bias. I am not a fan of the Dal breed. I have only been around 3 but all 3 were biters. None seamed to have much going on upstairs. But my feeling about aggresive biting dogs has nothing to do with Dalmations. I watched an AKC video on dog training. In my experience the AKC almost always advocates being kind to dogs and using kind training techniques. On the video they made a strong point re: aggresive behavior. They said the same thing I have. The behavior has to be stopped. Then they showed a kennel where multiple dogs were attacking another dog, and this is what is happening here, and on the video, sanctioned by the AKC, they showed a guy go in with a 2 x 2 and hit three dogs. One of the dogs had to be hit twice. These were not small strikes, they were hard hits. I think this says alot. I have had experience with boxers and boxers can be vicious. Unacceptable. I do think a muzzle is infinitely better than putting a dog down. You can enjoy the Dal still but you will not be able to trust him around the V for a long while. A muzzle lets you enjoy both without having to watch them like a hawk, which is what you will have to do. Once dogs progress to this kind of behavior socialization will take much longer and it is too late for letting the dogs run around together without your V being protected. That has been my experience. I hope is doesn't fall on deaf ears just because I don't post as much as I read others post.

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Mon Jul 04, 2005 7:03 am

I vote with Richard and pear. With Richard, because he is right about aggressive behaviour. If allowed to continue, it is a death sentence for a dog, so strong measures need to be taken to stop it. Hitting a dog with a 2 x 2 is pretty strong, and not where I would start, but I would whack the dog with a rolled up newspaper or a lead, and yell alot. If the display continued at all, I would progress pretty quickly to something stronger. Adopting out an aggressive dog just moves the problem somewhere else, and a dog that picks up a pup and shakes it is a killer, plain and simple.

Have seen dogs get "grouchy" with age, just like humans, especially where they are getting arthritic and therefore defensive of their bodies, but they have to know right now that they can be grumpy, but aggressive behaviour will not be tolerated under any circumstances.

I vote with pear on your posts, fds, and am concerned about the drift. I wonder, are you maybe from Yale, or PETA?

Was I the only person that was concerned about the drift of that "Weim put down" post? Even the title was written to catch the eye of Weim owners and get them in a mood to argue. Cousin was "arrogant,""rich," and put a 4 year old down without a second thought because his wife made him do it? Come on, was there no one who maybe wanted to hear the cousin's side of the story, assuming the whole story was real at all? No one who thought maybe there was another side to it that we were not hearing? Dog was protective maybe, and went after the neighbor's dog or the neighbor's kid, maybe was aggressive with the couple's own kids, or the wife? Frankly, it looked to me like the whole story was concocted to move the audience in one direction. Go get your torches and let's find Quasimodo! Not very interesting.

Would personally prefer to have some intelligent conversation about bird dog training.

Richard *UT* · Post by Richard *UT* » Mon Jul 04, 2005 10:00 am

I just want to make one thing clear. I do not advocate hitting dogs with 2 x 2s. It is way too heavy handed. That is just what I saw on the AKC video. Even with my Boxer I have never had to hit him with anything more than newspaper. I just wanted to make the point that even the AKC realizes that truly aggresive behavior has to be stopped. There...That said I will go back to reading all your posts, learning from them, and stop posting till I have something to contribute. Thanks y'all

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Mon Jul 04, 2005 11:35 am

Richard-

I don't think anyone read your post as saying you would weigh in wacking. Your point was that aggressive behaviour requires immediate and strong action. You were absolutely right. Maybe I am reading too much into your post, but my view of it is that you do this stuff to save the dog, not out of anger or some warped desire to inflict corporal punishment on an animal. Because if you let them become vicious, they have to go.

Ryan · Post by **Ryan** » Mon Jul 04, 2005 12:54 pm

YOu could use a muzzle with a e collar as well. When the dog bares his teeth give him a good zap. THis way it isnt you who is huting him. DO NOT TAKE THE COLLAR OFF when he is around the puppy though ever. PLus when the dal dies you will have an e collar for your pup. In my experience Tri-tronics has been the best line JMO.

dhondtm · Post by **dhondtm** » Mon Jul 04, 2005 4:26 pm

Am I the only one who thinks hitting a dog in any way is just going to make it more agressive?

Ryan · Post by **Ryan** » Mon Jul 04, 2005 4:54 pm

No not aggressive more timid. WHen u hit them it doesnt make them aggressive. IMO

snips · Post by **snips** » Mon Jul 04, 2005 5:30 pm

There is a fine line in an older dog teaching youngster a lesson and really putting the hurt on. Pups always need the guy that will just give `em a good roll or scare without breaking the skin. All pups that come in here are taught a lesson by the old man, and they are no worse for wear, just come away a lot wiser. The dog that is dangerous to have pup around is another story. I don`t hit dogs, but I will string one up real quick. Picking a dog up high and let them worry about their air WILL change their way of thinking. I had a wonderful Springer once that was sweet in every way unless one of my shorthairs got between him and me,whether a male or female, the green eyed monster would come out. My obedience instructor told me to put a choke chain on him and when he started for the dog pick him up and hang him. I did. It took 2 times, the second he feared for his life, after that when ever he got mad he`s head under the table and stay til his temper resided. Never happened again....

Casper · Post by **Casper** » Mon Jul 04, 2005 7:38 pm

One thing I have learned is from a man by the name of Cesar Milan(sp). Cesar airs a show on the National Geografic channel. He specializes in aggressive behavior. I cannot vouch for how he does this it is only second hand knowledge.

He will teach an aggressive dog heel and who is dominant (Cesar). Once he has established dominace where the dog will comply to his body language he then will have the dog roll on to its back exposing its belly. Once this is achieved he will have the dog on its back and bring in another dog and allow the other dog to smell and stand over the dog being taught to be submissive.

With repetion any dog can be taught to be submissive and tolerate another dog.

I would encourage that you NOT attempt this on your own. If you can find a trainer who specializes is dog aggression and seek their guidence. I would also recomend for all to watch this program you might learn something to help better your own training when it comes to the psychology of dogs

ViniferaVizslas · Post by **ViniferaVizslas** » Tue Jul 05, 2005 9:31 am

Get rid of the Dalmation now. Today it's your pup. Tomorrow it'll be the neighbor dog or some kid. If you don't get rid of it you'll have a dead pup and you'll still have to get rid of the other dog. You'll want to at that point.

Post by **ezzy333** » Tue Jul 05, 2005 12:02 pm

Vinne, If I follow your line of thinking that the dog will just get worse, where do you think he should get rid of the dog? Are you suggesting that he give it to some unsuppecting person?

I just can't agree with you. They have had the Dal for 10 years. The dog didn't just get possesive in the last month. The change has been that a pup was brought in to the Dals world and it doesn't know how to handle that. I think it is up to the owner to help the Dal and if it can't be trained to accept the pup then it means you keep them seperate till the pup grows up a little.

The easy way, which has already been discussed, is get rid of the Dal in one way or another. The correct way is to spend the time and energy to correct the situation. Lets hope we decide on the correct way.

Ezzy

Grey Ghost · Post by **Grey Ghost** » Tue Jul 05, 2005 12:10 pm

There's so much to respond to, I don't know where to start.

OK, to both Ryan and fdsjr: Pear is right, both of you need to be more careful in your posts. Now, you've both already retracted and appologized, but at the risk of beating a dead horse, I have to sound-off on this. Your posts left very little room for interpretation. To say something like "I would have shot the dog by now" and then say that you weren't advocating any such thing is a pretty severe blow to your credibility. How are we supposed to know what you mean in the future?

Richard *UT*: My experiences with Dal's has been similar. I'd say the breed has suffered due to poor breeding practices inspired by Walt Disney.

Wagonmaster: Grant alluded to there being more to that story as well. And yeah, there probably is. However, I'll give fdsjr the benefit of the doubt that he was reacting to everyone elses posts (i.e. agreeing with his new friends) and not acting as an agent for PETA in some plot to undermine the wealthy.

Brenda: I don't mean to criticize you, but I read your post with some degree of amazement. That sounds like an excellent way to injure your dog. Anyway, I'm sure you were careful and it sounds like it worked for you and that your dog was no worse for it. So, I guess my reaction is unwarranted. As a footnote; it also sounds like a twist on the Koehler method. For those that don't know, Bill Koehler started out training dogs for the military during WWII and continued training until his death (sometime in the 1980's, I think). After the war, Koehler specialized in turning around aggressive dogs. His methods, which are based on negative reinforcement, are well known and often criticized as cruel. Years ago, I read an article by Koehler's son where he claimed that his father only "hung" one dog in his entire carreer (i.e. he only encountered one that was so bad that it needed that kind of treatment). My understanding, and I could be wrong about this, was that the dog was hung in a harness, not by a choke collar.

Marg: Right on. Keep 'em separated, at least for now.

mountaindogs · Post by **mountaindogs** » Tue Jul 05, 2005 12:11 pm

In all of these posts, I have not seen enough mention of how the puppy is acting. Is the puppy shy, skittish, bold, pushy. I would take that into consideration. You can't tolerate the aggression from the older dog, but interdog conflicts have two sides to the equation. You can't fix it without considering both sides of the problem. Once you have a good idea what is going on, what sets off the older dog, and how much each dog is crossing the tolerable behavior line, THEN you have some idea where to start. Rarely if ever does it involve training only one of the dogs. Also, in this case, you are part of the equation too. How you act towards each dog in front of the other matters.

Also consider outside socialization of the puppy ASAP. Such as enroll in a "puppy class" so it doesn't develope a fear of other dogs. Make sure your vaccinations are up to date and all first. (and always

Post by **grant** » Tue Jul 05, 2005 12:20 pm

Grey Ghost wrote:
Wagonmaster: Grant alluded to there being more to that story as well. And yeah, there probably is. However, I'll give fdsjr the benefit of the doubt that he was reacting to everyone elses posts (i.e. agreeing with his new friends) and not acting as an agent for PETA in some plot to undermine the wealthy.

I’m not sure I alluded to anything… I haven’t posted on this topic yet… =)

Grey Ghost · Post by **Grey Ghost** » Tue Jul 05, 2005 12:29 pm

grant wrote:I’m not sure I alluded to anything… I haven’t posted on this topic yet… =)

I was referring to the "Weim put down" thread. You said "makes me wonder if the dog had other problems".

Post by **grant** » Tue Jul 05, 2005 1:12 pm

Ok, I just read through this topic and looked at my post on the weim thread. I should have read the whole topic before I posted…

In this thread, there’s so many variables that are unknown. I will say that I would not tolerate aggressive behavior from my dogs toward a human or other dog. If they made the decision to do so, they’d catch more than a piece of paper upside the head. If the older dog is ill and grouchy, and in return hurting the pup, I would separate the pup from the dog. If the older dog is merely giving constructive criticism, I’d be fine with that. If its just an aggressive dog, it would have been removed from my home long ago…

fdsjr · Post by **fdsjr** » Tue Jul 05, 2005 3:12 pm

mountaindogs wrote:In all of these posts, I have not seen enough mention of how the puppy is acting. Is the puppy shy, skittish, bold, pushy. I would take that into consideration. You can't tolerate the aggression from the older dog, but interdog conflicts have two sides to the equation. You can't fix it without considering both sides of the problem. Once you have a good idea what is going on, what sets off the older dog, and how much each dog is crossing the tolerable behavior line, THEN you have some idea where to start. Rarely if ever does it involve training only one of the dogs. Also, in this case, you are part of the equation too. How you act towards each dog in front of the other matters.

Also consider outside socialization of the puppy ASAP. Such as enroll in a "puppy class" so it doesn't develope a fear of other dogs. Make sure your vaccinations are up to date and all first. (and always

The V has been trying to play with the Dal, although the Dal wont let him. The V will run up to the start romping around, run back and forth a little trying to get the Dal to play. The Dal will start to growl a little and glare, then most of the time he will walk away. But the puppy doesnt know better yet and follows him for more. The Dal will continue to growl. At this point we separate the two scold the Dal for growling and remind the V with a convincing, bold tone that, "Enough.........leave him alone, Enough............hes gonna bite you".

When the Dal has a bone, watch out! He will growl at the pup if he gets near. (Not to mention anyone besides My mom, dad, and I, he gets scolded) When he growls we hit the Dal with a rolled up paper, and remove the V from the situation, again reminding him as I said above. We rarely let the Dal have his bone, but when we do, were watching like a hawk.

Sometimes the Dal will be sitting on the couch. Even though he has no bone and there is none in sight, he will growl when the V comes near and show his teeth when the V comes in to investigate the growling. I hit him with the paper and scold him , and then I remove the V and again convince him with that tone.

The scary thing even after 2 minor and 1 major attack, the V hasnt learned to leave him alone when the Dal is growling.

As far as socialization for the pup ive taken him for walks in the neighborhood, he has meet 2 other dogs, both ocassions went nice. Ive had my uncles dog over, a golden retriever. Him and the V love to play and get along very well. In the next couple days he will have the oppritunity to meet 2 new dogs. My neighbors Lab that loves puppies, and my dads friend's new puppy. My dads friends dog is small as heck, they said it will only get like 15 pounds. What do you think about them meeting?? As far as puppy classes, I dont have the money for that right now, although my parents may cough up a little money considering the circumstances. I am going to continue to introduce him to as many healthy dogs as possible. Just to add, he is up on his vaccinations...

Weve since got the Dal new medication for his arthritis (Osteo Bi-Flex) to hopefully help with the pain and maybe he'll be less iratable. Its been 3 days and we havent seen change in his bahavior towards the pup, ill keep you posted.