WHAT HAVE I DONE

[smittysmith777]

I have A 20 month old lhew setter pup turned out great very steady killed over 100 birds over him last season. But he started creeping at the and of the season .Gave him some time off and stated working with him when he would strat to creepI used the collar now he is blinking .Im sick over this had a great dog should of left alone

[Maurice]

That's a shame.. Don't give up though, you might be able to get the dog turned around and back on track.. One of the most important things to remember when using the collar, don't use it if the bird is still on the ground.. It is much safer to allow creeping dogs to put the bird up then make a correction with the collar..

Mo

[kninebirddog]

Did you do anything rpior to the e collar to teach that the collar is a cue for whoa or turn etc or did you just out it on and begin to cue on birds

is it an older collar with higher levels of stimualtion

or what level did you use

what kind of collar collars have different tyoes of stimulation feeling

to me personally the tri tronics feel like a muscle stimulated type feeling where dogtra feels like a burning needle being set against the skin

extra questions to ask your self about your dogs reaction to the collar and the reflect right back on to what Maurice posted

good luck

PS where are you located

[romeo212000]

knine asks some good questions. My dogs know that a single nick from the collar can cue them to woah because I trained her that way. If I see her creep or step I will walk over and set her back and tell her woah and nick her once and then woah again. She gets the clue and I havent had to to use it in a while. But that it because I layed the foundation for it a long time ago.

[smittysmith777]

Thanks guys but I know where I went wong but need some advice fixing it

[romeo212000]

So tell us where you went wrong. You said something about the collar but there are any number of things you could have done with the collar to cause this. You may know exactly what happened but we dont. And if we dont know then we cannot offer advice.

[Rick Hall]

Doesn't take much "reading between the lines" to see that they gave you advice on fixing it: don't make corrections the dog does not understand and do make corrections the dog does understand.

Unless you were ham-handed enough to really fry a dog that associated it with birds, rather than incorrect action, or Pup didn't much care for birds in the first place, he'll soon be trying to work them again and you can take another training tack.

[smittysmith777]

YES in a way I was ham handed that pup is just to timid for the stimulation I gave him but its done now I know what not to do but I need to know how to get him back wher he was . He was great .

[Rick Hall]

I'd follow Romeo's lead and teach him "whoa" and mild correction he associates with that command. (Believe Maurice is a "Westie" "silent trainer" and may offer an other than "whoa" alternative.)

[RayGubernat]

I agree with Rick...if the dog has any amount of desire, it will soon get over the bird avoidance, especially if you work hin into a few planted birds. You just confused him a bit and he doesn't want to mess up so he is getting out of Dodge.

If the dog creeps a bit, go up to him and urge him on...push him right into and through the bird. If he stops and locks up tight, you win. If he busts the bird and then stops, you still win. In either case, THEN, go to the dog, gently pick him up, walk back a few feet and GENTLY put him down, front feet first nd then slowly put down the back half and stroke him up. Make him stand for a good two minutes, walking in to stroke him up about every thirty seconds and then stepping back out away from the dog. Say NOTHING at all, except perhaps one whispered whoa while you are stroking the dog up.

The only effective thing I have found to keep this from happening is to periodically work a dog on remote release traps and pop the birds when the dog gets close...whether it scents the bird or not. If the dog cannot bew sure when the bird is going to bail out on him. he will tend to stop...dead...at first scent.

The dog was creeping... because he could. Liberated birds allow dogs to get too close. They just do. They are a real pain in the butt in that regard. Unfortunately you did not know how to nip it in the bud or correct it, but now you do.

You screwed up...OK...lesson learned. Keep your finger off the button until AFTER the bird hits the air.

You ain't the first and you sure won't be the last. You need to move forward. From now on...let the bird stop the dog. Save the e-collar for when the bird is already in the air.

Take a few days off and then go after it again. I think you and your dog will be just fine.

RayG

[Greg Jennings]

Is the dog creeping or self relocating? Are the birds pen birds or are they wild birds...particularly pheasants?

[smittysmith777]

Greg tyey are pen birds and most of the time he was relocating.but I had him trained to let me tap him on the head to release and in the begining he was prety good

[Brushbustin Sporting Dogs]

You need positive trips out with him kinding birds and not associating birds with discomfort. E collars are a very senstive training tool they can help so much but can also screw things up in a hurry. Get him out if he has to knock and chase some birds to know there save again thats what it might take you need to step back in your training and let him have fun and you just bite your lip for awhile. He has had enough good bird contacts a few bad experiences shouldn't have ruined him. Plant say 6 birds in a field. Take him to each bird if he blinks the first move to the next make sure he's in the scent come. He might blink one two maybe three but hopefully he'll get it that theres no pain and just a bird that he should point. Try it!!!Hopefully this will fix it if not you'll have to try other methods.

Rob

[kninebirddog]

I view the E collar as a tool to cue for commands taught..... Not as a tool to train
unless of course your aversion training that is different
but when a collar is put on it can quickly become a untraining tool when used in the wrong context

what I would do

back up get the dog excited about birds

ersonally I use the Rick Smith based method to teaching dogs commands and will use the e collar like an invisible check cord I start with the command lead I use taps for go and constant for whoa

once the dog is complying there then i move on to the e collar where the same taps for a movement command or a constant for a stand still command is over layed


Then I will over lay in the field

No matter what Method you chose

you need to build up the confidence on the birds again and really reflect on why your dog started to blink

is the blinking it because it was to harsh the stimulation from the collar

was it because if she can't do the birds her way she will avoid them

[Maurice]

Thanks guys but I know where I went wong but need some advice fixing it

A long time ago I was talking with Bill West about different training problems.. I ask him, what do you do if a dog starts blinking.. His answer to me, don't let him blink the bird.. The fix is simple if you catch it early. I will plant a good flying bird and checkcord the dog to it, when the dog tries to blink it stop him easy and hold him there. Have a gunner walk in flush and kill the bird, let the dog go to the dead bird.. If the dog retrieves the bird pet him and put him up for the day, no more work.. Next day do the same set up, kill the bird and put the dog up. Normally after several workouts the dog is back to liking birds.. You will need to revamp your collar training if you want to continue using the ecollar. Best thing I can tell you about using a ecollar for training on birds... Don't use it if the birds are still on the ground. The dog really has not made a mistake until he causes the birds to fly.. This way keeps the corrections black and white to the dogs. Hope this helps.

Mo

[oakcreek]

Throw some pigeons for him, make it fun again, let him creep into birds a little and flush them with a launcher. Then once he is pointing and chasing again, start over with the breaking. Teach him in the yard that a nick around the belly means to stop movement, then introduce some birds to the equation. You haven't ruined your dog (most likely) just took steps backwards.

[gonehuntin']

One of the worst things you can do with an ecollar is to purchase one, then use it incorrectly. It's common for people training pointing dogs to buy a collar and only use it for one thing. That is wrong. A dog should be trained with the collar on every command the dog knows.

In your dog's case, if he had been force fetched, then had that force fetch reinforced with the ecollar, it wouldn't matter where the dog was, or what the birds were doing when you stimulated him. If I were you, I'd step back, start over and totally train the dog with the collar including force. If you force the dog with the collar, in this instance, he will stop blinking birds. Probably.

You can also try the other methods given you by K-9 and Mo. It's just that if it were me, I'd want to correct the problem and make sure it didn't occur again by correctly training the pooch in the first place.

[Greg Jennings]

Greg tyey are pen birds and most of the time he was relocating.but I had him trained to let me tap him on the head to release and in the begining he was prety good

Thanks. I asked because, in my limited experience, a dog will creep on a pen bird because they think they can catch it. They seldom do it on wild birds, but they will relocate when the birds run...especially pheasant who must have been outcrossed to an antelope at some point in their history.

Sounds like your dog anticipated being relocated, got zapped for self-relocating and has it in the back of his mind that that bird might have done the zapping.

In that context what everyone has said makes total sense to my pea brain.

[smittysmith777]

THANKS men for the help. I think am gonna take oak creeks avice and see where that goes

[Brushbustin Sporting Dogs]

THANKS men for the help. I think am gonna take oak creeks avice and see where that goes

You'll be on Arlette's s*it list if you don't say and ladies...

Rob

[kninebirddog]

that is Ok rob Trust me when I say I have been called worse

[romeo212000]

I don't bow to the politically correct feminazi B.S. Guys is a generic term excompassing everybody.

[gar-dog]

I don't bow to the politically correct feminazi B.S. Guys is a generic term excompassing everybody.

I think most would agree with that. But "men" is not a generic term encompassing everybody.

[romeo212000]

In which case if there were a major issue that someone took with this they would need to get their chip off their shoulder. Not saying anyone is but if they did, they need to get over themselves.

[wems2371]

Good gravy. Nobody has a chip :roll: , "Thanks men" is what it is..........not a generic term encompassing both sexes. No big deal, don't think anyone cared. Pretty sure that quite a few of this postings viewers were women and skipped right over it. Heck I even skipped over your political femiwhatever comment. Water off a ducks back. I think Brushbustin was just trying to inject a little humor and maybe give credit where credit was due to Arlette. From what I see, you're the only one getting p.o.'d about it. Denise

[romeo212000]

Good gravy. Nobody has a chip :roll: , "Thanks men" is what it is..........not a generic term encompassing both sexes. No big deal, don't think anyone cared. Pretty sure that quite a few of this postings viewers were women and skipped right over it. Heck I even skipped over your political femiwhatever comment. Water off a ducks back. I think Brushbustin was just trying to inject a little humor and maybe give credit where credit was due to Arlette. From what I see, you're the only one getting p.o.'d about it. Denise

Go back and read my post. I said I am not saying anyone has got a chip on their shoulder, just that they shouldnt if they do. I'm not getting po'd about this. My first post was interjected with some sarcasm and humor, and just a little truth too, but more humor than anything. :roll:. Fact is when he said "thanks men" he was referring to all who posted in here. No one probably took offense to it and thats fine. I have seen too many others get all up in a tight over something so ridiculous, but like I said I was not p.o'ed about it. Just making a humorous tounge in cheek statement.

[smittysmith777]

Sorry ladies did not mean to ofend anyone. I will be more carefull next time.

[snips]

Maurice nailed it.