Older Pup help

[cpepin]

Hello,
I have stumbled upon this site in my quest to find help bird training my GSP Daisy. I've read back through older posts trying to educate myself so I'm not asking the same questions you all have probobly replied to many times....

When my wife and I built our house back in the summer of 2005 I finaly got to get a hunting dog of my own. The first month after we moved our stuff into our home I found an AKC GSP breeder here in NH with some great looking dogs. I found the breeder with raving reviews from owners of his dogs, all of them hunted the dogs. As a new dog owner I did all the reading on what I should be doing with the dog, from what I understood, the basics of teaching the basic commands was the most important factor in having a sucessful trained bird dog. I picked up Daisy right after Hunting Season in 2005, she was able to come home to us in November when we were going into Deer season. I walked that dog through the woods every day as a puppy, and to this day she and I spend a lot of time out in the woods. She spent the first year of her life enjoying being a puppy growing up playing with her tennis ball and my young son while she learned basic commands, Come, Sit, Heel, and stay...

Daisy was a year old when she headed into the woods of Northern NH with me and my shotgun looking for some Grouse. I was a proud dad to have my bird dog with me, heck, I was one of those guys I had always seen all those years hunting with a dog. It looked like it wasnt even fair to those birds they hunted. I ended up kicking birds up the same way I had for all those years before, I wasnt worried because I was assured that Daisy would come into her own when she was ready, and I wasnt worried because she had her nose to the ground all day and wasnt afraid of the sound of a gun over her head. She just jumped over the birds so she wouldnt trip on them.....

Year two came last year, excitement was in the air! I was not only going to hunt my dog up north but I was going to hunt the stocked birds at our phesant drop and shoot locations here in the southern part of the state. It was cleanup time! It was a disheartining opening day when the old buck came through the same patch I had just worked with Daisy and shot 3 birds with his lab... I shrugged the season off, continued to hunt the way I always had. All the time just enjoying the time I got to spend with my dog regardless of her bird skills.

Dont get me wrong, I believe at this point that I am to blame. I listened to all these old timers that kept telling me that my dog was going to roll out of bed one day and start hunting like a pro. I'm here to tell you that the only thing this bird dog hunts is a tennis ball. She is on point if she's not running after it or has it in her mouth coming back with it. When you sit on the couch at night the dog drops the ball in your lap and will stand there for an hour pointing at it. Like a rock on point. I put a picture as an avitar to show all of you how pretty she is on point... at a ball. (she dropped it in the pond while I was fishing, she won't swim so she stood on the stump and pointed untill I couldnt take it any more and went and got it) This dog will chase a ball for hours, you can toss it in the woods as far as you can imagine, the dog will find it with that nose and bring it back every time. She is the best ball dog in the world!

I would love to see this same interest in birds. The saving grace is if she sees a bunch of Turkeys while we are in the truck she has pointed this summer while starting to whine in anticipation to go get them.... She listens very well, she has a TON of energy, she has the tools, I need to focus them. I think the answer is having birds, launching birds, or wrapping her tennis ball with a bird.... I would love to hear what you guys have for suggestions to how I can get my now 3 year old pup to turn from ball to bird dog.

[Ruffshooter]

Am I right in that your dog did not have any birds for the first year of its life?
This can be fixed I think, (Not actually seeing your dog in action.)
Buy some birds.
Do take your pup to hunt preserves.
Enter some Junior Hunt Test, just to get bird exposure. he may not pass but that is not important now. Hopkinton NH has hunt test with different AKC clubs this fall.
Set your dog up to find the birds, ie. bring dog in cross wind and or down wind.
Do take your pup grouse and woodcock hunting. Head to Gorham NH. Head into Rangley Maine. Even before the season starts.
ride some of the logging roads, find a road bird put the leash on your dog walk him to where the bird went in to the woods from the road. Let your dog smell the ground when he starts heading into the woods let him go. Keep doing this. If you get a chance to shoot a bird do it. let your dog know you want these birds. Don't get frustrated. Just keep giving your dog opportunity to be a bird dog.

If you wish to head to Maine one week end you are welcome to join me and we can put some birds down.

Who is the breeder. Have you talked to them to get some help? Have you looked into joining a NAVHDA club. Merrimack has one.

[cpepin]

You are correct, She hasent had a lot of contact other than the ocasional bird in the back yard.

Knowing when and where the AKC events is exactly what I would love to know. I have been looking for trainers, organizations, or events in the area but I have been unsuccesful to this point finding them. Or even someone to talk to about training her properly. Like I said all I've had to help to this point have been guys who have some of that idea that bird dogs just do what they are supposed to do sooner or later. With Oct 1 coming up its been on my mind a lot more lately.

We hunt Pittsburg, right over the border from Rangely. Always been a lot of fun, when I shoot a bird, I always try to let her in on the scent and try and get her excited but she doesnt seem to understand. (she does get excited and starts biting the feathers) Tried the same thing with some phesant we kicked up last season. The guy I spoke about in the other post who got some birds where I just worked said to give her the heart right away, he said it would get her interest. Kind of like a treat for doing well.... I like the idea of finding road grouse, I wonder how the dog knows to follow that scent or what peaks its interest?

The breeder gave me a few vidios when I bought her. The breeder was Big Bucks in Tamworth NH. He gave me some pointers, then I just started listening to the wrong reasoning i believe. If she never hunts I'm ok, she is a great family dog, she has a great temperment, and I love having her with me when I hunt. It just seemss like such a waist, I love to bird hunt, it would be great if she did that job with her ball enthusiasm.

I would be very interested in hunting, Its what I like to do. I'll check into the NAVHDA, I need to help this little girl do what she was born to do. Hopefully at 3 its not too late.

[Kiki's Mom]

Oh she may just hunt yet From what I can gather she has no earthly idea what game birds are and that she is going to be allowed to do anything with them. Granted, have never met your dog or seen her in action but the fact that you report her interest in the turkeys is encouraging.

Is there a regional GSP club in your state/area? I know that there is a pro Brittany trainer who summer camps in Maine ( Ben Lorenson) and there are few cover trial folks up your way .....start with the GSPCA ( German Shorthair Club of America) website and work your way through the regional club listings til you find some like minded folks that are relatively close to you and attend any training days you can. NSTRA, NAVDHA chapters are all good resources as well

Short of that find yourself a reputable pro trainer and invest the time and money for an honest evaluation and perhaps a bit of intro training for her.....it may just be the best money you ever spent to get your dream of your dog as your hunting partner to come to fruition

[cpepin]

Thank you Kiki's mom for the responce.

I looked into the NAVDHA sites last night, Thank you Ruffshooter for pointing me in that direction. I appears that the events have already passed except for one 400 bird shoot in November. Its expensive but may be worth it if there is a concentrated group of birds in the area to get her excited.

I dont know of any GSP regional group in the area, but I will look into the GSPCA to find out if I can find one. See what I can find out.

Are there any profesional trainers on here that do the eval or training things you are talking about. I am willing to travel to ME, VT, or MA to do this for her. Ruffshooter, is this something you do?

[MTO4Life]

Short of that find yourself a reputable pro trainer and invest the time and money for an honest evaluation and perhaps a bit of intro training for her.....it may just be the best money you ever spent to get your dream of your dog as your hunting partner to come to fruition

What KiKi's mom said is true. I sent my dog to a trainer this summer (granted she was just over 1 year old) and they have worked wonders with my pup... she's a bird finding machine now. A pro trainer will have the time to put your dog over birds far more than you could (assuming you have to work full time, possibly shift work which was my problem). It could be the best money you spend to get that dog on track for birds. For what it's worth...

[cpepin]

I sent a letter to the Merrimack chapter of the NAVHDA to see if they knew of any trainers or had suggestions. Like I said before, it looks like they have wrapped up the season...Hopefully they reply, It would be great to find some help.

NRSTA doesnt look like they have much activity here in the Northeast.... Neither does the GSPCA... oh well. Thank you for the suggestions.

[cpepin]

I wanted to thank everyone for the help on this. you have all been great in helping me find direction.

I sent a letter to the NAVHDA, the president sent me a letter back with a contact for a trainer in the town next to mine. I set up an appointment for next week. We are going to do an eval and see what Daisy does with birds.

Ruffshooter, thanks for your time on the phone, It was nice to meet someone like yourself who cares to take the time to help another hunter learn something new. I look forward to meeting you for a hunt.

[brotherbill3]

cpepin

Please keep the board posted on your progress.
I'd love to hear how it goes with an older dog; what works? what didn't? etc. ... that's a big part of the reason I joined this forum.

I'm in a similar situation with my Golden Retreiver. He's 4. When we got him he was just a 'house puppy' to fill the void of an older house dog that had recently passed (Actually he was a gft for my wife from our daughter, but he's all mine now. Especially since she has her Shi Tzu). He had general obedience classes and does very well with most of it. But I didn't 're-start' hunting until he was almost 2 yrs old. I don't have a ton of time to train him myself; and definitely don't have the money for it (or the desire to send him off) to a professional ... and I don't know anyone else in the area that hunts w/ dogs, so I am doing what I can ... reading, trying, etc. I figure, if I get him to hunt at all ... the next dog (sadly they don't live forever, except in our hearts) ... will definitely be a better hunter ... (and If he doesn't become a hunter, I can will still enjoy time spent with him in the fields anyway.)

Good Luck

[Trekmoor]

I am not at all sure how much, if any, this post might help. It's always difficult to supply remedies without seeing the patient.
I think if a dog like that came into a little training class I help run I'd start with what the dog does like to find - the tennis ball. Would it not be possible to attach feathers to the ball and get her finding and retrieving that then build on that little advance by having her retrieve more and more feather and less and less ball ? The feathers could be taken from a fresh killed bird and hopefully the dog would become just as interested in their scent as it is at present in the tennis ball.

Just a thought .

Bill T.

[cpepin]

Brotherbill,
Will do. I was going to post once Daisy had her outing next week to let those who have helped know what happened. Then I'm sure I will have lots of questions if she takes to birds. I like how you say you will still enjoy your time with your boy regardless... Its exactly how I feel about my little girl.

Bill T.,
Idea had crossed my mind a few times. I had actualy dropped some bird scent on the balls before....

Our appointment is opening day next week, hopefully if she gets the fever we can keep on rolling out in the phesant drop sites....

[cpepin]

Update:
Daisy went to the trainer tonight for her assesment. We headed out to his patch of woods where he plants the birds once I got to his place. We walked out, he stopped a few times to watch Daisy do her thing, he mentioned that she may find a woodcock or two... He stated that she did a good job keeping a good range, and she listened well. (phew!!!, what an embarasment that would have been if she didnt) He took his time to explain what he was doing and why, it was good to walk with him and learn a thing or two. Things like working the dog against the wind and why....

We walked for a while, then he placed the first bird (Quail). Daisy came around working the area, and imediatly started working that scent. I was amazed... almost to the point of a tear watching her follow the trail where I had just seen the Quail run. It was the first time I can actualy confirm she was doing what she was born to do! I was a proud dad for sure. She ended up finding the bird about ten feet from where it was placed. The trainer let her bat the bird around for a bit and have some fun with it. The trainer cornered the bird after a minute and placed it back in his sack. Daisy was all kinds of excited! The trainer made the comment she had a good nose. I was like a kid in a candy store.

He put the check chord on her, and placed another bird and worked her downwind of the scent, she immediatly found that bird and locked up on point. she started creeping up on the bird so he gave her the whoa command to let her know that she needed to point, not chase. We did this a few more times with different "birdy" locations and I was pumped to see her do so well! We always walked away from the bird after the initail point and whoa, I forgot to ask why after we got back to his place but I now assume he didnt want to reward the creeping by letting her continue to find it or show her once she creeped it was over and we needed to find more.

The assesment went well I thought, the trainer told me she was a good dog and that she would hunt well. He said she just needs to continue to find and get bird exposure. He showed me some training techniques on the table to enforce the whoa command. He let me know that if she finds a bird that I shouldnt shoot it if she flushes the bird. That will teach her its ok to flush. We talked for a bit after, I decided to take her to him for a few more weeks to continue putting her on birds and learning as much as I did tonight. It was a good night and now I am excited to see her doing what I thought she could do!!!!

[MillerClemsonHD]

Congrats that is wonderful to hear. It is a wonderful thing to watch when these pups start doing what they have been bred to do. Sure makes for a proud papa too. Especially when the pup can hunt that hard and you can come home and they are playing or napping with the family.

[RayGubernat]

cpepin -

I think you are wise going to a trainer for the evaluation and going back for some "train the trainer" work. Nothing is better than someone showing you how to do some of this stuff.

As far as your dog is concerned, you are also correct in assessing your Daisy as a PUPPY. She might be three years old, but as far as a hunting dog prospect is concerned, she is indeed a pup and needs to be treated like one.

I would go through some yardwork, heel/whoa drills(my first yard drill choice ), barrel, bench(my second drill, done after the heel/whoa is established and then done in addition to heel/whoa) or whoa post drills.

Now that you know your dog has the desire, I would spend the time developing the dog's abilities and talents. Without the desire, you would be, in all likelihood, wasting your time and effort. However, since the dog has the desire, I see no reason why Daisy can't be brought along to become a good bird dog. She just got a little bit of a late start.


Just like a puppy, just because she does it right once, don't assume she "got it." Repetiton is the key. As an older dog with some obedience training she might very well come along quicker than a puppy, but please don't skip any steps and don't rush it. Repetitions, repetitions, repetitions.

Patience, persistence, a gentle but firm hand and a well developed sense of humor.

RayG

[The Zephyr]

Cpepin,

The Katahdin GSP Club of Greater Portland just held an AKC hunt test last weekend at the Sharpe's Farm HELDCA Area, Routes 202 & 9, Hopkinton, NH. It appears to be near your location. I'm not sure of the events this club holds but it might be worth checking.
The nearest field trial venue for shorthairs is the Flaherty grounds in East Windsor CT. Nutmeg GSPC will be holding a field trial Nov. 7-9. If you're free try and make it down for the weekend.

John L.