To hold or not to hold

[Ditch__Parrot]

My question is this. At begining FF training why teach hold ? Not the hold itself I understand that, but why the extra command ? Why not just command fetch to hold the dumbell ?

[crackerd]

The short answer is "hold" can be imparted far in advance of force-fetch pressure. Just by dint of having something in its mouth

a pup's inherently got "hold" down. Your job is getting the pup to understand what the word means, which is pretty elementary--since they're doing something that comes natural to them, the association is easy to make. Then you can count FF going a whole lot easier--on both the pup, and on you.

MG

[Ruffshooter]

You will get two or more points of view on this.. I personally don't use the hold command. I see no inherant advantage to doing so, at least with pointing dogs. When teaching the ff I just use the fetch for hold. The whole process is the process of fetch. (Releasing to retrieve, searching for the object, Picking up the object, bringing the object,) Once your dog is fetching it is holding. If the dog drops the item you put the object back in their mouth and command fetch or they pick it up with the fetch command. Most often the hold command is dropped from the process unless the dog drops the object. The fetch command works here as well. IMHO Fetch works for me. Eventually I move to the dogs name.


The best way is follow what ever your trainer, book, DVD or video tells you. Then you have reference for corrections.

[crackerd]

IMHO Fetch works for me. Eventually I move to the dogs name.

There's no right or wrong way to teach retrieving, just easier and more difficult ways. The comment above implies one of two things: The pup learns "fetch!" as a command to retrieve from the start (say at eight weeks old) or else the pup doesn't get marks (retrieves) til after it's been force-fetched.

The dog's name is what you start out with when sending it for a retrieve--whether the pup's chasing a squeaky toy or a tossed Milkbone, whether it's going down a hallway or 250 yards. If you're using "Fetch!" from the outset, it gets turned into a word that will have little impact in helping the dog to get through the pressure of force fetch. If you're not giving a pup marks until after it's been force-fetched...well, that's your choice.

The Brits do not force fetch any dogs--pointers, versatiles, spaniels or retrievers. But they teach the conditioned "Hold" to all of them except pointing dogs whose trials don't require a retrieve (just as in this country). Pointing dog owners that only want a retrieve can get by with "Fetch!" because it's synonymous with "Retrieve!" But "hold" to reiterate is a good command for a pup (and I stress pup) to grasp well in advance of being force-fetched.

In fact, you can make it a whole lot easier on yourself and the pup by inculcating things to it when their learning curve is a mile wide--going for marks at any distance, holding as it returns to you with a bird bumper or play-toy, taking it from them with "Out!" or "Drop" when their bite is soft enough to yield right away.

Evan Graham of Smart-Whatever retrieving fame (and of this board) posted a group photo the other day from a clinic he gave to a NAVHDA chapter in Wisconsin--I couldn't help thinking, "Ah, the light's gone on" (not to dare imply that it's illuminating the Dark Ages of training pointing and flushing dogs to retrieve ).

MG

[Ruffshooter]

To Cracked:
The pups hear the word fetch each and every time they run for a toy I toss or during training when birds are shot and they run out for the retrieve and I have them on a check cord to guide them back. The shot birds are marks. Once through the steadiness and first year of hunting, then I ff them. Formally from the table to the ground to double marks and simple blinds. I duck hunt my dogs also. (GSP and Brittanies). I do not use hold simply because I do not need it. When a dog fetches it must not drop the object. Fetch is from the time the dog is commanded leave my side to when it gets back and I give the dog the drop command.
It might make sense for you to figure out how I get through the ff if you actually saw how I get there.
Hold is mearly a word. Dogs do not have a human vocabulary until you teach them. If you wish to use poop for your hold and or retrieving command it will work.
I use their name because I hunt or trial with more than one dog. Incredibly my dogs understand what is going on and is expected of them.

[Don]

To Cracked:
The pups hear the word fetch each and every time they run for a toy I toss or during training when birds are shot and they run out for the retrieve and I have them on a check cord to guide them back. The shot birds are marks. Once through the steadiness and first year of hunting, then I ff them. Formally from the table to the ground to double marks and simple blinds. I duck hunt my dogs also. (GSP and Brittanies). I do not use hold simply because I do not need it. When a dog fetches it must not drop the object. Fetch is from the time the dog is commanded leave my side to when it gets back and I give the dog the drop command.
It might make sense for you to figure out how I get through the ff if you actually saw how I get there.
Hold is mearly a word. Dogs do not have a human vocabulary until you teach them. If you wish to use poop for your hold and or retrieving command it will work.
I use their name because I hunt or trial with more than one dog. Incredibly my dogs understand what is going on and is expected of them.

I'm on this side. I can't figure out for the life of me the advantage of the hold command. First the dog is taught to hold, take something in its mouth and hold it till it's given a command to give it up. Then its taught fetch, take something in its mouth and hold it till it's given a command to give it up. If the dog starts to spit, either command will work if thats what the dog was taught. If the dog is on the way back and starts to spit, give the hold command. But if your to late, now you have to give the fetch command, which means (see above)!

[bobman]

In my mind hold means just that hold without any chewing or mouthing, fetch means motion move to the bird or come to me with it.

Obviously, Dogs can be trained the same thing with several methods, prior to the internet none of us knew what the other guy was doing

the dogs still got trained

I use hold to keep dogs jaws quiet from chewing birds, but but I dont FF my dogs just hold and give

[wems2371]

In my mind hold means just that hold without any chewing or mouthing, fetch means motion move to the bird or come to me with it.

Obviously, Dogs can be trained the same thing with several methods, prior to the internet none of us knew what the other guy was doing

the dogs still got trained

I use hold to keep dogs jaws quiet from chewing birds, but but I dont FF my dogs just hold and give

Agreed. Okay, I'm on my first dog, so I don't really have a lot of sage knowledge here. I am also not FFing my dog, but I use Fetch, Hold (if necessary), and Give. When I say Hold if necessary, I mean that my dog likes to fiddlefart with held items. So I did extensive time on the table working on the hold, which for me meant using the command, tapping the bottom jaw, etc. I have her heeling and retrieving with live birds, shot birds, and dummies.......and give the Hold command if I see excessive movement on her part. Just the way it worked out for me. To each their own. Denise

[gonehuntin']

Hold, Fetch, and Drop are three different and distinct commands. Each means a different thing and each has a different purpose.

HOLD controls movement of the jaws. HOLD means don't move your jaws and keep your nose pointed up.

FETCH is a driving command and demands motion. I drives the dog toward an object and commands the dog to pick up that object, then to HOLD that object in a stationary manor in the mouth.

DROP demands that the dog open his mouth and back the head away from the trainer when the object is grasped and the command issued.

Each command can be used to correct a different problem.

[strutrut247]

for those who don't use hold, which command do you use when your dog begins rolling a bumper while ff. I pop under the chin and NO, HOLD! I don't know how you could correct mouthing without the use of the command hold.

[Ruffshooter]

I just say ah ah fetch and the little pop under the chin or a little up ward pressure under the chin. I see the fetch command as the whole process. In order for the dog to fetch it must take the bumper wether you put the buck in or the dog goes out to take the buck to running back and the dog drops or spits out the buck or bumper you say fetch. It may not be how many see it or do it but I do this way and it works. The dogs have had no confusion. Only me.

[strutrut247]

I just think that doing it without hold confusses the dog. I see fetch as the command to pick up the object. I also go past the normal FF and go on with FTP because i train labs. If it works for you thats fine but i think its not right

[Don]

I just think that doing it without hold confusses the dog. I see fetch as the command to pick up the object. I also go past the normal FF and go on with FTP because i train labs. If it works for you thats fine but i think its not right

I'm not sure how it would confuse the dog? I've never seen a dog that knew what hold, fetch, here, sit,ect,ect,ect, ment until it was taught.

[strutrut247]

I just think that doing it without hold confusses the dog. I see fetch as the command to pick up the object. I also go past the normal FF and go on with FTP because i train labs. If it works for you thats fine but i think its not right

I'm not sure how it would confuse the dog? I've never seen a dog that knew what hold, fetch, here, sit,ect,ect,ect, ment until it was taught.

because think about it from a dogs prospective. pressure is put on the dog by the command fetch. The dog is doing what its been taught to relieve the pressure (picking up the desired object). But whenever the object is in his mouth he hears the fetch command agian even though hes completed the desired act.

[gonehuntin']

There's one fly in the ointment here: MOST POINTING DOG TRAINERS DON'T FF A DOG NEARLY AS THOROUGHLY AS RETRIEVER TRAINERS DO.

So, if you have a dog coming in to you, mouthing a bird, and command fetch to a well force broken dog, he would get confused, stop, and look for something else to pick up. He allready has something in his mouth, and now you've confused him. The only time you give the command "fetch" to a trained dog, is to tell him to pick up a bird. It has nothing to dog with movement of the jaws, and everything to do with movement of the dog.

That's the problem with not teaching hold. You don't have a way of stopping jaw movement without contradicting the "fetch'' command the dog has been taught. Fetch is one of the most powerful commands the dog will ever be taught and should not be diluted with the mixing of "hold" with it.

[Don]

Pointing dogs are smarter than retrievers. They understand that when they fetch an object they are to hold it in their mouth properly and finish the retrieve before starting the next retrieve. I used to tell Otis fecth for each bird that was down when I sent him for the first bird. That way with three birds on the ground he knew he had three to do and I didn't have to say anything else while he did his job!

[wems2371]

Again, I'll claim to be as green as grass here, but did have to do a lot of "hold" work (all last winter) with my loose mouthed pup and she's coming along like a champ. It's quite possible I'm the only one that gives commands like this, but I'll go out on a limb.

When I command Fetch, I use an authoratative, booming, voice edged with enthusiasm.
When I command Hold for the jaw movement, I use an authoratative, low-tone voice--sort as if you would be saying No with that hint of scolding
There are definitely two different tones to my voice of you go girl and get that object as fast as you can and one of knock it off knothead.

Using my "authoratative, booming, voice edged with enthusiasm" to stop jaw movement would be counterproductive, and using the "authoratative, low-tone no voice" to inspire movement to fetch would be equally confusing. One vocal tone says go forth and one says stop. Maybe those of you using Fetch only don't change your voice inflection......

From the standpoint of someone that had a problem to fix, gonehuntin makes perfect sense to me. Again, it's totally possible that this newbie has her head in a hole.......and it wouldn't be the first time. Denise

[Ruffshooter]

I have never trained a trial lab only a couple hunters at that, simple hand signals and simple blinds for friends.You all are proffessionals and I am not, I will change if needed but to this date I have not had to. Granted I have only ff a small number of (14) dogs. My biggest problem in ff had been calm assertive patience which has gotten better.

I admire what you do and am not saying that the hold command is wrong no trying to convince any readers it is wrong. (FOLLOW A PROFFESSIONAL SYSTEM) This is all about what I do and why I believe it works.I know I will get blasted so have at it.

Well, although I have a great deal of respect for you fellas. If I were having problems with this I would not do it.Probally on my two pup brit I will have problems and may have to eat my words.
They do not look for something else to retrieve they understand the whole process they understand the intent, they understand that the retrieve fetch is from A to Z.I do send the dog for the next retreive if some how I manage to hit more than one bird with a hard fetch or back if there was no mark on the downed bird. I do hand simple hand signals with my dogs for retrieves. If the dog drops the buck on the ground while coming back do you not give the fetch command? Does the dog pick up the bumper? If he picked up the bumper did he not hold the bumper? Did you say hold hold hold hold hold hold until he got back? In order for a dog to hold it must fetch. Fetch is to take possesion of an object to go get the object. The fetch is the whole process the dog must hold in order to complete the retrieve. Do you not eventually drop your hold command and just use it as a correction command? I am sorry, but dogs have a limited vocabulary and it is actually the intent of our action that resinates the most by our actions. ie. putting the bumper back in the mouth the pinch of an ear the e collar etc. Otherwise, how does the Delmar Smith Silent command system work? You don't have to say whoa for a dog to stay still or steady. The pressure under the chin or the bump under the chin is a command to hold &or shows the dog the intent. When you do hand signals do you say left or right with the proper hand signal? Or do you say over and animate the inital hand signal and body movement?

Not trying to diminish any of your method only trying to explain why I believe what I do works. We get hung up on words when in all reality words are not needed. Words are for us, It helps us understand what we want and if it helps us under stand then it removes our confusion, which helps remove our dogs confusion. IMHO. Please don't hurt my feelings I am wicked sensitive

FOR THE ORIGINAL POSTER FOLLOW A PROFFESIONALS METHOD OR DVD OR BETTER YET GO TO A TRAINER.

[gonehuntin']

There are few absolutes in dog training. If it works for you, use it. You will have to believe me though when I say, that there are very good reasons for professional trainers doing what they do and that these programs have been developed over a very long period of time.

[Ditch__Parrot]

Thank you to all that responded

Obviously, Dogs can be trained the same thing with several methods, prior to the internet none of us knew what the other guy was doing

Yes ,but, I think it is very nice to have a forum like this where we can share different methods and the problems and/or successes that we've had with them. So far I think that there is no one size fits all method for any kind of training with dogs. It seems whatever method you use it needs to be taylored for the individual dog you are working with. BUT I'm reserving the rite to change my mind. (lol) I just might on FF.
.

FOR THE ORIGINAL POSTER FOLLOW A PROFFESIONALS METHOD OR DVD OR BETTER YET GO TO A TRAINER.

Ohh What fun would that be? just kidding. I've been looking around and I think I've decided to order the "Smart Fetch" book and DVD. I'm won't start doing any real FF with her untill spring/late winter. But have started working with "HOLD"

To let you all know it's not for a pup. She is four. She has always been a real natural retriver and until recently I didn't feel any training in that area was necessary. She has turned hard mouthed (only on pheasant), and has decided sometimes she doesn't feal like bringing me the bird.(especialy if there is more than 1 down)

At the time that I floated the original question. I had been working on "hold" but using the fetch command. I believe it was Jon Hann who told me in a conversation once to always keep it simple. It was great advice and has worked well for me but I think on this one for this dog I took it too far. She has always been a fast learner but I was having alot of trouble with her dropping the buck. After considering other viewpoints I went back to my hand in her mouth and commanding "HOLD". It has only been a couple of days and we are back up to the buck and she is doing great.

Alot of good points have been made. To me I didn't understand why keeping it simple and all inclusive wouldn't work. But it didn't. I kept thinking maybe she was just being stubborn about it but one look at her face and I could see the confusion. So one more command to the vocab it is.

Thank you again to all that participated in this discussion

[Vandal03]

Keeping on the hold thing, is there a difference between the hold training that you guys who just use "fetch" are doing versus the hold training that you guys who use "hold" too? And how do you control the jaws in "hold"? I understand keeping a dog from dropping the buck, but what about the other end of the spectrum, the dog who is chomping while holding something?

I'm in the camp that uses fetch to mean everything - go get something and bring it all the way back to me. Fetch encompasses fetch, hold, and come all in one. I've only ff'd one dog and when he chomps, I nick him and tell him fetch. Seems to work alright so far. But I would also agree with the previous statement that ff probably has a whole different meaning for the retriever guys than the pointer guys.