New GSP questions

[Addict]

Hi all I just found this site and decided to ask a few questions.

I have a 9 week old male GSP that I got from Tom Kosmack at TAK about a week ago. I can't say enough good things about Tom or his dogs.

I have begun working the pup on learning his name and a few other things. I tell him kennel everytime I crate him. I am going to wait on here until he knows his name. He already loves to retrieve but I limit it to a few times and stop. I am also taking daily walks through fields and the foothills around my home. Is there anything else that I should be working on at this point?

When can I introduce him to pigeons? I found a few wild ones that I can catch in my grandmother's barn.

Also who has the better pinch collar? Bill West or Dave Walker? I am going to order a training tape soon but still am not sure which of the two trainers mentioned above I will go with.

I've been a lab man for 13 years so I am new to pointing dogs. Any help would be great.

Thanks,
Addict

[pear]

...............LOL I'd have never told all that info. No just kidding TAK is a great guy and you can to the right place. People here can fix all the bad things TAK might have done. Sorry Tom I could help myself............."pear"

[grant]

I can't say enough good things about Tom or his dogs.

There’s the first problem. “good things”, “tom”, and “his dogs” all in the same sentence. =)

Welcome aboard!

Like pear, sorry Tom =)
:munky2:

[Greg Jennings]

Hi all I just found this site and decided to ask a few questions.

I have a 9 week old male GSP that I got from Tom Kosmack at TAK about a week ago. I can't say enough good things about Tom or his dogs.

I have begun working the pup on learning his name and a few other things. I tell him kennel everytime I crate him. I am going to wait on here until he knows his name. He already loves to retrieve but I limit it to a few times and stop. I am also taking daily walks through fields and the foothills around my home. Is there anything else that I should be working on at this point?

When can I introduce him to pigeons? I found a few wild ones that I can catch in my grandmother's barn.

Also who has the better pinch collar? Bill West or Dave Walker? I am going to order a training tape soon but still am not sure which of the two trainers mentioned above I will go with.

I've been a lab man for 13 years so I am new to pointing dogs. Any help would be great.

Thanks,
Addict

Hi and welcome to GunDogForum!

The first thing that I would recommend is to keep doing what you're doing with the walks. Just make sure that you do not overdo it. Your pup is 9 weeks old and will tire quickly. You want to leave him wanting more after every walk. Watch his tail and other body language. If you see him start to get tired, you have over-done it. Remember, leave him wanting more.

I would limit his walks to mowed fields or some other terrain that isn't too hard for him. You want it to be BIG fun.


The second thing I would do is talk to TAK and get him to help you get this pup imprinted on birds. There are various ways to do it and TAK will know his dogs and the area better than I could tell you. An example of how we handle it back in the Southeast is to let the litter of pups maul a couple of really weak bobwhite. When the dogs do it as a group, we'd then let them chase around some clipped wing quail. At the point that they finally could run the birds down, there would be no more of that!

My third bit of advice is to forget about pinch collars, etc. till TAK tells you the dog is ready for formal training. Let his experience in reading dogs' progress do the hardest work for you.

Fourth: coming back to pointing dogs after 14 years with retrievers in hunt and obedience tests, my advice to you is to talk to lots of successful trainers and get a handle on the degree of independence needed by the particular job that you want to do with your pup.

I found that I had to make a pretty serious mind-shift. I didn't get it right with my first dog and hopefully am doing a better job with the second.

Best regards,

[12 Volt Man]

Welcome to the forum. I saw that litter of pups that your dog came from. It was sure a good lookin' bunch.

For now do what the others have said. Take the pup places with you. Have fun for a few months.

In late August we are having a NSTRA trial out near Tom's place. It might be good for you to come out an meet some of the Utah bird dog folks.

[Ryan]

You can get him on bird scent too. Get a pheasant, quail, or whatever u plan to wing and let him maul it. THen take a second one and put it on a fishing pole. After a few min of mauling to first wing take it away and let him point the wing on the pol. DO no let him catch this one.

[Addict]

Hi and welcome to GunDogForum!

The first thing that I would recommend is to keep doing what you're doing with the walks. Just make sure that you do not overdo it. Your pup is 9 weeks old and will tire quickly. You want to leave him wanting more after every walk. Watch his tail and other body language. If you see him start to get tired, you have over-done it. Remember, leave him wanting more.

I would limit his walks to mowed fields or some other terrain that isn't too hard for him. You want it to be BIG fun.

Greg,

Thanks for the welcoming. The walks I'm taking him on are about 15 minutes long. I have been going to a large walking trail that runs along the foothills. This is a gravel trail that is surrounded by sage brush and other weeds. I haven't been pushing him to go in the deep stuff but letting him go off the trail on his own. He hasn't shown any fear yet and has chased a few bugs, attacked various plants, and discovered a taste for horse turds. When I take him to a small pond near the trail for a drink he dives right in by himself and swims for a bit. He usually jumps in twice.

Fourth: coming back to pointing dogs after 14 years with retrievers in hunt and obedience tests, my advice to you is to talk to lots of successful trainers and get a handle on the degree of independence needed by the particular job that you want to do with your pup.

I found that I had to make a pretty serious mind-shift. I didn't get it right with my first dog and hopefully am doing a better job with the second.

What do you mean by "the degree of independence needed by the particular job that you want to do with your pup"? Are you talking about how far to let him hunt in front of me? I am a foot hunter but want to get some horses down the road (5-10 yrs).

I found that I had to make a pretty serious mind-shift. I didn't get it right with my first dog and hopefully am doing a better job with the second.

I have to agree with you on that because I am having to change my views as well. That's why I'm asking for help and trying to learn from other people's experience.

Addict

[Addict]

12 volt man wrote

Welcome to the forum. I saw that litter of pups that your dog came from. It was sure a good lookin' bunch.

Thanks 12 volt man for the welcoming. I have to agree that they are good looking dogs.

In late August we are having a NSTRA trial out near Tom's place. It might be good for you to come out an meet some of the Utah bird dog folks.

That would be great to get out there and see how the trials are run. I am also anxious to meet other people that live here and make some new friends. I am hoping to find some trainers willing to help me in this great new adventure. TAK is about 5 hrs away from me so I won't be able to make it out there as often as I could meet up with someone locally.

Addict

[Addict]

Ryan wrote

You can get him on bird scent too. Get a pheasant, quail, or whatever u plan to wing and let him maul it. THen take a second one and put it on a fishing pole. After a few min of mauling to first wing take it away and let him point the wing on the pol. DO no let him catch this one.

I have read that you should do this until the dog points then put it up and start on real birds. Am I correct with this?

Addict

[Greg Jennings]

Greg,

Thanks for the welcoming.

You're very welcome.

The walks I'm taking him on are about 15 minutes long. I have been going to a large walking trail that runs along the foothills. This is a gravel trail that is surrounded by sage brush and other weeds. I haven't been pushing him to go in the deep stuff but letting him go off the trail on his own. He hasn't shown any fear yet and has chased a few bugs, attacked various plants,

15 minutes sounds a little long for a 9 week old pup. But if he's not tired, he's not tired. Just keep him wanting more.

and discovered a taste for horse turds. When I take him to a small pond near the trail for a drink

Flagyl!

he dives right in by himself and swims for a bit. He usually jumps in twice.

That's great. Sounds like he has an affinity for water.

What do you mean by "the degree of independence needed by the particular job that you want to do with your pup"? Are you talking about how far to let him hunt in front of me? I am a foot hunter but want to get some horses down the road (5-10 yrs).

That's the right idea. But I think it's more than range. When one imposes *control* on the (average) dog at a young age to do some tasks (e.g., play in some test/trial formats), it seems to hurt their ability to rise to their full potential in others.

I found that I had to make a pretty serious mind-shift. I didn't get it right with my first dog and hopefully am doing a better job with the second.

I have to agree with you on that because I am having to change my views as well. That's why I'm asking for help and trying to learn from other people's experience.

That's where I was about three years ago.

I hesitate to say this as I think I'll get myself in trouble (again), but I think that most people in our circumstances should err to the side of independence.

I pushed my first dog (after coming back to pointing dogs) too hard for his nature. I learned a little from those mistakes and I'm handling my new pup some better.

So, keep it up. Be conservative and let him be a pup for a while. Lean on TAK. He's your breeder. That's what he's there for.

Best,

[Ryan]

Ryan wrote

You can get him on bird scent too. Get a pheasant, quail, or whatever u plan to wing and let him maul it. THen take a second one and put it on a fishing pole. After a few min of mauling to first wing take it away and let him point the wing on the pol. DO no let him catch this one.

I have read that you should do this until the dog points then put it up and start on real birds. Am I correct with this?

Addict

True but you aint going to want to put a dog that young an a adult pheasant. You will end up with a slashed dog. This is where the wing comes in you can even hide it in long grass. Quail and partridge will be okay though.

[Dirtysteve]

Addict
Welcome
Where you located?
Tom has some very nice dogs and I don't think you could go wrong with one of them.
I'm only 2 hours from him and some of us GUPDC Wasatch front guys are going to try and get together once month and train at Lee Kay.
Join the GUPDC and come on out.

[TAK]

Addict,
Keep taking them walks! Also I know that at least two of the litter mates are on birds.
When you intro the pigions from Grandmas barn make sure you take every precaution not to let the pup get hit by a wing or hurt for that matter. Lock the wings with each other an let him get a taste of the bird. I will let a young little pup
I think you are doing great with the little guy.

[TAK]

Dirty Steve
When you have the training days let me know! I know have weekends off and I would for sure make a trip out to do some training!

[fdsjr]

You can get him on bird scent too. Get a pheasant, quail, or whatever u plan to wing and let him maul it. THen take a second one and put it on a fishing pole. After a few min of mauling to first wing take it away and let him point the wing on the pol. DO no let him catch this one.

What do you mean by maul exactly??

[Ryan]

Bite chew tear whatever he sees fit. Let him do whatever he wants to the thing.

[TAK]

Hi all I just found this site and decided to ask a few questions.

I have a 9 week old male GSP that I got from Tom Kosmack at TAK about a week ago. I can't say enough good things about Tom or his dogs.

I have begun working the pup on learning his name and a few other things. I tell him kennel everytime I crate him. I am going to wait on here until he knows his name. He already loves to retrieve but I limit it to a few times and stop. I am also taking daily walks through fields and the foothills around my home. Is there anything else that I should be working on at this point?

When can I introduce him to pigeons? I found a few wild ones that I can catch in my grandmother's barn.

Also who has the better pinch collar? Bill West or Dave Walker? I am going to order a training tape soon but still am not sure which of the two trainers mentioned above I will go with.

I've been a lab man for 13 years so I am new to pointing dogs. Any help would be great.

Thanks,
Addict

As far as the training DVD's I think it is about 6's on this. Dave and Bill train nearlly the same. Never have seen Bill train but have seen Dave.
Either way it is hard to Argue with what each has brought to the table with there dogs!!!!!
The pinch collars Dave sales are almost the same as the West Collars. I have one of Daves and I have a custom made one. The only differnce is were 1 rivit is on mine?????

[Ryan]

I would watch a bunch of training videos and read a bunch of books then decide what method you like most. Alter what u need to and splice in other training methods if you want.

For me it was Wing and Shot by Robert G. Wehle. I wanted a dog that behaved like a feild trial dog but would only be used in hunt tests and regualr hunting. I didnt want a dog that was broken to wing and shot so I cut that part out. Over all I have a really good gun dog she just needs a little more training is some parts.

[Dirtysteve]

TAK
Rob and I are trying to get something going. I talked with him last night about it. We will definitely let you know and maybe talk you into emailing everybody.
I would like to do it on a weekend day and make the day out of it, if we could get enough of us there.

[12 Volt Man]

As soon and Dirtysteve gets his new pups then we will do it. I am also thinking probably a weekend day. Maybe early Saturday morning. This week they will re-key the Lee Kay center. I will go get a key next week and we should be set. Everyone will be welcome. It will be fun. Oh wait, no GSP's allowed Just kidding of coarse.

TAK
Rob and I are trying to get something going. I talked with him last night about it. We will definitely let you know and maybe talk you into emailing everybody.
I would like to do it on a weekend day and make the day out of it, if we could get enough of us there.

[Addict]

Dirtysteve,

I'm up in cache valley and usually do my training up a canyon or in the field next to my house. I'll have to learn where all these places to train are over the mountain. I'd be very interested in meeting with you guys to train.

Addict

[12 Volt Man]

Lee Kay is out near the Air Port and is pretty well centrally located for most of us. You are welcome to come. As soon as we know the time and dates we will let everyone know.

[Addict]

Addict,
Keep taking them walks! Also I know that at least two of the litter mates are on birds.
When you intro the pigions from Grandmas barn make sure you take every precaution not to let the pup get hit by a wing or hurt for that matter. Lock the wings with each other an let him get a taste of the bird. I will let a young little pup
I think you are doing great with the little guy.

Thanks Tak!

Thanks for your input on the collars and tapes as well. Glad to know I'm going in the right direction.

Addict

[Addict]

I pushed my first dog (after coming back to pointing dogs) too hard for his nature. I learned a little from those mistakes and I'm handling my new pup some better.

Greg,

I pushed my second lab really hard on the obedience. I was using Evan Grahams methods. I think I focused more on the obedience than chasing birds and it kind of hampered his upland abilities. It took awhile to get him to get out away from my side because of all the drills I had him doing. He is cured now and does great on pheasants but I don't want to go through that again. I think it would be easier to reel them in then to force them out.

Addict

[Dirtysteve]

Cache Valley is the only place that has wild birds left isn't it ?
Maybe we'll come to you to train
Well maybe out in the Basin there's a few left but TAK won't tell me where his secret spots are.

[Addict]

I posted a few pictures of my pup in the photo album. Two are under puppies and one I put in gundogs by mistake.

Addict

[TAK]

Heck DS it will be better to just have a few people training the dogs! I am game...

[Dave Gowdey]

Don't know what type of GSPs that TAK breeds. If they are cooperative dogs with strong natural instincts, then they will almost train themselves. In that case, remember a few things.

The first is PATIENCE. A bird dog doesn't become a competent professional until it's about two years old - no matter what you do. Some come on like gangbusters early, and some are late bloomers, but in general they all tend to even out in that third season. With cooperative dogs you can start early as you are doing. Basically, start as you mean to go on. First build a foundation of love and trust with the pup. Remember, you are going to have to trust this dog to work a distance from you, and often out of sight, so start building that mutual trust early. Become best buddies. Taking him on walks, letting him follow you around, playing with him, and having as much physical contact with him as you can are all parts of this. A dog that loves and trusts you will hunt better for you.

Teach him rather than train him. As a pup he will naturally look to you, as the pack leader, for examples of how he should behave and what he should be doing. Praise him when he does good, and give him a finger wagging or short growl when he does wrong. Use his natural instincts to help you teach him. There is nothing wrong with playing retrieve with him at this age, and teaching him to fetch. It is, or should be, a natural instinct with GSPs.

To teach him come, give him the command bend down to his level and clap your hands. He should come romping up to you naturally. Praise and pet him when he does this. If he doesn't, move away from him clapping your hands. He should follow to see what's going on. Praise him when he gets to you. Once he learns what come means, you can then exercise him on the command, and chastize him when he ignores it. Come is the most important command you will teach him because it's the one that can save his life in the field.

The wing is an excellent way to start a young pup off. Get the pup pointing the wing, then move it to higher grass and have him pointing it by scent alone. I let the pup "catch" the wing as a reward only after I have released him with an OK command. I do this to keep up his enthusiasm. If he busts in on his own, he doesn't catch the wing. The purpose of the wing is to lay the foundation for an introduction to birds. If done properly, and the wing is used in a manner that mimics natural circumstances - the transition to wild birds will be easy. Many pups trained with the wing will point staunchly on their first introduction to wild birds. Pen raised birds are more difficult - and care should be used to make sure that your pup doesn't catch any of those. This will set your training back. I would wait until he is at least three to four months old before introducing him to full grown birds - when he is physically big enough not to run the risk of injury or intimidation by the birds.

Finally, have patience. Don't push your pup too fast. Remember he still has to growand develop physically, and that there are many things that a small puppy simply physically can't do. That means you have to put a check on your expectations - and not get frustrated if Joe's pup down the block is doing cartwheels before your pup can run without falling down. I'd bet that most dog training problems are caused by frustrated owners trying to push dogs too fast. Late bloomers often prove to be the better hunters. Let him come along at his pace. This means that you should always make teaching sessions short and fun - and let him tell you how fast you need to move your training along.

If you get an independent pup with more run than natural point or retrieve, my recommendation would be that you get Bill Tarrant's book about training the Delmar Smith way and follow that program.

I know nothing about the two trainers you have cited, but I would caution that you don't want to use a pinch collar on a young pup - and force at that level is largely unnecessary with cooperative dogs in any case. It is so easy to damage that bond and trust by unintentionally hurting a puppy, even if a book does recommend it. If you once do it, the accusing look in that pups eyes will show you exactly what I mean. If you have a cooperative pup, you can go through that dog's entire life without having to physically correct that dog with much more than the tone of your voice and a scowl. Remember, you are teaching and bringing along a partner- not programming a robot.

[Addict]

Dave,

Nice post. I learned a lot about patience with my ESS (she's a late bloomer) and requires no force. If she needs to be corrected I just have to change the tone of my voice. If I raise my voice she comes to me with head down asking for a pat or rub to make sure I'm not mad at her. She is fourteen months old and just barely started to get excited when we go out to chase wild birds. She is also the most loving and patient dog I have ever seen especially with the new pup. I seriously thought I had a reject dog. She doesn't like to play fetch for long and I really don't want to FF her. I just found that she will play longer if I use a stick instead of a ball or bumper so maybe she will improve now.

Both of my labs were following scent and flushing birds at 6-8 months old. They were quick to learn everything. My current lab will run all over you if you let him. Lost my first lab to cancer last year and he also needed a softer hand. Not as soft as the Springer though.

The ESS has taught me to slow down with my training. With labs and the training methods out there they tell you to start obedience almost from day one. I can see now that that is not for every dog.

I have been playing with a wing occasionally and the pup is doing well on pointing. For right now I'm just working mainly on letting him be a pup and teaching him his name and come.

I was mainly asking about a pinch collar just so that I can have one when it is needed. I only have read about the two styles of training that I mentioned earlier and will have to look at Bill Tarrant's methods so I can expand my knowledge.

I wish I could say that I have trained all of my dogs perfect but I think it’s safe to say that we’ve all made mistakes along the way. It’s a learning process. If you don’t evaluate your mistakes and learn from them, then you can never progress as a trainer.

Addict

[Richard *UT*]

Let me know about the Lee Kay center training. I have a pup from the same litter and would enjoy watching you all train. I am in Kamas but I would love to make the trip down. Addict if you wanted to split the cost of one of the training videos from Dave Walker, let me know. You could buy the one on pups
and I could buy the one on finnishing a dog and we could swap.
Which pup did you get? If you have a pic of the white mark on the chest, I will know which one it was right away. I just about picked one of the solid ones too.
Here is Cash, I am sure he would like to see your dog again

[Richard *UT*]

Let me know about the Lee Kay center training. I have a pup from the same litter and would enjoy watching you all train. I am in Kamas but I would love to make the trip down. Addict if you wanted to split the cost of one of the training videos from Dave Walker, let me know. You could buy the one on pups
and I could buy the one on finnishing a dog and we could swap.
Which pup did you get? If you have a pic of the white mark on the chest, I will know which one it was right away. I just about picked one of the solid ones too.
Here is Cash, I am sure he would like to see your dog again
[/img]

[Addict]

Richard,

I got the pup with the small white patch on his chest. Look in the photo album under puppies. It doesn't show his white patch very well though. I'm not able to view your picture.

I talked to Fay Walker and she recommended the meat on the table training video for me. I told her that I wanted to run NASTRA and that's what she said would be the best one to help me along with my goals. That would be cool though if you still wanted to trade once I get my copy. I won't have it for awhile though.

I think she said at 10-12 weeks is when they start the pups on the stake out chain. I had a friend build me one out of some scrap steel he was going to throw out. It looks like it could hold a dozen dogs!! I might need to put a lighter chain on it. He likes to overbuild things a tad!

Addict

[TOPE]

Hello all
I also have a Tak pup from this litter. He's a liver and white with a blaze and a liver patch on each shoulder. It sounds like we have been doing the same thing with our pups. I did attend the Walker seminar and bought his meat on the table dvd. I like it a lot, its pure Walker. I'm in Riverton and look forward to training at Lee Kay or where ever. Let me know.
Thanks, Larry

[Addict]

Larry,

Welcome to the forum. Glad to see someone else has a pup from TAK. Their nice dogs.

I can't wait to get my copy of Meat on the Table. Is there anything else that we need to be doing with out pups that the video says?

Addict

[TOPE]

One of the first things Dave does on the video is to get a nine week old pup on a carded pigeon. He says to let him do what ever he wants with it. He also stresses retrieval training, the sooner the better. The most difficult part I'm finding is his method of not talking to the dog. He even puts a piece of duct tape over his mouth to demonstrate it!
It sounds like a training session is being put together for Sunday. I'll be there if its a go.