guns shy dog help?

[wardensedge]

I have a 6 month old GSP male that is out for the first time this year. He has been trained and around gunfire but not lots. It never seemed to bother him. He holds a point and does everything like a champ. I could handle him to range a little more but I think it will come with time. He goes on point first thing on a wild bird and we shoot it after I flush it. Things were good two more birds later one flushes low and is shot but not overly close to him. He did not like it and now when someone shoots he heads my way instead of after the bird. He lags behind and after a few more birds I pulled him and we went back to the truck. I talked to him positively and at the truck he started retrieveing again. We were just walking without a gun and he locks up again. I flush but no gun so I don't shoot. I took him out and shot some just me and him and he seems to flinch with each shot and not seem real crazy about it. Hangs really close. The question I have is do I leave him put up in the morning or hope his desire will fight through the gun shyness. What is the sollution and how do I fix it. I have never had a dog act like that. All the things I worried about at 6 months he did perfect held one point for 6 minutes. The things I did not worry about like gunfire kinda messed things up. HELP PLEASE and soon.

Ryan

[kninebirddog]

One thing is when he was startled talking to him beiing nice only rewarded the scared fearful behavior..you would have been better ignoreing your pup acting like nothin happened

it also sounds like a bit to much to fast for a 6 month old baby

back up and slow down

[bobman]

If I understand your post correctly two things your doing wrong are

1) hunting with other people, you mentioned "when somone shoots" never hunt a first year pup over multiple guns ever

2) shooting around him with no bird ( don't ever ever do that with any dog no matter how old or broke it is)

get the dog birdy again then limit the situation to only one shot per bird and put a cylinder choke tube in your gun so you hit each bird and it falls

I would get a friend to go with you and do the shooting while you hold a check cord and let your friend only shoot when hes out in front of the dog so the dog doesn't get the muzzle blast until he understands the relation ship of gun shot means a bird falls. If your hunting pheasants hunt roosts early in the AM in low grass so the dog can see the whole thing. When the dog points you hold the check cord and say nothing to the dog,again say nothing, ask your friend to walk around and come in from the side and only take the shots ( only one shot per flush) that direct the muzzle blast away from the dog.

If you dont have a buddy to help you do the same thing but just pick your shots carefully so your not shooting over the dogs head, you ever have someone shoot over yours and you will understand why.

After the shot , again one shot only, let him run after the bird when its hit, you run with him remember only one shell in the gun at a time so when you run after him you wont have a accident. Talk him up after you get to the bird talk get him as keyed up as you can with a lot of "good boys"


DOn't hunt him over multiple guns again this season

[wardensedge]

Thanks for the advice I am going to grab some birds here after a few more days of rest and see what we can get done. He loves birds and loves to retrieve so I hope we can work out of this. Heck I don't know what I am doing. Only enough to be dangerouse probably but I am trying. Thanks for the help if anyone wants to add anything feel free I will still be listening.

Ryan

[Joe Amatulli]

Ryan gun shyness is a tough one to over come, but a 6 mo. old pup can be fixed.
1. Put the shotgun away start useing a black gun for now.
2. Let the dog chase the bird and fire the pop gun when the dog is some 20 to 30 yards away and away from the dog. Do this for the rest of the season or untill you see no reaction from the dog for some 20 times as he gets more and more comfortable with the sound start shoting that pop gun closer and closer, but allways with him chasing the bird. What you want him to think is, it is fun to chase that bird and the gun is just part of it. Do not do this all at one time let him chase 1 or 2 birds and then put him away give him a day and let him think about. Very importent TAKE YOUR TIME you will only get one shot at this, one false move and he could be gun shy for ever!!!!!! With time bring in a shot gun and start all over again, if you can drop that bird in front of him all the better, and allways prase the heck out of the dog regardless of what he dose. Gun shyness is a confadence problem, you need to make him think he is on top of the world. DO NOT PUT ANY PRESURE ON HIM WHAT SO EVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Joe Amatulli]

One more thing, if your dog is a food hond, when you feed him make noise, bang pots, slam doors, stomp feet, anything that will have your dog associate pleasure and noise as good.
By the way a 6 mo. old pup is way to young to shot over and all that I have written are things that should have been done way before you ever loaded your shoot gun and again DO NOT PUNISH THIS DOG FOR ANYTHING, using a check cord is a form of punishment.
Good Luck

[snips]

I am with Joe here. This is still a pup. Hunt him with a blank gun for awhile and let him grow up and mature some. No pressure, just fun...

[bobman]

IMO If hes birdy killing birds will help him over this, I believe thats better than blanks. Just be sure to do so with one shot

[Joe Amatulli]

Normally that would be correct but, you all ready have a dog that is showing signs of gun shyness and none of the foundation work that should have been done missing, so you can not take a chance on getting it wrong. You will only get one shot at this if the dog does become gun shy it is almost impossible to fix. No short cuts here, take your time. You can also reinforce the pleasure by giving the dog the birds head, and even the hole bird this will also help with his desire. Make it as nice an experience as you can and it should all work out.

[BigShooter]

By the way a 6 mo. old pup is way to young to shot over

As a general rule I agree but as an exception with the right genetics, proper training and handling our two littermates pointed and retrieved over 50 wild cock pheasants at 6 months of age with no apparent ill effects. Both dogs are now 6 1/2 years old.

Mark

[Ditch__Parrot]

Normally that would be correct but, you all ready have a dog that is showing signs of gun shyness and none of the foundation work that should have been done missing, so you can not take a chance on getting it wrong. You will only get one shot at this if the dog does become gun shy it is almost impossible to fix. No short cuts here, take your time. You can also reinforce the pleasure by giving the dog the birds head, and even the hole bird this will also help with his desire. Make it as nice an experience as you can and it should all work out.

Joe,
For clarification here. What do you mean by "giving the dog the birds head, and even the hole bird "? As I was reading this topic I was thinking along the lines of: Shooting a bird before the session with the dog, and then shooting a blank when a bird is in the air, and tossing out the warm freshly killed bird. That way the dog gets the reward of the retrieve without shooting a field load. Is this in the realm of what you were refering to?

[Joe Amatulli]

Bigshooter I am happy for you but this has to do with a dog that is close to becoming gun shy, not that you got away with taking a short cut.
Sadie what I was refuring to was after you get to the point of shooting over the dog. This dog ran away rather than retrieve that bird, the fear of the gun was greater than his desire to get that bird. By allowing him to eat the head or even the hole bird it will hopefully rekindel his desire to get that bird. It will require more work later, but if this dog becomes totally gun shy you have nothing so you try as hard as you can to make sure that does not happen. I have had to deal with a gun shy dog for a friend and tried it by droping the bird in front of the dog it did not work. We were able to get him to say in the field but it was still not pretty, that dog was almost 2 years old, the damage was already done. As he got older he became better but you knew at any time this dog would fold. He is doing OK now but still not right.

[BigShooter]

[quote="Joe Amatulli"] you got away with taking a short cut.
quote]

Joe, you forgot to add, "knowing nothing about you, your dog or it's training, in my opinion (IMO)" you got away with taking a short cut.

[wardensedge]

I took the dog into a group of wild birds just to run him and let him play. He went nuts went on point 10+ times in a 400 yard walk. The birds are heavy in this area. It is CRP and poop and feathers are everywhere where this field buts up to a crop field. We saw 40 birds I bet. One gun and one shot. I took off running and he followed right up. The bird was crippled and he took the path the bird did but it was dry and I knew it would be hard to get too. The guy I had shooting never misses except when I really needed him to kill of course. This was before I read about the blanks. The dog flinched a little but nothing like before. The dog was around gun shots before I took him out and never ahd a problem. I never shot anything in front of him but shot around him a lot. No problem then all of a sudden I duck guys shoot over us and he became this way. Back to the CRP he ran hard and would go on point I would walk in front of him and he would hold it. After kicking around a little I knew the birds ran so I said ok. He smelled and smelled to the point at which he layed down and crawled under the CRP looking for them and did not want to call off but would. He retrieves naturally and likesto pick things up. Dead pheasants as well he loves it. I need to tie the two together I know. But with this area of wild birds keep taking him shoot blanks? My neighbor has pigeons too and I have an electonic bird release that I can work too. Shoot blanks? Take a shotgun an shoot what he points? Shoot blanks after I flush them and let him chase? Or avoid these wild birds that are going to run like crazy and go to pigeons in a different area or place birds in this CRP? And if I do that do I shoot the pigeons or placed birds once I walk out in front of him to flush or flush behind him and shoot when he is chasing? Just me and him and forget the friend? A lot of questions I know but I know how delicate this is so I am asking. Thanks for the help I have put a lot of work in him and just never thought he would be gun shy. Holding points and other things I was way more worried about but he is a champ with that. I shot around him thought it was covered but guess not. Never had a gunshy dog kinda freaking me out.

Thanks again
Ryan

[Don]

At this point I am also for the blanks but quiet then down a bunch. Will the dog go for you if you simply carry the shotgun or is it really worried about the gun? If it will still go, take an MTY shell and drill out the primer pocket with a 1/4" drill. Insert a new primer in the pocket and shoot it. I do that with a SxS but it will work in a pump or auto if you point the muzzle toward the ground when putting in the shell and closing the bolt. It will quiet the sound way down. Once the dog ignors that sound completely, switch to the blank gun but fire it behind your back at first, that will quiet it down some. Then bring it to your side and you should be about there. Blank a lot of birds before going back to the shotgun.

[Sharon]

I took the dog into a group of wild birds just to run him and let him play. He went nuts went on point 10+ times in a 400 yard walk. The birds are heavy in this area. It is CRP and poop and feathers are everywhere where this field buts up to a crop field. We saw 40 birds I bet. One gun and one shot. I took off running and he followed right up. The bird was crippled and he took the path the bird did but it was dry and I knew it would be hard to get too. The guy I had shooting never misses except when I really needed him to kill of course. This was before I read about the blanks. The dog flinched a little but nothing like before. The dog was around gun shots before I took him out and never ahd a problem. I never shot anything in front of him but shot around him a lot. No problem then all of a sudden I duck guys shoot over us and he became this way. Back to the CRP he ran hard and would go on point I would walk in front of him and he would hold it. After kicking around a little I knew the birds ran so I said ok. He smelled and smelled to the point at which he layed down and crawled under the CRP looking for them and did not want to call off but would. He retrieves naturally and likesto pick things up. Dead pheasants as well he loves it. I need to tie the two together I know. But with this area of wild birds keep taking him shoot blanks? My neighbor has pigeons too and I have an electonic bird release that I can work too. Shoot blanks? Take a shotgun an shoot what he points? Shoot blanks after I flush them and let him chase? Or avoid these wild birds that are going to run like crazy and go to pigeons in a different area or place birds in this CRP? And if I do that do I shoot the pigeons or placed birds once I walk out in front of him to flush or flush behind him and shoot when he is chasing? Just me and him and forget the friend? A lot of questions I know but I know how delicate this is so I am asking. Thanks for the help I have put a lot of work in him and just never thought he would be gun shy. Holding points and other things I was way more worried about but he is a champ with that. I shot around him thought it was covered but guess not. Never had a gunshy dog kinda freaking me out.

Thanks again
Ryan

Mercy I'm starting to feel the pressure.

6 months old

S l o w d o w n.

I choose ( b) : wild birds, shoot blanks. let him chase, no friends ......... jmo

[Joe Amatulli]

Ryan it sounds like this dog has more problems than just being gun shy. First like Sharon said SLOWDOWN you are makeing this dog nuts. It does not matter wild or pegeons the idea is to build on the what the dog loves, chasing birds! Makeing him think that the sound is just part of chaseing and that nothing bad happens, so don't have anything bad happen to this dog, that is why you use a pop gun first. After he gets use to the sound of the pop gun you begin to make it loader. If you can get into wild birds so much the better, if this dog is that birdy it wouldn't take long, but again take your time, calm down, if you act like a nut so will he and he may mistaken it as displeasure and always praise the dog. To make sure nothing bad happens keep your friends away, the less people are around the less the chance of a mistake.

If you do not have a blank gun Don's way works.
Joe

[BDBUzi]

"...No problem then all of a sudden I duck guys shoot over us and he became this way. "

It sounds to me like he may be feeding off your response. You say you ducked, and they shot over you. I've never experienced this myself, but they say to pay no attention when a dog reacts to gun fire. Maybe he's reacting to your action on that one single shot??

Not sure if it's accurate or not, just thought I'd throw it out there.

[wardensedge]

No the gun does not bother him. I walked with one the other day and he is not affraid of it at all. He runs right up to me. Tonight I took a blank pistol out and we walked a half mile and saw 20 birds. He pointed several scents but those wild birds were running. He pointed a couple of hens and I flushed and the dog chased I shot the other direction and he never slowed down. Had to walk over a hill once to call him back. He got in on a rooster with the wrong wind and turned to point and it flushed I did not shoot that time. He pointed a plastic bag from 50 yards stuck in the weeds and a plast white lid from about ten. Sight pointed both of those and he held the points until I picked up the trash. Then after I called him he released. He is not scared of the gun. He ranged good tonight and quartered good into the wind. I could not have asked for anything better. He did everything perfect in my amature eyes. It is hard because I am excited to get through this to shoot birds for him but I keep thinking just be patient. Fired six blanks tonight one on each point and he never change anything just ran to catch them. One bird flushed from our right flew in front and he was it from my left and started chasing. I did not shoot that time because he did not point it. That is what I am getting from what I read and watch correct? I think about ten more times of this and then switch to a shotgun and one shot. Then as he retrieves and comes along start shooting more is that right?

Thanks
Ryan

[Joe Amatulli]

It sounds like you are on your way, very well done. Start shooting the blank gun closer and closer but never untill you are sure he is casing, what that does is, he has his mind on getting that bird, not the shoot so it just becomes a no big deal. When you start using the shootgun do it the same way first at a distance and than closer and closer, do not shot the bird untill you are sure there is no reaction. Yes do not shot unless he points, that will help later when it's time to brake the dog. It sounds like you are going to be alright.

Joe

[wardensedge]

As you can see from my picture all the advice worked. He is a machine in my eyes and retrieves to hand now at 10 months old. He is great thanks again everyone.

Ryan

[BigShooter]

Thanks for letting us know how it worked out.

[gonehuntin']

I copied this from my post on the other board.


A dog is very much like a person. Your fear of one thing can be so great, it outweighs your desire to do another thing.

In this instance, your dog would love to retrieve, but something about that loud noise (gunshot) has him so concerned, that the retrieve becomes secondary to his fear of the noise.

So how do we counter this? There are two ways really, one using birds and the other to just subject him to the loud noise in a pleasant surrounding over, and over, and over, and over until he learns not to fear the noise. It doesn't really matter how he was gunshyed, my guess is the 4th of July, either method will eventually overcome his fear of it.

I'll try and explain it so you understand. Your dog is a BIRD DOG. He was bred, born, made, to hunt and retrieve birds. That IS his life. It isn't being petted, watching TV, or eating. It is getting a bird in his mouth and retrieving that bird. That desire overcomes every other desire the dog has, the desire to eat, the desire to breathe, nearly the desire for life. It is the most powerful driving force the dog possesses. Don't believe that? When the dog is eating, yell mark and throw a bird. I guarantee he'll bolt from the food dish and grab the bumper. Same if he's on a female breeding her and you throw a bird. I guarantee if he hasn't locked up yet, he'll jump off, get that bird and return to his other favorite past time.

So what does this mean to us? It mean that we channel his most powerful drive and use it to cure his greatest fear. By first throwing clip wings with no shot and letting that drive surface and grow, and letting the dog have fun, we enhance the drive God has given him then cure him of the gunshyness by using it. It is the fastest method I know of to cure a dog of gunshyness yet build that incredible desire. If you get impatient and rush it, it won't work. Here are the steps in order. There is no time sequence. You proceed only to the next step when the dog is completing the step he's on at 100%. If you proceed too fast, you can lose all of the steps and have to start all over.

1). Get the dog birdy. With no gun involved, have a helper throw a clip wing pigeon and let the dog retrieve it. Start short at 50 yards and work out to 100 yards. Never throw the birds so many times the dog wants to quit. About 10 times a session is fine. If you don't have a helper, throw them yourself.

2). Good. He's birdy now. You have to restrain him and when you let him go, he goes flat out for each pigeon, grabs it and comes back. He is insane to get the birds. Now we add a gun and a helper. Have a helper stand 100 yards out in a BARE field with a riffle and .22 blanks. Start with a .22 crimp then go to the regular .22 blank. Have the helper throw the bird in the air without firing and send the dog. Have the helper yell MARK before throwing the bird to get the dog's attention. After the dog makes a couple of retrieves, have the helper yell MARK, fire the riffle in the air with the muzzle pointed away from the dog and send the dog while the bird is still in the air. You use a riffle because the report is softer than with a pistol. A pistol directs the sound out each side and they're so loud they even hurt your ears. Use a riffle. Did the dog do it OK? Did he show any hesitation? If all went well, throw another six birds, firing a shot when the bird is in the air and sending the dog.

3).Step three is exactly the same as step two, but shorten the helper to 90 yards. Each time you progress to the next step, shorten it up by 10 yards. If the dog shows any hesitation, back up 10 yards.

4). Now 80 yards.

5). Now 70 yards.

6) Now 60 yards.

7) Now 50 yards.

. Now 40 yards.

9) Now 30 yards.

10) Now 20 yards.

11) Now, for step 11, get rid of the helper. Now you take the clip wing, throw it, and when the dog is in full pursuit, fire the gun with the muzzle directed away from the dog.. He should completely ignore the shot and dive for the bird.

12)Now repeat step 11 EXCEPT don't shoot the gun when the bird is in the air. Wait until the dog pounces for the bird, his full attention on the bird, and fire the gun. Timing is crucial and is everything here.

13). The final step with the .22 is to sit the dog, throw the bird with the dog sitting at your side, and shoot the gun when the bird is in the air and send the dog. Did everything go OK? Then we're now ready to introduce the shotgun.

To introduce the shotgun back right up to step 1 and do the whole 13 steps over again. Sound boring and that it will take you a long time? It is and it does. That's why you pay a pro so much to cure a gun shy dog. If the dog is not a bird-a-holic, you won't cure him by this method. If he isn't a bird-a-holic, dump him because that isn't the dog you want anyhow.

With a new pup, you don't have to be this careful, this is how a gun shy dog is broken. If you get a new pup you break him to the gun differently, but that's for another thread.

You sound like an impatient, young lad to me. Patience. If you have no patience and aren't willing to follow a plan, you'll never train a dog. Patience, common sense, a progressive program, understanding, discipline, a good dog. That's dog training.
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