Need advice; Training for UT

[phermes1]

Hey all,

I'm looking to start focusing more heavily on preparing my dog Shooter for a UT/UPT test in the spring and could use any advice that folks might have. While I have watched UT/UPT tests a few times, I've only run dogs myself in NA, so it will be somewhat new territory.

Anyway, here's what I'm working with. He will turn 7 in December. He's been running in AKC field trials and hunt tests to this point and has done well. His fieldwork, imo, is basically where it needs to be. He's about as steady as you can get, and while I've taught him the 'hold' command, he has not been force-fetched. He's got a nice natural retrieve - by any AKC field trial or hunt test standard, his retrieve is very good. From what I've observed, however, NAVHDA judges are a little pickier about the retrieve, so I'd probably say it's passable by NAVHDA standards. I would like to improve on it, but at the moment, it's not our primary challenge.

My biggest area of concern by far is the duck search, which we have done very little work on. He loves swimming, he loves chasing ducks, but I realize it takes a little more than that to pass a duck search! If I took him to the water's edge, shot a gun, and yelled fetch, he'd look at me like, "Huh? Fetch WHAT?"

So - I guess I'm mainly looking for advice on working on his duck search. I understand that force-fetch helps a lot toward that end. Also, what are everyone's thoughts on the Smartwork line of DVD's? I saw that one DVD is focused on water work. That one got my attention, but I'm guessing I'm getting ahead of myself and would want to start the force-fetch process from the very beginning before getting to the water.

All advice appreciated!

-Paul

[crackerd]

...while I've taught him the 'hold' command, he has not been force-fetched. He's got a nice natural retrieve - by any AKC field trial or hunt test standard, his retrieve is very good. From what I've observed, however, NAVHDA judges are a little pickier about the retrieve, so I'd probably say it's passable by NAVHDA standards.

Don't know what they could be "pickier" about, unless AKC is (now even more) lax on retrieving to hand, and letting you cajole (plead with) the dog into delivering. Otherwise, insofar as NAVHDA, the dog either puts the goods in your palm, or it doesn't, and you're scored accordingly. Dropping the bird and then picking it up again would be a slight markdown, and another that once got me "demoted" to Prize II was going to my knees to take delivery as the dog was coming out of the water with a duck. Suffice to say I'd been told earlier that doing so wouldn't affect the dog's score--it didn't, but apparently the handler (me) got points deducted "on the dog's behalf."

Since you asked, the duck search is not something that's really be imparted or honed by traditional retriever training, as espoused by Smartworks. There is a blind retrieve and there is a duck search, and never the twain does meet. They're conflictive in that a blind retrieve is a handling test and a duck search is the dog (supposedly) using its nose to stay up with escaping prey. But a dog that will take to the water with the impetus of finding a duck (and Smartwork can help you there) is a good start for the search. First, get the dog retrieving marks--longer marks, so that it has to swim a way to get them. Make the marks ducks--flyers are probably be beyond your resources (human, as in having a thrower and a gunner), but dead ducks will suffice. Just have someone else throw them and you or that person can shoot as the duck is tossed.

I'd recommend mixing it up, because eventually the dry pop from shore will help propel the dog out for its search. It's induced into thinking, "A shot, a bird--didn't see it fall, gotta use my snoz for this one." By now you've also started planting dead ducks around the water, at increasing distances. So that if the dog gets 50 yards out, it finds a duck. Next time, if it gets 100 yards out, it finds a duck, and progressing not just to greater distances but strewing the dead ducks along objectives--in the elbow of a blowdown, against a beaver dam, etc.

Your NAVHDA chapter or chapters wouldn't be in business unless they had satisfactory water for testing the duck search. Consult some of the successful handlers whose brains you can pick over what worked and where they worked with their dogs. Mostly it's repetition with the send, and the dog *always* returning with a duck as it lengthens the search. You can overlay introduction of a live shackled duck into the training not long after starting out. Seeing that you're in Florida, because of the big lizard circumstances, training for the duck search may be a more imaginative, if not perilous undertaking. You just have to commit to doing whatever it takes, short of your dog turning into an unwitting participant in a "versatile search."

Good luck,

MG

[phermes1]

Don't know what they could be "pickier" about, unless AKC is (now even more) lax on retrieving to hand, and letting you cajole (plead with) the dog into delivering. Otherwise, insofar as NAVHDA, the dog either puts the goods in your palm, or it doesn't, and you're scored accordingly. Dropping the bird and then picking it up again would be a slight markdown, and another that once got me "demoted" to Prize II was going to my knees to take delivery as the dog was coming out of the water with a duck. Suffice to say I'd been told earlier that doing so wouldn't affect the dog's score--it didn't, but apparently the handler (me) got points deducted "on the dog's behalf."

Example; I've seen handlers make the dog sit in front of them and hold the bird until commanded to release it. I've had judges tell me it's desirable. I don't do that; never had a need in AKC stuff. He gets it, he comes back, he drops it in my hand. I don't make him wait. He almost never drops it. I cheer him on sometimes when he comes back, but it's not much and by no means am I begging. I'll sometimes get on one knee, which I probably don't need to and it's as much for my own comfort as anything. None of that is a big deal in AKC, but the way I understand it, those things would earn me a ding or two in NAVHDA.

Thanks for the advice. Yes, finding lakes to train on is a little tricky. I belong to the hunt club that our NAVHDA chapter tests at, so I do have access to water that I know is kept clear of gators, but it's also 80 miles away, so I can't train on it during the week. I live about 2 miles from a dog beach as well, which is handy but also doesn't have an opposing bank to throw ducks from.


Anyway, thanks. I'm sure I'll have more questions, and if ya can think of anything else, keep it coming!

[Scott Linden]

Hey all,

I'm looking to start focusing more heavily on preparing my dog Shooter for a UT/UPT test in the spring and could use any advice that folks might have. While I have watched UT/UPT tests a few times, I've only run dogs myself in NA, so it will be somewhat new territory.

Anyway, here's what I'm working with. He will turn 7 in December. He's been running in AKC field trials and hunt tests to this point and has done well. His fieldwork, imo, is basically where it needs to be. He's about as steady as you can get, and while I've taught him the 'hold' command, he has not been force-fetched. He's got a nice natural retrieve - by any AKC field trial or hunt test standard, his retrieve is very good. From what I've observed, however, NAVHDA judges are a little pickier about the retrieve, so I'd probably say it's passable by NAVHDA standards. I would like to improve on it, but at the moment, it's not our primary challenge.

My biggest area of concern by far is the duck search, which we have done very little work on. He loves swimming, he loves chasing ducks, but I realize it takes a little more than that to pass a duck search! If I took him to the water's edge, shot a gun, and yelled fetch, he'd look at me like, "Huh? Fetch WHAT?"

So - I guess I'm mainly looking for advice on working on his duck search. I understand that force-fetch helps a lot toward that end. Also, what are everyone's thoughts on the Smartwork line of DVD's? I saw that one DVD is focused on water work. That one got my attention, but I'm guessing I'm getting ahead of myself and would want to start the force-fetch process from the very beginning before getting to the water.

All advice appreciated!

-Paul

Hey Paul,

Good luck. I'm in the same boat (pardon the pun), and would have tested UT this fall if an emergency surgery hadn't gotten in the way. Duck search is the bugaboo for many of us. (See my site for a lot of posts on getting ready for the UT test: www.scottlindenoutdoors.com). I got a lot of sound advice:

- It's not a simple retrieve, it's a search. Think of it as a hunt in the field, with the dog expected to cover a lot of water.
- Train for it. Show the dog a duck. Let him see you lob it into the brush/water. Extend the period between tossing and sending the dog.
- Eventually, he'll learn that when you approach the water, there's a duck in there somewhere.
- And this, from a judge: you can direct the dog to different parts of the marsh simply by facing that direction. Most dogs will respond to the brightness of your face and try to get out front of it.

Keep us posted! Maybe I'll see you at a test this spring.

[crackerd]

Scott, the reason the duck search is a bugaboo is too many handlers overthink themselves on how to go about it. "Trust your dog" will suffice if the dog's been brought along properly for the search. *You* should not lob ducks--if a duck (live preferably) is tossed from shore, it should be done by someone else. Otherwise, the dog's had it imprinted that *you* will be tossing the duck every time, and expecting that when it comes to the line. But above all, the duck should not be tossed from shore--it should be released by someone in a boat or kayak, at a distance as I advised above--and even that should be preceded by the dog first going that distance for a mark and getting comfortable in big water.

When the duck is released, *you* should take your dog offline for 30 seconds or so, then come back to it and fire the dry shot in the direction of where the duck was splashed, and send your dog straight away. The kayak will have backed off too, and the dog can search unimpeded and without any thought of being drawn to the kayak as a duck Pez dispenser.

One other thing you may not know about the duck search, and it's bemusing: Most handlers don't want their dogs actually catching up to the duck--for two reasons. One is that they get scored on a retrieve, as well as the search, when that happens; two, it usually means the search was abbreviated and the dog will have to be resent for a longer search to meet the time limit (if it's still used in NAVHDA; they were "softening" the duck search requirements last I checked), and 2a: a lot of versatiles believe it or not won't pick up a live duck.

The duck search is artifice in the extreme but it's a joy to behold. It's also what got me into retrievers--the water work. A dog using its nose in water is a thing of beauty to behold, and it juicily contravenes all the old chain gang films where the convict jumped into a crick and crossed it, and of course the bloodhounds gave up pursuit when they got to the water's edge implying that they either couldn't track through water, or couldn't swim.

The flip side of how enjoyable I find the duck search was when the Super Retriever Series competition used a Dokken attached to a pulley, towing the rubber duck under water and having it surface 40-50 feet from where the dogs saw it splash in the water as a mark. To come up with it, the dog actually had to use its nose, its power of search or hunt, and that caused some serious swearing among the handlers.

MG

[larue]

the duck search is the best part of a ut test,plain and simple,it is a blast for the dogs.
The best answer is to get your dog to really have fun finding ducks in a marsh,by having him find ducks in a marsh.
He will tear apart the duck search if he loves swimming and finding ducks.
I would start by throwing a wing clipped duck out in the water,with your dog watching the duck swim away into cover,just before the duck gets out of sight send the dog for the retrieve,he should chase the duck and if the duck gets out of sight,then he has to track and search for it.Keep doing this until the dog really is understanding it,and have the dog watch less and less of the release of the duck until you are no longer letting the dog see the duck being thrown.
You should also be ready with a gun,if the dog cannot catch the duck,as some ducks can out swim a dog for a long time.
Now if your dog gets confused and starts to stop searching or heads back to you,you should have a helper in a boat with more ducks with him.Have the helper throw a duck in the air,to get the dog focused on finding another duck,instead of quitting or coming back to you.(the helper should be out of the dogs sight in cover).If the help comes from out in the marsh,in the form of
more ducks the dog will learn he can always find a duck if he just looks hard enough,and he will come to really enjoy this part.
You can always tell a dog who knows he will find a duck,he tears the marsh apart looking for one,and he will resend for more ducks as it is just plain fun for him,in fact you might find you have more of an issue getting him out of the water,if he does not find a duck.

[snips]

Rick went thu Ut training and testing and Fritz never knew how to sit. Still does'nt. The dog can stand, just so he brings the bird to hand, and he can stand on the bank when the shots are fired for the duck retrieve (when you leave him alone).

[phermes1]

Thanks, everybody. Lots of good advice. I have a few ideas I'll be giving a shot now.

Shooter sure does love his ducks, now to just get him convinced that there is always one to find when he goes into a pond; much like he's convinced that there are birds to be found when you let him out into a field.

[larue]

he will quickly learn that water means he gets to chase,so it will become fun!
I will always remember watching a dog on a duck search pointing a duck,he was standing on a floating bog.and he slowly sank
all the way into the water,all the while still pointing the duck.It was really neat to see that much point in a dog,not that it helped him in the test,but it was cool to watch.

[Shotgun Kennel]

Here is how I have been sucessful. Put out 3-5 teathered ducks out 25 yards or so where it can see them. Sit him, shoot the gun and send him. Next time don't shoot and send him. Let him realize there are more ducks to get but don't let him pick those up. Do this a couple times and depending when he is ready move the ducks farther out. Keep repeating this exersize until the ducks are a long way out. Plus now spread them out over a greater distance in width. Then start reducing the number of ducks but making sure he is always sucessful. After awhile he will know there is a duck to be found if he searches long enough.

He will get so when he sees that water it is automatic. "Oh ya, This is where I get to go get the duck"