Roading dogs - Time or distance

[Wa Chukar Hunter]

Just wondering if you guys/gals think it is best to road dogs for a predetermined distance at a certain speed on a quad - or a predetermined time at a certain speed on a quad?

Is there are rough estimate - what is the best time or distance to road dogs for trialling in 1/2 hr or 1 hr stakes?

[kninebirddog]

Most I know road Longer then the TIME the dog will be down at a trial

[original mngsp]

For 30 minutes stakes i will usually road my dogs between 40-50 minutes. I will intersperse this with 20 minute runs with them dragging chains.

Hopefully some day I have an hour dog that I have to change my program for.

[original mngsp]

Howie, no idea. Enough to make the dogs work.

I'm hoping soon to maybe get my hands on the roading chains that Nehring used for Boss Ranger, I know where they are and are they some monsters.

[Hotpepper]

The old rule was, "they could do 3 times the normal working time and space", 30 minutes could do an hour and a half when allout.

I like to work both, time and distance, and distance and time, in reverse. Bud likes to work so much, I worry he will overdue at the outset or if we have not been doing the roading for a spell. He will literally pull on your pant leg if he wants to do more, hence the reverse. I also do not want to go so long as to let the "gorilla" out. That is one who just revs it up and does not listen and handle as they should. There is a fine line there. My in hour shape for him is about 1 hour roading and between 6 & 7 miles to do that. I have not done chains but Rob Creaney roaded Willie from horseback for an hour pulling chains.

IMHO it is not too hard to get them ready for the hour, that is the most we do. I really like to intersperse some "free" "running" if I have the place to turn them loose to do it safely.


Jerry

[RayGubernat]

When I road dogs it is always slow roading against resistance. By slow roading I mean at a walking pace. Indeed in late August and early September, I do indeed road dogs on foot. It gets me in shape as well. I find that a mix of slow roading with free running works well for my dogs.

As far as time or distance I always opt for time.

I have found that if I can have a dog pull consistently in harness for twenty minutes, they have more than enough endurance to run hard for a half hour in front of a horse and if a dog can consistently pull against me or the horse for forty or more minutes, it can run for an hour with no letup in a horseback stake.

RayG

[AZ Brittany Guy]

I am cross-posting Sharon Potters recap of Rick Smith's conditioning program for Pacolet Cheyenne Sam when he won a 3 hour Shooting Dog Championship. I think it says it all.

OK, after much delay...here it is. This is what Rick did to prepare for a three hour endurance championship.

First, some theories: if you work hard one day, you need to rest the next day. It's a proven fact that when muscles are worked hard, they break down a little. If you rest between hard workouts, the muscles have time to rebuild. The dog has to really lean in and pull, and has to be comfortable enough to enjoy doing it..

Each individual dog needs a good roading harness that fits well. Just like a backpack, if it rubs the shoulders, the dog won't want to really pull into it. They can't loaf in the harness, and you can't make them pull. A dog needs a lot of heart to do this.

With Pacolet Cheyenne Sam, Rick first of all made sure he was in excellent health. That meant parasite free and good nutrition (Purina) all through the program. He had the dog in good trim weight, meaning the dog had no excess weight and you could see the outline of the ribcage.

He started roading him (meaning pulling in the harness, not just running) which is resistance training. It was an every other day regimen. It was early fall and hot when he started. Sam was worked hard for ten minutes (this is actual pulling time, not total time elapsed). When the dog is working the best and hardest, the tail is up and the dog is really into it. The dog should be pulling at the fastest walk it can dowithout breaking into a trot. After about two weeks, when Sam's pads were toughened up enough to not get sores, Rick added a minute or two each time. He read the dog by watching the tail. When the tail would start to drop, Rick would stop and give him a water break of two or three minutes, then go back to work. He never pushed the dog until it wanted to quit. Rick always quit before the dog did, to keep the enthusiasm going. As fall progressed, the weather got cooler. He was getting in better shape, so it was easier for the dog to last longer. Rick never broke from the every other day roading routine, for any reason. This includes Christmas. Nothing else got in the way of the routine. When Rick was on the road at trials, from about October on, whether it was a 30 minute stake or an hour stake, at pickup rather than putting the dog in the box, Rick put him in the roading harness and followed the gallery. During workouts when Rick turned him loose, as son as the dog had one find, Rick would put the roading harness on and road him because the dog was fired up and would really pull hard.
Leading up to the 3 hr. championship, Rick entered him in the Brittany National Championship (one hour) and he ran a strong hour there. This was late November. In mid January he ran in the Arkansas Shooting Dog Classic, ( the only brit among all pointers and setters). In late January, he ran the National Open Shooting Dog Championship, again the only brittany. That was an hour and a half stake, and he ran strong for the whole hour and a half. That's when the final decision was made to enter Sam in the International Endurance Open Shooting Dog Championship, which was the three hour stake, and Sam was again the only brittany.

During workouts once a week, (on an off day from roading) Rick never turned him loose longer than one hour and fifty minutes, and he'd stay at a short lope on his horse behind the dog, so it was a fairly fast pace. He was killing birds for the dog as well, since it was hunting season. The roading portion had increased by this time to two hours and twenty minutes, at a speed walk/pull, with about four water breaks spread out throughout the workout. This was February, so it was cold enough to do this kind of work.

During all this, the feed intake was increased to maintain the just showing outline of the ribcage. A blood count was taken just to make sure everything was normal. While he was being roaded, as soon as the dog would start to slow just a bit, Rick would blow the whistle to send the dog on and encourage him to push for awhile longer, but still quitting before the dog quit. When the tail got down to about level, it was time to quit before the dog did. The total time spent conditioning for this event was five months.

Right before the Endurance Championship, Rick laid the dog up for five days and did not work him at all. The weather was cold, and this gave the dog's body and mind a chance to recharge some. He didn't do anything but leave the dog alone during this time. By the time Sam was turned loose, he was pumped to run.

Hope this answers the questions you've all been waiting for the answer to.

[scotly50]

This regimen closely resembles marathon training for runners. I bet he took the principles of their training and adapted it to dog training.

[AZ Brittany Guy]

Scotly,

The Smiths have been known to (borrow) ideas from other places. I know they use a lot of horse training techneiques.

[Wa Chukar Hunter]

Thanks

At summer camp we road for distance - either 6, 8, 10 or 12 miles - usually 10. But, here in TX - I road for time because I have no reliable way of telling the distance travelled so - I started roading them for 20 minutes and will eventually work up to 1 hr.

The setup we have in SD is optimal - we road on dirt or pea gravel roads - have water stations every mile for the dogs to cool off or get drinks from. Here in TX while still good - we have to road through meadows and woodlots on a mixture of dirt and gravel with limestone mixed in. - Two creek crossings provide water for the dogs about every 10 minutes.

Started this thread - because I was curious as to what other experiences were and perhaps learn a better way to do it.

Keith - Posting from Under the Live Oaks

[NVgsp]

Great topic. This has been something i have been tinkering w/ for a couple months now, but like Ray suggested w/ roading the dogs by having them pull at a walking pace, is the way i started getting them in working condition. from then on we have been out w/ the quad. at first it was a 10 min pull, then a 15 min, then up to 20 min etc... this was at an 8-10 mph ride. enough to promote constant resistance. fyi: at about 8-10 mph for 30 min, is roughly 4 miles. mix this up w/ a free run, and those pups are in real good shape. mind you that my dogs arent trial dogs, but i want them in good shape for bird season. this has been working for me, but now that its hunting season, we have been spending more time in the field then on the quad.

[AZ Brittany Guy]

I have a question. What do you all think is the proper age to start roading a young dog? Is their other measuring sticks besides age?

[RayGubernat]

I am not exercising a dog for hunting. I am condidtioning a dog to go all out...balls to the wall for either a half hour or an hour at a trial. If you are conditioning a dog for hunting, I personally think that free running, with a little bit of resistance roading is probably the best regimen.

As far as age is concerned, I think it is probably counterproductive and possibly dangerous to their health to have a very young dog in a roading harness. Bad things can happen if you are not very careful...especially to the very best, most motivated, hard charging youngsters. They simply do not know any better. The best of them will run until they fall over on their noses. We need to keep them on this side of that kind of exhaustion.

However, it is all in how you do it. My goal is to build them up without tearing anything down. That is why I road dogs on foot for the most part in the heat of the summer. I can instantly feel and know when the dog has had enough. I also carry lots of water.

I have had nine month old pups in a roading harness, attached to me walking, and have gotten some good work done in the heart of the summer. If you have a youngster, you are the one who has to know when to quit. The instant a yong dog stops pulling hard is the time to water it and love it up and heel it back. It might be only ten minutes, but that is fine, because the instant the youngster stops pulling... it is done.

Same goes for free running...when the dog stops "going for it", it is done. It gets watered, put in harness, loved up, and walked back to the stakeout or kennel. YOu gotta know when to quit.

I try to build up the dog's tolerance for exertion in the heat...without ever crossing the line. if you push too hard and break the dog down, you might not ever get them back to where they were.

If I am consistent with the exercise, it is not unreasonable to have a dog that can pull me in harness for twenty plus minutes in eighty plus temps, by September 1. That same dog can be expected to run, and run hard, for a half hour in front of a horse in the same temps(with a little water) and most importantly...with no ill effects.

RayG

[Greg Jennings]

FWIW, I really enjoy hiking with my dog. He's in a roading harness attached to my waist with a long jaeger lead. We have several places that have hills, are completely shaded and loop back and forth across/alongside a clean, flowing creek. I work up to an hour including the frequent breaks at the creek for a drink and dip. Hiking like this is good for the dog and good for the human.

It can get hairy at times. Recommend holding the lead in hand, not attached around waist, going up or down steep inclines and going across stepping stones on creeks. Recommend shoes with good traction.

[AZ Brittany Guy]

On age, I think Ray's comments are good. I'm not a vet but I think you would wait until the pups bone growth is about complete before putting stress on bones and joints. I think that regardless if your dog is a hunting partner or a trial dog, roading done in a responsible way can only help them. I road both my trial and hunting dogs 2 - 3 times a week and find that they stay in great condition but they are also calmer and quieter in the kennels.