Training older dog that has had zero training...

[Equismith]

I rescued a Brit from a local shelter. He's not been neutered and I'm guessing he's about 4 years old. He's currently 35lbs.

He doesn't do anything. Lead, whoa, here, no, etc...

I have the Delmar Smith/Bill Tarrant book and several others as well as a few DVDs. I have not had time to review them yet. It's been a while since I've even cracked the books open. I've veiwed the DVDs once.

I know it's all on my shoulders to get him started, but have any of you ever gotten an older dog that has had zero training? If so, I thought I'd go with leading first, but he pulls so freakin hard and does not even hint at a response to a good yank on the lead. He currently has a leather collar only and I'm not greatly fond of choke chains/collars. I've even tried looping the lead around the loins to no effect.

And a side note, he may have been abused by the previous owner. He's a loving animal but if I have something in my hand, be it a treat, lead, check chord, tape measure, glass of tea, anything, he cowers down like I'm going to beat him. This part is getting better as I try to love on him and handle him alot so that he trusts me.

We have cats. He has chased them upstairs numerous times. I have just started to get him to respond to a loud disapproving grunt of aaaaaayt ( like the first part of the pronunciation by the duck in the AFLAC commercials ), but "No" seems to have no effect at all.

He does not respond to any treat that I've found. He does respond to cheese. I don't want to lube him up with alot of oily cheese.

When I try "sit," he tries to run away when I approach. "Stay" is not an option either.

If you all could just tell me your opinions of where I might start, maybe I can find the right thing to get him headed in the right direction. I don't think the Alpha male thing is a problem, and maybe it's too far to the other end. He knows I'm the boss, but he's acting like the dumb coward. I hate to put it that way, but that about sums it up.

He also has separation anxiety. He's improved in the last few days, but sleeping in his crate has been a task for him. He fears the crate. I want him to like the crate and see it as his sanctuary. I have thrown cheese into it and he will go get the cheese. It's plenty big. The largest you can buy I guess. It's for a dog up to 65-70 lbs. He can lie down without being cramped up. I do feed him in his crate. I want him to assocaite the crate with rewards and good things.

Our vet gave me a prescritption for ALPRAZOLAM to help with the anxiety, but I have yet to fill the prescription. I'm not much on medicating the dog into submission but it is an option available to me.

Sorry to ramble all, but I appreciate your input.

[kninebirddog]

Start like you would a puppy


as for his history...i like the rick smith method...he works through the issues a dog may have by starting from the moment with no emotions

do not try and coddle the dog as that will only further reinforce the behavior....just calmly quietly let the dog learn that bulking sulking etc are not ways out and that at the same time nothing bad is going to happen

most important is to be very consistant ...do not get angry or upset...

[Kiki's Mom]

Ditto. ALSO...make sure he can HEAR you. His coloring is odd enough and his attention span is at such a deficit from what you describe that I would suspect maybe a deaf dog type syndrome ( it may just be that he is seriously ADD and still in "puppy mode"). The other thought that comes to mind is that this dog has not bonded to humans at all ( a backyard/kennel dog situation in the past where the dog got little to no attention) and he has not learned to respond as would a puppy that had been raised in a household.

Disregard his age and size and go back to square one as if he were an 8 week old pup......

[bobman]

another tip is buy a roading harness to walk him on at first, thats what I use on dogs like this so they don't hurt themselves until they catch on.

Good job... with patience he will come around Knine advice is solid, as always

[Kmack]

I would start at the chaingang. He will learn to give to neck pressure and you will save your shoulder sockets...

[kninebirddog]

With the crate training...tough one here but...I am not opposed to getting them treats to go in...there are a variety of things you can do...
Short sessions etc BUT MOST IMPORTANT when approachingt he kennel only begin towards the kennel when he is in a calm state of mind

Sometimes many anxiety issues are created by someone coming to the rescue or a dog getting out of what they don't like or sometype of reward to the dog when they are in a Hyper state of mine

So only adavnce to the dog when he has settled when he begins to scratch and is excited stop until he settles YEs the first few times it will take some time for him to figure out when he is standing you advance and this also includes when you are there and you begin to unlock the crate door he gets dancy stop motion till he stops
then when you open the door be prepared to slam the door shut...if his nose is in the way ,,that is his fault not yours his nose or head was in the way cause if he was standing there the door closing wouldn't have gotten him do not let him dart out the door

again no frustration no anger LOT's and LOTS of patience till this becomes the new routine

I do the same thing when advancing towards a dog on the chain gang also....try to most the time...I do not want to be advancing to a dog jumping around like a mindless idiot in a hyper state of mind


another thing you can work on is helping him to stand there while you pet and touch him all over

when you go to start something with him be prepared to Take the time it takes....get something successful if you can get him to do it for a second build from there...and never push it to failure if something went great STOP THERE can't stress that one enough either
it is just as important for you as it is for the dog to quit on those Good notes and never be afraid to take a step back to end on a good note either

his history is history...time to create a new history and patterns

and the thing that has him where he is at and what will restruture for the future what you allow a dog to do you train a dog to do

[Firstdog]

Dogs are pack animals, and by always trying to be nice to the dog, it will think it is the alpha animal. I asked a similar question when I got my dog. She was a stray and never had any attachment the first few months. I set aside an hour every day to play with her. Being new I applied what I know about dogs to some exercises in "How to help hunting dogs train themselves" (or something like that) If you want more specifics, pm me.

Dogs don't maintain history like we do. Everytime they meet someone new, they start from sratch trying to figure out who is the boss. My wife's dog has never been hit in her life, and when I look at her the wrong way, she starts to shake.

I noticed something the other day. I have run into about 20 hunting dogs since dove season started. Everyone of them has been well behaved and balanced dogs. It takes about 2 minutes on average for the dogs to start playing. I don't believe it is because all hunting dogs are good natured. Now this is just the new guy's opinion, but I believe it is because the dogs are secure in their "owners" alpha status. They know who is in charge, and that person will take care of them.

My dog learned the most after she started to trust me. I think if you build that trust and alpha status, the training will start to happen.

As for the cats, I would place my hand right behind the jaw and lay her down. Then have the cats walk around her/lay on her/ eat out of her food dish. do this everytime your dog chases the cats. It will learn who the boss is fast. Since you are the one holding her down, you are viewed as the dominat one, not the cats. I had to do this Kuna thought she was going to push my son around. Took about three days of really paying attention to her actions.

[bobman]

Dont try to get much done right now just spend the first month or so just letting him adjust to his new surroundings. Keep him restrained crate lead kennel so he cannot get into trouble, dont allow him to be in the postion to chase the cats.

It takes dogs I train about 2-4 weeks to bond, relax, and settle down and those are normal dogs, so go slow until the bond is there and the dog has learned your hands are not something he has to fear. Spend that time picking a training regimen to study and learn then stick to it train just like its a pup.

Put a dummy collar with the points gorund down on the dog everytime you take it for a walk ect so thats behind you when serious traing starts let him where it while you train him on a check cord just like a pup then you can proceed with ecollar training to finish the process.

[MikeB]

No matter what his past was, don't feel sorry for him. I would highly recommend you tether him to YOU when you are home. You can control him from chasing the cats and start teach him to trust you. Watch your hand movements over his head. Make everything you do positive for now. Praise everything he does right and ignore the rest for now. Liverwurst may work for treats or string cheese. Cooked pork or beef liver could work too.

If he had a name when you got him, I would change it so there is no negetive to his old name. Very helpful with some dogs.

Start basic training slowly when he is hungry, before you feed him. Spend only 10 to 15 min. training for now. Keep it simple and positive and in a couple of weeks you will see if he has the desire to learn and progress. Make him want more.

Let us know how that works.

[Sharon]

No more training advice here. You've had excellent responses.

If it were me I would try using the sedative. Based on what you said to the vet, she must have felt it would help.
Anxiety is a painful life. The dog could be suffering more then you know. Nothing wrong with taking meds if you need it. If she had diabetes you would give her her meds.
The meds might help her to settle enough to be able to listen and learn - just like some kids .
Have you ever felt anxious, fearful, worried ? It's near impossible to listen, focus and learn.

[nj gsp]

Having rescued an older GSP, and adopted an older GSP, here's my advice for what it's worth.

Before you do anything, the dog needs to learn to trust you. You have to get the dog to bond with you. This does not happen overnight, but will take time. I would not start with anything that will stress the dog, as everything it is encountering now is new and stressful. If it did come from an abusive home, anything you may do to try to get it in line by force may be detrimental. Take the dog with you in the car. Let it sleep in your lap. Give it treats, and treat it with the utmost kindness. Lead breaking is essential, but it is important that the dog learn this on its own without associating the stress with you. Bill Tarrant recommended tying the dog to a staple nailed to the floor in a corner of your living room, and he also recommended the chain gang. But if you don't have a squad of dogs to help you, you'll have to tie the dog to something.

Read Tarrant's book on problem gun dogs, and it will tell you how to solve just about anything. What is a problem in a gun dog? Bill will tell you it's anything the dog does that you don't want it to. The dog breaks on the shot, and you don't mind, then it's not a problem. If the dog breaks on the shot and you don't want it to, well that's a problem.

After the dog has learned to trust you and is bonding with you, the next thing to do is obedience training: heel, whoa, come. I did it in that order, as each command naturally follows the previous one. Only after the dog has accepted you as the new alpha, has accepted your home, and has learned obedience would I start to introduce things like bird training. Which is not to say you shouldn't expose your dog to birds, but you should be building desire in the dog, so avoid any corrections until you have built the dog's faith in you and it knows you won't hurt it, and knows and understands that you are the best thing that ever happened to that dog.

Bill Tarrant will also tell you that there isn't one single problem a bird dog has that can't be fixed with birds. I believe that is true.

[bobman]

drugs dont solve mental problems they mask them I would use that course as a last result

[Equismith]

drugs dont solve mental problems they mask them I would use that course as a last result

I hear ya bobman.

I have not filled the script yet. I doubt I will.

He's bonding well. I think that's some of the reason for the crate anxiety. We're slowly making progress. He's becoming palyful and has taken to Libby quite well. He's becoming more acclimated.

I will not do any bird stuff for a while, nor have I done much bird stuff with Libby of late. My work schedule change dramatically last Dec and I have little time to get out. Plus, my truck broke down several months ago and I do not have a way to transport dirty field dogs to and from the training area.

Baby steps for now for sure.

Thanks everyone for the help.

Bud