Small intro (first post).
I live in NZ. I have spent 20 years hunting deer. Mainly Red deer. With success, there was a time when I did it for a job.
Recently I came into a dog. That is a mate didn't want it anymore. 2 year old German shorted haired pointer bitch. He had used it for hunting deer and ducks with some success. I haven't exactly got out of him how much success.
So I have this dog now. I have no interest in bird hunting. Which is a shame because this dog looks to be a very good bird dog. I live on a farm and it already nailed a chicken, a bantam and a thrush. Great. I am weaning it off birds now.
The dog is pretty steady for a GSP i.e not schizophrenic. It doesn't appear to have any formal training. It now has a good heal. A bullet proof stay and come. So its a start.
Okay. Intro over.
NZ bush is responsibly tight. Not like the nice woodland pictures I have seen in the US and videos on YouTube.
The dog (being a bird dog I guess) currently ranges out to about 100yards. This is not good for hunting deer in NZ. I would never see it and would be better off hunting by myself.
How can I retrain her to stay 10 to 20ft in front of me?
Any ideas welcome.
A deer dog range? How far?
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Ruffshooter
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Re: A deer dog range? How far?
I know nothing about deer dogs. Here we can only use them for tracking while on a leash. I would llike to ask a couple questions.
Is the dog just used for tracking?
Does the dog run the deer down?
Will you use the dog for blood tracking?
If you want the dog only about 10 to 20 feet away why do you need it? What is the advantage.
In some of the south and the west I believe there are deer dogs, however I think they run the deer.
Thanks,
Rick
Is the dog just used for tracking?
Does the dog run the deer down?
Will you use the dog for blood tracking?
If you want the dog only about 10 to 20 feet away why do you need it? What is the advantage.
In some of the south and the west I believe there are deer dogs, however I think they run the deer.
Thanks,
Rick
The best part of training is seeing the light come on in your little prot'eg'e.
Rick
Rick
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sikadog
Re: A deer dog range? How far?
Good Q's.
I figured you guys didn't use the dogs for actual hunting (only finding wounded deer) 'cause I never here anyone talking about it.
The easiest way to put it is the dog is used as an indicator. When used for deer. You may have heard of us kiwis using dogs for pigs. They are mainly dogs that will "bail" and "hold". Deer dogs as mentioned are used as indicators here (although Sambar deer will bail and not break).
So to answer each Q.
Yes. The dog is used for tracking. It wind scents.
That is you hunt into the wind. Pretty normal stuff. So you watch the dog to see if it is indicating or picking up a scent. As deer are rather smelly, they will pick this up easily. My nose is pretty good, I can smell them from about 100yards away. To train a dog for tracking we usually start off laying the training track with the wind behind us. This forces the dog to get its nose on the ground and track the trail not the scent of the animal being hunted.
No. The dog doesn't run the deer down. Undesirable. If using dogs for goat culling then yes. You usually have your finders (which find the goats) and then your bailers (which bail them, basically get to the far side of the mob and bark at them to hold them up from running away giving you time to get there and kill them (make sense?)).
Yes to the blood tracking. This would be the easiest part to of the training. If you can get a dog to track a human on hard surface you sure as darn can get one to track blood and deer scent in bush.
So in conclusion your NZ deer hunting dog hunts ahead of you just and picks up the deer scent on the wind. When it finds the deer it holds until you get a shot away.
Does any of that make sense?
Problem I see with a dog that has been used for birds is it will range to far ahead and you will have no idea where it is or what it is doing in the bush. There is no point calling "come in" all the time etc etc... as the deer will just run away.
I figured you guys didn't use the dogs for actual hunting (only finding wounded deer) 'cause I never here anyone talking about it.
The easiest way to put it is the dog is used as an indicator. When used for deer. You may have heard of us kiwis using dogs for pigs. They are mainly dogs that will "bail" and "hold". Deer dogs as mentioned are used as indicators here (although Sambar deer will bail and not break).
So to answer each Q.
Yes. The dog is used for tracking. It wind scents.
That is you hunt into the wind. Pretty normal stuff. So you watch the dog to see if it is indicating or picking up a scent. As deer are rather smelly, they will pick this up easily. My nose is pretty good, I can smell them from about 100yards away. To train a dog for tracking we usually start off laying the training track with the wind behind us. This forces the dog to get its nose on the ground and track the trail not the scent of the animal being hunted.
No. The dog doesn't run the deer down. Undesirable. If using dogs for goat culling then yes. You usually have your finders (which find the goats) and then your bailers (which bail them, basically get to the far side of the mob and bark at them to hold them up from running away giving you time to get there and kill them (make sense?)).
Yes to the blood tracking. This would be the easiest part to of the training. If you can get a dog to track a human on hard surface you sure as darn can get one to track blood and deer scent in bush.
So in conclusion your NZ deer hunting dog hunts ahead of you just and picks up the deer scent on the wind. When it finds the deer it holds until you get a shot away.
Does any of that make sense?
Problem I see with a dog that has been used for birds is it will range to far ahead and you will have no idea where it is or what it is doing in the bush. There is no point calling "come in" all the time etc etc... as the deer will just run away.
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Ruffshooter
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Re: A deer dog range? How far?
Thanks Sikadog,
We have a lot of dogs that are used for bear, racoon, hogs, coyotes etc. in which the dog usually has on a tracking collar and most of these dogs "bay" sound off when running the animal. They are usually run in packs of three or more usually more. Once they have treed the coons or bear or cornered a bear, hog and coyotes or the will bay and hold the animal until the hunter gets there. Many of these hunters use tracking collars on the dogs as well. Each of these dogs covers a lot of ground. Generally the dog will start sounding off as the hunter drives down a road when it picks up scent or the hunter scouts an area as you would normally do and start from a game trail or new track.
We also have rabbit dogs, usually beagles run in packs and the dogs circle the rabbits back to the hunter. Squirrel dogs also usually the little terriers or mixes Kers (sp) Jack russles etc.
When in Kansas a few years back I met a guy broke down in an old Ford truck with a plywood box on the back. There were six dogs in the back with there heads sticking out the top. They were deer hounds, Irish wolf hounds mixed with afgans and some other types of these site hounds. He used them for Coyote hunting. Again he would drive down the road and when dogs would start sounding he would let them loose to run the coyote until it stopped to fight, then he would go out and finish the job. He had one dog that had a broken jaw that decided to fight with the coyote.
I was thinking some of what you mention how you would use this dog. This probally won't help but may spark an idea for you.
You need to give the dog a reason to stay close. Positive or negative reinforcement or combination of both. I think both. With flushers which stay within 25 to 30 yards ideally it is a matter of handling drills and birds always being close and of course breeding. I don't know if you could set up a scent trail and knick the dog with an e collar each time it gets to far ahead? You would need to do prepatory work first. Controlling the range at home during walks and set ups. Reading or getting a video on how to train with an ecollar would help teach you how to do this better than what I am saying. Either way it will be a lot of work and you may be better off going bird hunting with this dog and getting a different dog for your dear. Who knows you may get hooked when you see that dog go on point. I usebeeper collars to find my pointing dogs in the thick woods up hear.
good luck
Rick
We have a lot of dogs that are used for bear, racoon, hogs, coyotes etc. in which the dog usually has on a tracking collar and most of these dogs "bay" sound off when running the animal. They are usually run in packs of three or more usually more. Once they have treed the coons or bear or cornered a bear, hog and coyotes or the will bay and hold the animal until the hunter gets there. Many of these hunters use tracking collars on the dogs as well. Each of these dogs covers a lot of ground. Generally the dog will start sounding off as the hunter drives down a road when it picks up scent or the hunter scouts an area as you would normally do and start from a game trail or new track.
We also have rabbit dogs, usually beagles run in packs and the dogs circle the rabbits back to the hunter. Squirrel dogs also usually the little terriers or mixes Kers (sp) Jack russles etc.
When in Kansas a few years back I met a guy broke down in an old Ford truck with a plywood box on the back. There were six dogs in the back with there heads sticking out the top. They were deer hounds, Irish wolf hounds mixed with afgans and some other types of these site hounds. He used them for Coyote hunting. Again he would drive down the road and when dogs would start sounding he would let them loose to run the coyote until it stopped to fight, then he would go out and finish the job. He had one dog that had a broken jaw that decided to fight with the coyote.
I was thinking some of what you mention how you would use this dog. This probally won't help but may spark an idea for you.
You need to give the dog a reason to stay close. Positive or negative reinforcement or combination of both. I think both. With flushers which stay within 25 to 30 yards ideally it is a matter of handling drills and birds always being close and of course breeding. I don't know if you could set up a scent trail and knick the dog with an e collar each time it gets to far ahead? You would need to do prepatory work first. Controlling the range at home during walks and set ups. Reading or getting a video on how to train with an ecollar would help teach you how to do this better than what I am saying. Either way it will be a lot of work and you may be better off going bird hunting with this dog and getting a different dog for your dear. Who knows you may get hooked when you see that dog go on point. I usebeeper collars to find my pointing dogs in the thick woods up hear.
good luck
Rick
The best part of training is seeing the light come on in your little prot'eg'e.
Rick
Rick
Re: A deer dog range? How far?
Put a long leash on her. Hang on to it. About 10 years of that should do it.sikadog wrote: How can I retrain her to stay 10 to 20ft in front of me?
Any ideas welcome.
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sikadog
Re: A deer dog range? How far?
Talked to mate last night on phone (whom I got the dog off). He says its been used more for deer the birds anyway. Amazing how well she goes on birds then with no real training...haha..
I have a tracking harness. I tried this the other day with a 20ft lead. I noticed after a while when I took the lead off (or simply let it go) the dog wouldnt go more than 10ft away and kept looking back at me. As soon as I took it off and said "way-you-go" (which is my general command for all finished go and have a play)... she ranged out to about 100yds again. So thats a start i.e When harness is on, its business time.
I am going to train her to track (I will probably get a deer tail and use it as a toy). This will be done on the harness and lead. Considering she spends most of her time with her nose on the ground I cant see this being that hard. My mate said he dragged some deer skin all over the farm (about 600m track all over theplace i.e not straight lining) and hid the skin in some rubbish. He let the dog off near the start of the track and basically let her at it. She found the skin no problem. Pretty rudimentary stuff but not bad for a start. He also said the dog wind scented a couple of deer the other day and basically stood there and looked at them until he walked over and shot them (deer were about 50yds away on the edge of the bush). So she has got the basics.
Ive heard plenty of guys here in NZ say you can have a deer and bird dog in one. Lots of them suggest the GSP. Pure deer hunters often go for the Visler. My mates Visler stalks deer, creeping in until she sights the deer then she stops and points. Its pretty good to watch.
As yet the dog has no formal retrieve, so I am going to work on that next. She shows no drive at the moment to play with a toy so once I get that sorted I will be away.
Mate also mentioned the dog runs down wounded deer and grabs onto their back leg. This usually makes the deer sit down rather fast as it hit the main nerves etc in the leg muscle. Her brother (that is used only as a deer dog and runs with the pig dogs) will actually grab deer by the throat and not let go...pretty hard stuff for a GSP.
I think I'm on the right track. If she still points birds by the time im finished, bonus... there are plenty of pheasants around the farm here.
Cheers for the tips so far. I have some ideas.
I have a tracking harness. I tried this the other day with a 20ft lead. I noticed after a while when I took the lead off (or simply let it go) the dog wouldnt go more than 10ft away and kept looking back at me. As soon as I took it off and said "way-you-go" (which is my general command for all finished go and have a play)... she ranged out to about 100yds again. So thats a start i.e When harness is on, its business time.
I am going to train her to track (I will probably get a deer tail and use it as a toy). This will be done on the harness and lead. Considering she spends most of her time with her nose on the ground I cant see this being that hard. My mate said he dragged some deer skin all over the farm (about 600m track all over theplace i.e not straight lining) and hid the skin in some rubbish. He let the dog off near the start of the track and basically let her at it. She found the skin no problem. Pretty rudimentary stuff but not bad for a start. He also said the dog wind scented a couple of deer the other day and basically stood there and looked at them until he walked over and shot them (deer were about 50yds away on the edge of the bush). So she has got the basics.
Ive heard plenty of guys here in NZ say you can have a deer and bird dog in one. Lots of them suggest the GSP. Pure deer hunters often go for the Visler. My mates Visler stalks deer, creeping in until she sights the deer then she stops and points. Its pretty good to watch.
As yet the dog has no formal retrieve, so I am going to work on that next. She shows no drive at the moment to play with a toy so once I get that sorted I will be away.
Mate also mentioned the dog runs down wounded deer and grabs onto their back leg. This usually makes the deer sit down rather fast as it hit the main nerves etc in the leg muscle. Her brother (that is used only as a deer dog and runs with the pig dogs) will actually grab deer by the throat and not let go...pretty hard stuff for a GSP.
I think I'm on the right track. If she still points birds by the time im finished, bonus... there are plenty of pheasants around the farm here.
Cheers for the tips so far. I have some ideas.
Re: A deer dog range? How far?
dogging deer has really died out...at least here in the South (GA) there is just isn't large enough land in contiguous tracks to have the room to run deer. The way it was done was the shooters would be in certain spots along roads or fields and the dogs usually a beagle or a hound would run the deer just like rabbit hunting.... It is fun but its not very common anymore in the States.
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sikadog
Re: A deer dog range? How far?
Red deer and sika deer wont bail for dogs. They run to fast for starters. Stags might make the mistake of having a go at a dog unaware that the hunter is catching up, but not often... and IMHO it doesn't really constitute hunting.luke0927 wrote:dogging deer has really died out...at least here in the South (GA) there is just isn't large enough land in contiguous tracks to have the room to run deer. The way it was done was the shooters would be in certain spots along roads or fields and the dogs usually a beagle or a hound would run the deer just like rabbit hunting.... It is fun but its not very common anymore in the States.
Sambar deer were hunted out in certain areas using dogs because they would bail a easily and stand there giving the hunter all the time in the world to walk up and shoot them. I believe Rusa deer bail nicely as well, not sure on that one.
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Ruffshooter
- GDF Junkie
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Re: A deer dog range? How far?
Keep us posted. I would love to hear how this all works out for you and bring a cammera to photo that dog on point on a deer. Pretty neat.
Thanks
Rick
Thanks
Rick
The best part of training is seeing the light come on in your little prot'eg'e.
Rick
Rick
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sikadog
Re: A deer dog range? How far?
Took her out for her first day at work with me.
All went well. Stayed in about 20ft... or at the heel. Sort of walks about 20ft out in front of me then returns, walks around behind me then back out again. Until she starts to wind something interesting... then she starts to walk slowly.
Well, we got onto a couple of billy goats anyway.
Goats are pretty smelly so she picked then up (I could smell them also after a short while). She was on her hind legs indicating down through this steep section or "face". She didnt break when I started shooting which is good.
We got onto a boar (pig) before this im pretty sure. Few marks and some sign and she started winding down towards this very steep bluff face. Didnt let her go down there and we walked away. Her brother got smashed up by a big pig the week before and I didnt want her going the same way. Plus, its to step to carry a big pig out of.
Im not going to get into the blood tracking. No one in NZ does it. Its just not the thing here. We hunt with our dogs, and they usually she which ones get hit. Just a different style of hunting.
Was talking to a mate who uses a Vizsla as an indicator... his dog stalks deer and he follows behind... sometimes on all fours also. When she gets a visuals she holds point and locks in. Very cool to watch.
All went well. Stayed in about 20ft... or at the heel. Sort of walks about 20ft out in front of me then returns, walks around behind me then back out again. Until she starts to wind something interesting... then she starts to walk slowly.
Well, we got onto a couple of billy goats anyway.
Goats are pretty smelly so she picked then up (I could smell them also after a short while). She was on her hind legs indicating down through this steep section or "face". She didnt break when I started shooting which is good.
We got onto a boar (pig) before this im pretty sure. Few marks and some sign and she started winding down towards this very steep bluff face. Didnt let her go down there and we walked away. Her brother got smashed up by a big pig the week before and I didnt want her going the same way. Plus, its to step to carry a big pig out of.
Im not going to get into the blood tracking. No one in NZ does it. Its just not the thing here. We hunt with our dogs, and they usually she which ones get hit. Just a different style of hunting.
Was talking to a mate who uses a Vizsla as an indicator... his dog stalks deer and he follows behind... sometimes on all fours also. When she gets a visuals she holds point and locks in. Very cool to watch.
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Ruffshooter
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Re: A deer dog range? How far?
Sounds like things are going great. Deer dog in the making. Great photos, nice rifle, good kill.
Thanks for the update and photo's. Good luck with the future hunts.
Rick
Thanks for the update and photo's. Good luck with the future hunts.
Rick
The best part of training is seeing the light come on in your little prot'eg'e.
Rick
Rick
Re: A deer dog range? How far?
I would hesitate to use the e-collar. Dog might not know that it's for moving out too far. He might think it means you don't want him to track. Sounds like the tracking harness is the way to go. Enjoy.
" We are more than our gender, skin color, class, sexuality or age; we are unlimited potential, and can not be defined by one label." quote A. Bartlett
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sikadog
Re: A deer dog range? How far?
Cheers. I will be back in that block next week. I actually lost her for 10 minutes in another spot on the same day. She walked off this track we were walking and I thought she was just in the bush mucking about. After 20sec I gave her a call and got no reply. I ended up shouting for her to come back - nothing. In the end I let off a shot, 10minutes later a dog comes running back up the track. I wasn't happy, but she came back... at least. I have a feeling she got onto a deer and may have chased it. My own fault partly for letting her out of my sight. It was our first outing after all. I think she will come on fine once she knows how we work.