Gun Dog Forum

I've gotten some great information from you guys since I joined up, but I have to tap the resource again (as the search option is not really giving me the desired results).

Problem: I bird hunt (that's not the problem), but my girlfriend doesn't. We got Emma together, and we work with her together, although separately sometimes. My girlfriend (very patient) doesn't seem to enjoy Emma putting her nose to the ground on walks with the leash and dragging her for the entire walk. I'm strong enough that I don't mind, and I've got callused hands to prevent any rope burns from the check cord.

What is the best (in your opinion) device to nip this in the bud? I'm thinking a choke chain wouldn't work since she likes to choke herself against the leash anyway.

An aside question for my purpose is: will there be any downside to training a dog to walk like a city leash dog and obey at all times? I almost kind of like it when she has her nose down when we're walking around the scrub grass lands around our house.

Thanks for any advice, the girlfriend is getting pretty frustrated and I want this experience to stay positive
Jeff

Im dead new at this but shouldnt we be training our dogs to heel? I know that its a complete pain in the tail when they try to pull you the whole walk. IF my dog doesnt learn to heel well i probly wont even try to hunt him! In my mind he should heel when told until released to go out and do his sniffing? Im not even close to being past a beginner here just sharing my thoughts, and looking for feedback. Just getting started though i feel like Come , heel, and whoa are all important for safety also wether we are in the country city or whereever.

-Randy

Teach Heel; I use a choke collar but I think most would recomend a pinch collar. It's all in how you use it. They won't contiually pull and choke on it if you are doing it right and not letting them. It's just a quick snap of the collar and giving the heel command at the same time. Do this while making sudden turns when the dog starts to get ahead of your leg. I'm right handed and was taught to keep the dog on my left and the lead in my right hand. This makes a immediate and smooth correction with a snap of the wrist. Seems simple but it is also important to have the collar on correctly. I like to start with right turns, seems a little easier to the dog. Then left. When turning into the dog don't stop for them. If they are in the way just walk through them. Or give a shove with your knee keeping them in position on your left (or right if your left handed). Then work on starting and stopping. Also work on changes of pace. If they start lagging behind start jogging.

After a good long while of this you might not even have to make a full correction. There is a picture of Sadie Marie on another post with her choke collar on. You might notice that it is rather large for her. This is because she heels rather well most of the time and will respond at just the sound of the chain running threw the ring. So I put a size too big collar on her and now the flick of the wrist just make the collar jingle without the full correction of it tightening around her neck. If I find her in a stubborn mood then i'll choke up on it a bit where it will tighten with the flick of my wrist. I hope I explained it well. It really isn't very hard to teach. Just takes some time and patience. And like most other training 10 minutes a day will get you alot further than an hour once a week.

IMO It won't matter as far as hunting. And in many instances will be helpful. especially when coming out of a field and onto a road I'll have her heel. It is a command and if not commanded she will be out hunting.

Hope I helped, any questions just ask. I went ahead and added the photo hear.

Also thought I'd add, If you want to go for walks on checkcord without the structure of heel then there is another option.
Don't use choke/pinch collar just a flat collar and when she hits the end of the checkcord say her name and give it a tug at the same time. Or tug and two toots on a whistle. At the same time as this turn and walk in an opposing direction. To keep a forward momentum turn at 45 degree angle to the direction your going. Eventually she will learn to turn/change direction when you say her name or toot twice on the whistle.

There's a good thread a couple down on teaching "heel".

For your girlfriend, just teach the dog to heel. Every well trained hunting dog should heel. It will not affect their field range at all and is mighty handy.

I let mine pull me for the conditioning it offers them. I put a pulling harness on the dog, put a six foot leash on them, and let them pull.

Question: Do you really want your dog to heal or do you just want it to stop pulling?
If you want it to heal, I would use the turning everytime it starts tugging.
If you just want it to stop tugging, buy a halty type collar for it to wear. Your dog will stop pulling when it is wearing this. Your local pet store will have one.

The Halti collar will not train the dog it will simply give control to smaller/weaker people over an untrained dog.

It is entirely possible for a dog to learn to walk nicely at heel and then pull like the "bleep" when appropriate. A dog that won't pull at all is not much good when you want to do resistance training for conditioning. A dog that won't walk quietly at heel is not much good when you want to get out for a walk with your dog. A dog that pulls all over everywhere with its nose to the ground is not much use for either. Teach the dog to heel.

I agree that teaching the dog to heel is the best long term solution. Lots of ways to get that done. Pick one and do it.

One short term solution you can use, in the meantime is to take the lead which is attached to the collar, run it back to the dog's flank and then loop it around the waist and back through the rope making a half hitch around the dog's waist. When the dog pulls, the half hitch tightens around the dogs waist and, well they don't like that very much, so they quit pulling.

RayG

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I couldn't be more sold on The Wonder Lead by Delmar Smith. My last dog fought the choke chain and the lead looped around the flank....but the Wonder Lead reeled him right in in very short order.

Pinch collar is what my wife had to use on our Vizsla. I dont take them long to figure it out. She walks him 3-4 miles 2 or 3 times a week. She only has to get the collar back out every now and then as a refresher.

RayGubernat wrote:I agree that teaching the dog to heel is the best long term solution. Lots of ways to get that done. Pick one and do it.

One short term solution you can use, in the meantime is to take the lead which is attached to the collar, run it back to the dog's flank and then loop it around the waist and back through the rope making a half hitch around the dog's waist. When the dog pulls, the half hitch tightens around the dogs waist and, well they don't like that very much, so they quit pulling.

RayG

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That actually seemed to help my girlfriend out this morning quite a bit. Now the more permanent step...
So pinch or choke? Sounds like mixed reviews, and also a few people have made it clear that they let their dog walk city style, but there are others that would just prefer the dog maintain a heel position on walks? I err on the side of obedience but my girlfriend would like to have Emma be able to walk in front, just not drag her.

Will wrote:I couldn't be more sold on The Wonder Lead by Delmar Smith. My last dog fought the choke chain and the lead looped around the flank....but the Wonder Lead reeled him right in in very short order.

Oh and also I didn't ignore this suggestion, I looked at them online, but couldn't figure out from the picture and the brief description how the heck it works

Gonna go take her for a walk at the game refuge and let her do whatever she wants. Too much obedience is keeping her from getting any good exercise!

Benny wrote: That actually seemed to help my girlfriend out this morning quite a bit. Now the more permanent step...
So pinch or choke? Sounds like mixed reviews, and also a few people have made it clear that they let their dog walk city style, but there are others that would just prefer the dog maintain a heel position on walks? I err on the side of obedience but my girlfriend would like to have Emma be able to walk in front, just not drag her.

Benny, Benny, Benny, who is going to wear the pants in that relationship? She has you in panties all ready. It's your hunting dog. You tell her how the dog is going to be handled. Stand your ground and be a man. Unless she cuts you off, then let the "bleep" dog walk where it wants.

I don't know how old your pup is or how my course might work with an older one. But I NEVER let my pups make any progress while pulling on a lead until they're grown, in harness and given the "road" command. And keeping them from pulling a lead tight, while still enjoying the freedoms of a loose lead offers when they're not specifically told to "heel," has been nearly as simple as that: don't pull, and we can move; pull, and we're not going anywhere. Probably requires more real discipline on my part than the pups', but we also add cues both verbal "Ut!" ("stop what you're doing") and physical in the form of a sharp little tug of our own on a lead that's been pulled tight to help remind Pup of why we've stopped.

Though I've never used a pinch collar, I'd think that would be the tool (rather than a choker) to add to the above to break the pulling pattern in an older pup with a well-established habit. But, again, the real trick would be for you and your gal to break your own habits of letting Pup drag you around. Your behavior is what really created the problem, not Pup's...

I would prefer a pinch or prong collar to a choker collar. My reasoning is that first, I can get the same response form the dog with less pressure because the pinch or prong collar provides the "bite". Second, both the pinch and prong collars will only get so tight before they run up agains their stops. The pinch collars i have seen are pretty wide, on the order of 2" or more so that alone would make it unlikely to cause injury. A choker collar is very narrow and has no stop and can indeed permanently injure a dog, in and about the windpipe.

I use a version of the Smith "Wonder lead " for my heel/whoa training and I find that my guys give to it relatively quickly. I have not used it on very many "unconditioned"adult dogs, since I start mine with it as pups. However, the few that I have used it on for the first time as adults seemed to submit to it rather quickly with the exception of one fairly stubborn Weimaraner. He was a real brickhead about it.

RayG

RayGubernat wrote:I would prefer a pinch or prong collar to a choker collar. My reasoning is that first, I can get the same response form the dog with less pressure because the pinch or prong collar provides the "bite". Second, both the pinch and prong collars will only get so tight before they run up agains their stops. The pinch collars i have seen are pretty wide, on the order of 2" or more so that alone would make it unlikely to cause injury. A choker collar is very narrow and has no stop and can indeed permanently injure a dog, in and about the windpipe.

I use a version of the Smith "Wonder lead " for my heel/whoa training and I find that my guys give to it relatively quickly. I have not used it on very many "unconditioned"adult dogs, since I start mine with it as pups. However, the few that I have used it on for the first time as adults seemed to submit to it rather quickly with the exception of one fairly stubborn Weimaraner. He was a real brickhead about it.

RayG

I agree with Ray on this. I would never use a choke collar. I use Dave Walker's training collar. Every dog that I have used it on has been easy to work with.

I used the pinch collar, found the choke and proper obedience drills much more effective. Doing Squirt and Bodie right now and no fighting with it. Take an obedience course from someone that does just obedience. The choke collar is like any other training aide, it can be used wrong by anyone. The one thing I'm not insistent about in obedience with my dogs now is absolute proper placement and I don't care if they sit or stand when we stop. Both these dogs prefer to stand and I let them. So giving a whoa command to stop was the way to go. Had they decided to sit, I'd have used the sit command. Also when I leave them to do a recall or a finish I now use whoa instead of stay. If I don't give a command and just start walking, I expect them to walk with me. A lot different than an obedience trial dog but the basic's are the same.

Don wrote:I used the pinch collar, found the choke and proper obedience drills much more effective. Doing Squirt and Bodie right now and no fighting with it. Take an obedience course from someone that does just obedience. The choke collar is like any other training aide, it can be used wrong by anyone. The one thing I'm not insistent about in obedience with my dogs now is absolute proper placement and I don't care if they sit or stand when we stop. Both these dogs prefer to stand and I let them. So giving a whoa command to stop was the way to go. Had they decided to sit, I'd have used the sit command. Also when I leave them to do a recall or a finish I now use whoa instead of stay. If I don't give a command and just start walking, I expect them to walk with me. A lot different than an obedience trial dog but the basic's are the same.

Hmmm...you wouldn't be Mr. Fischer would you? (Antelope, Oregon?) My favorite iFish resource

Don wrote:I used the pinch collar, found the choke and proper obedience drills much more effective. Doing Squirt and Bodie right now and no fighting with it. Take an obedience course from someone that does just obedience. The choke collar is like any other training aide, it can be used wrong by anyone. The one thing I'm not insistent about in obedience with my dogs now is absolute proper placement and I don't care if they sit or stand when we stop. Both these dogs prefer to stand and I let them. So giving a whoa command to stop was the way to go. Had they decided to sit, I'd have used the sit command. Also when I leave them to do a recall or a finish I now use whoa instead of stay. If I don't give a command and just start walking, I expect them to walk with me. A lot different than an obedience trial dog but the basic's are the same.

Agree. On my first gundog, but have lots of obedience years behind me. I've never used anything but a choke collar during obedience training, but am always open to ideas. I've never seen a dog injured by one...and have a feeling it would be someone with heavy hands and improper usage doing the damage. But maybe the safer side for some, would be choosing a different collar. Our gsp looses some manners heeling in the field, and I have used a flank hitch quite successfully in stopping any pulling. She knows how to sit, and I have her do it on a regular basis (with occasional treats when she recalls indoors from potty time. I don't have her sit during heeling or fieldwork.......yet. I had read mixed thoughts about teaching pointing dogs to sit, so we figure we'll save that for later. It shouldn't be too hard (I hope) to incorporate it back in later for obedience competition. I also threw the command "Stay" out of my old training toolbox and use "Whoa" in its place. I don't let my dogs walk forward of heel position, when we are doing on leash heeling. My dogs have always had a tendancy to want to be out front as it is, so I don't want to encourage that........or confuse the young one. My goal is a good off-leash heel, so I can't let 'em get away with much in the on-leash version.

The Smith wonder lead worked great with my dog.... she learned really fast to fall into step. She walks beside me all the time. She goes like heck's bells when we hit the field. I don't think her walking with me in town affected her hunting at all..

Benny, the Smith Wonderlead/Piggin string would be a great start to teach your dog heeling manners. Piggin strings can be found on line for up to half the price of a wonder lead in different colors,sizes and lays. Cactus Ropes sell piggin strings for about $13.

Bob

You mean like a lariat/lasso, I actually have one. Is that all that wonder lead thing is? No special pinch or such and such?

I think the stiffness of my calf rope is probably too much for Emma since her neck is so "bleep" skinny...thing would spring right open and she could walk her whole body through

THe "stop" on a command lead is the key to keep it from springing open so wide that the dogs head comes out of it. But the "springing open" does have a purpose. You cue the dog with the lead and the lead tightens on the neck and releases. Hence instead of a constant pressure it is pressure, release. Dog complies (walks at heel) no pressure, the dog veres away get's a cue to come back into compliance and release. Repeat as needed.

I have never seen the wonder lead other than photo's on Rick's site. It looks to me much like the show lead used to show dogs but much stouter and it pop's open to loosen itself when the dog quits pulling. If that's right, I can't see a thing much different than a chock chain.

The chain is a lot harsher and applies pressure to the throat. If the command lead is positioned correctly and applied as it's meant to be applied the pressure is right behind the ear(in the groove) and does not potentially damage the throat as the chain will. Also most people I've seen use a choke chain apply pressure in an upward motion increasing the severity of pressure on the dogs throat. The command lead, used as it is intended to work, applies pressure from the side pulling the dog into the handler and is less likely to do damage or "choke" the dog.

Benny wrote:You mean like a lariat/lasso, I actually have one. Is that all that wonder lead thing is? No special pinch or such and such?

I think the stiffness of my calf rope is probably too much for Emma since her neck is so "bleep" skinny...thing would spring right open and she could walk her whole body through

No, not the lariat, it is the "piggin string", used to tie the feet of roped calves. Shorter, thinner and stiffer than a lariat.

Hmmm, well I'm actually considering a prong or pinch collar at this point so that she learns quickly on the leash. Is the pinch the same as the prong or is this a different device all together? I really do think without some sort of stopping device she would end up ringing her own neck, especially if she saw a bird or bunny. I have the e-collar for the bunnies, but I don't want to even try it for any other training. I can't remember if I've mentioned already, but she's no pup. 52-54 lb's of pure stubborn

The prong collar and the pinch collar are not the same thing. All these collars are intended to do the same thing - provide enough deterrence that the dog will desist in trying to fight against them. None of them are ever intended to be used with continuous pressure on the dog - if the dog is leaning in to the collar you are not using it right. Used properly the choke chain, pinch collar, prong collar, wonder lead, e-collar, flat collar, etc. etc. are humane and effective training aids. Used improperly they are completely ineffective and can be inhumane.

slistoe wrote:The prong collar and the pinch collar are not the same thing.

argh, so I'm googleing prong and pinch and I swear they look the same. Perhaps all these main stream pet stores just don't have there stuff straight?
I've watched a few video's and the prong collar seems to be a pretty useful tool if like you said, used properly and not to forcefully turn or direct the dog. We would like to try it, but I just can't reach consensus on two things:
1. prong is not pinch then?
2. prong should be loose/prong should be high up on the neck and snug

Benny wrote:Hmmm, well I'm actually considering a prong or pinch collar at this point so that she learns quickly on the leash. Is the pinch the same as the prong or is this a different device all together? I really do think without some sort of stopping device she would end up ringing her own neck, especially if she saw a bird or bunny. I have the e-collar for the bunnies, but I don't want to even try it for any other training. I can't remember if I've mentioned already, but she's no pup. 52-54 lb's of pure stubborn

Benny, I hope you caught this.

slistoe wrote:None of them are ever intended to be used with continuous pressure on the dog - if the dog is leaning in to the collar you are not using it right. Used properly the choke chain, pinch collar, prong collar, wonder lead, e-collar, flat collar, etc. etc. are humane and effective training aids. Used improperly they are completely ineffective and can be inhumane.

I believe that there is alot of good info on heel buried in these forums. If you're not understanding how to teach heel, or at least teach heel without continuous pressure please, for your dogs sake, ask as many specific questions as you can. It's easy for me to picture it because i've done it before. But you have to be able to picture it, not me. I can understand how it would be hard to picture if you haven't seen it before. If you still can't see it after running out of questions, pick up you're local phone book and call an obediance pro close to you. Some give group lessons. Go watch. It's a great way to see it applied if they are working on heel the day you watch. Might even think about enrolling.

You're right. Not everyone is using the terms as I understood them.

Pinch Collar - http://www.tbicatalog.com/TBICatalog2/c ... ollar.html
Prong Collar - http://www.tbicatalog.com/TBICatalog2/c ... ollar.html

Bennie,
My two coppers, a leather blunt studded pinch collar can also be used in steadiness training. You mentioned you have an e-collar, why not use it for heeling? Put your dog on a short lead and when he starts pulling softly command heel and at the same time apply continious e-pressure at a level that will get his attention without vocalizing & pull him into a heel. When he gets to your side in the heeling position let off the e-collar & lead pressure. Do this in a standing position until he knows what he is supposed to do when he hears heel. When you get him through this start walking with him heeling at your side. When he moves out of heel the first few times command heel, e-pressure and pull him in letting off pressure with your lead and e-collar when he gets to heel. With enough reps which depends on you and your dog, all you will have to do when walking at heel is to use e-pressure without saying heel, remembering once they know what you want one command is all it must take.

Teach the command then introduce the e-collar.

Don wrote:Teach the command then introduce the e-collar.

I think I would have to agree with this, as I've been told many times there's no point in putting an e-collar on a dog if it doesn't know what to expect. She hasn't been nicked once yet as we've not had any problems in the field that can't be verbally corrected. I think starting to nick her on a casual walk could be a bugger.

As for the continuous pressure from the collar, I did watch several video's and have been emailing between behaviorists/trainers who've given some good advice. I think the prong will take time, and I doubt we'll make it more than half a block on the first walk, but its worth a try.

Short sessions are good but I would suggest a field or open area over a sidewalk. You want to be able to change directions on the pup so it becomes aware of and anticipates your movement right or left when at heel.

Benny wrote: I think the prong will take time, and I doubt we'll make it more than half a block on the first walk, but its worth a try.

Why would you start on a walk around the block. Start in your living room or back yard. When the dog has it figured out what you want then move to the freedom and distractions of the walk around the block.

Benny,

I believe you should be seeking advice or better yet train with pro or solid ameature bird dog trainers in your area. If your intentions are to someday use an e-collar your dog needs to become conditioned to it and what better way to condition than here, kennel & heel. Today's better e-collars not only can enforce commands taught in the traditional way but they are also used to teach with and without checkcord use. When training In the back yard or in the field let the birds do the talking.

Vom Britt wrote:Benny,

I believe you should be seeking advice or better yet train with pro or solid ameature bird dog trainers in your area. If your intentions are to someday use an e-collar your dog needs to become conditioned to it and what better way to condition than here, kennel & heel. Today's better e-collars not only can enforce commands taught in the traditional way but they are also used to teach with and without checkcord use. When training In the back yard or in the field let the birds do the talking.

Whoa! The only thing you can teach with the e-collar is avoidence training. As in snake proofing, deer proofing, porcupine, ect. Train first then overlay the collar.

Don wrote:

Vom Britt wrote:Benny,

I believe you should be seeking advice or better yet train with pro or solid ameature bird dog trainers in your area. If your intentions are to someday use an e-collar your dog needs to become conditioned to it and what better way to condition than here, kennel & heel. Today's better e-collars not only can enforce commands taught in the traditional way but they are also used to teach with and without checkcord use. When training In the back yard or in the field let the birds do the talking.

Whoa! The only thing you can teach with the e-collar is avoidence training. As in snake proofing, deer proofing, porcupine, ect. Train first then overlay the collar.

Sorry Don, but the e-collar can be used to train. I don't do it this way, but understand the concept and the next time I set out to train a retriever I will definitely use it that way.

An example http://www.dobbsdogs.com/library/obedie ... 2ndac.html

You would have a hard time teaching me that concept. What is it, just start nicing till the dog does what you want? This will be a totally foreign idea to me.

From http://www.dobbsdogs.com/library/obedie ... 2ndac.html

this is nit picking but it sure sounds like they are using the check-cord. Maybe not to teach the whole command, but to help the dog understand what it is supposed to do and how to turn off the stimualation. Not so different, just abbreviated.

"It's best to use a long line and a helper at first, to guide the dog away from you and back onto the platform. If you don't have a helper, you can run the line around a post and back to you"

edit: Just my opinion, but I don't see the e-collar as a effecient means of teaching heel. Once the dog already knows it introduce the e-collar stimulation as a means to correct off-lead heel, sure. To actually teach it though??? It can probably be done, Someone probably has . I just don't see it as being easier for handler or dog, or a better or more effecient way.

Don, there is little "nicking" involved - low level continuous stimulation is used which the dog turns off with a proper response. Not at all unlike the use of a pinch/prong/choke/flat collar.

Yes, a CC is used to guide the dog into the proper behavior just as in any other method of training, but the "pressure" to adapt/modify behavior is from the e-collar, not the flat/prong/pinch/choke collar.

Anyway, just pointing out that it is a viable method of training since it is completely unfamiliar to most people in the pointing dog world. That is why the "Upland" models of e-collars differ from the "Retriever" model with Tri-Tronics.