sit or not

[springpoint]

I don't have a dog but i am looking at getting one in the spring. I've had just family dogs over the years and one of the first thing we teach them is sit, but i read that you shouldn't teach pointing dogs sit, why is that?

thanks

[Dave Quindt]

The first command a dog is taught (or at least taught using some pressure) becomes the "default" response. Pup learns that sitting will make you happy, and will start sitting at all sort of times. You teach pup sit by popping the leash, or slapping his butt, if he doesn't sit; he learns that sitting makes the pressure go away. You get angry about something, pup doesn't understand why you are angry so the pup goes to the "sure thing" and sits.

Comes time for that pup to start training, and in the training process the pup is put under some amount of normal training pressure. Pup gets confused (they all do at some point) and goes back to the one thing that he KNOWS will work; he sits.

So you end up with a dog that sits during the flush of the bird, or when the shot bird hits the ground, or at any of the other half-dozen critical points in a training program where pressure has to be applied to the dog.

Many well-bred pups of the major pointing breeds could be taught sit and if trained by a knowledgeable pro or amateur those dogs would have NO problem sitting in the field. The problem is a fair % of pups from major breeds, and a high % of the lesser breeds (where point is almost always a problem) will have problems with sitting in the field during training.

The issue is not that every dog will have a problem; the issue is that the ones that do have a problem, have HUGE problems. Especially if the dog is going to be a test/trial dog of any kind; if the dog sits in the field he is at a huge disadvantage because of the time and effort it takes to TRY to fix the problem.

Spend enough time with some good pros and you see the same thing over and over; client brings a new pointing dog in for training, gets the dog out of the truck and makes him sit. The first thing that pro says to everyone watching is "well, there's an extra month of training expense". Get a bunch of pros together and they actually joke about it.

Teaching sit creates a potential problem that would have to be corrected once formal training begins. And it's not an easy fix. As a result the "standard rule" is don't teach young pointing breed pups to sit until after their foundation training has been completed.

FWIW,
Dave

[Sharon]

Absolutely agree with you Dave but i must say that out of the 4 dogs I've had in the last couple years, not one has carried over being taught to sit in the house, to the field.

[gonehuntin']

I've always taught all of my dogs to sit, but it isn't the first command they learn. I have never had a dog sit on point.
I teach things sequentially though. As a puppy, they learn HERE, NO, KENNEL, and WHOA. It's all play training. Later, when I start into the real training, full obedience and force, they learn sit and down. Mine are versatile dogs and work from duck blinds and in the field. You can't have a versatile dog that won't sit or lie down at a duck blind or in a boat.

Problems with sit are very over rated. If you get a problem dog that sits on point, you teach in STAND or UP. Very simple.

[bobman]

In thirty five years of training and hunting shorthairs I've never ever had one sit on point. SIt is the first command I teach them.


I believe if it does happen its a reaction to way too much pressure on a young dog.

[Don]

Agree with GH and bobman.

There is no reason to pop a dog with a leash or slap it on the butt to teach it to sit.

I have never made a secret that I used to put check cords on pups in the whelping box at about ten days. It's to get the pups used to giving to the CC, or the leash as the case may be. With a young pup, to teach sit, simply get the pup to you, lift up on it's cc and push down gently on its butt. it'll take a bit because the pup does what pups do, they want to play. Stay at it and give a treat when it's done right. Pup's respond well to treats. No pressure in the sit command. When the pup gets older you'll want to teach it to walk on a lead. From learning that to the sit command is the same process when you stop. Up on the lead and push down on the butt, no pressure. If you want the dog to stand still, when you stop, simply command whoa and catch the dog under the flank with one hand and under the neck with the other. Lift a bit to take its feet away then set it down right next to you. It moves at all, do it again till it stands still.

I have watched a video where a dog is taught to whoa from the heel by jerking the lead, just isn't necessary. In that video the dog is obviously reacting to pressure, pressure that is not necessary. Everything doesn't have to be about pressure. Pressure is forcing a dog to do something. Whoa has nothing to do with what we are talking about here but the statement above is to show how pressure can be applied that is not necessary and the reaction to it by the dog.

Get a check cord on your pup ASAP when you get it and start taking control gently. Make sure the cc is an appropriate size for the pup so it can drag it around without trouble. Once the pup is used to the cc and being guided by it, everything else starts to fall into place. On an 8week old pup, I'd get a 50' roll of cotton clothes line and take the first piece at about 10'. The pup should have no problem with that. At about 16 weeks move to 20' and by 20 weeks a good 3/8" tight woven nylon with a cotton core.

Everything you do with your pup is about setting the stage before you need it to make it easier on yourself and the pup. The pup learns early to give to the cc. Then when the time comes, you call the pup and giude it to you with the cc, gently! Next you want it to sit and you lift with the cc and push down with the other hand, give a treat when sitting. Think about where you want to be next month and start setting it up this month.

[Ditch__Parrot]

just my penny. First I'll say I'm sure Don, bobman and GH all have a ton more experience than me.

That said I did have trouble with Sadie Marie sitting in the field. Never on point. While on Whoa she would always want to revert back to sit. I went back and started completly over with Whoa with more involved methods. It seems to have done the trick. Obviously the difference in method made the difference. But I don't think I would of had the problem I had if I would have taught Whoa before sit.

[Trekmoor]

Many of you will have much more experience with pointing dogs than me but in well over 20 years of training H.P.R.'s I have never had any problems with the sit. I teach my pups it from the day I get them. I don't use pressure when a pup is very young ,I use position and a treat. A pup will usually sit if it is in a position where it cannot move further back. It gets used to getting a treat held at about its head level as it is standing, when the hand holding the treat is raised above the pups head it will either rear and scrabble for it and not receive a treat or it will sit back on its haunches and be given the treat. In addition to a vocal command the raised hand with the treat later becomes the raised hand that signals sit.

I have trained several of the versatile breeds by this method now and up to present none of them have been inclined to sit while on point.

Bill T.

[Ditch__Parrot]

Many of you will have much more experience with pointing dogs than me but in well over 20 years of training H.P.R.'s I have never had any problems with the sit. I teach my pups it from the day I get them. I don't use pressure when a pup is very young ,I use position and a treat. A pup will usually sit if it is in a position where it cannot move further back. It gets used to getting a treat held at about its head level as it is standing, when the hand holding the treat is raised above the pups head it will either rear and scrabble for it and not receive a treat or it will sit back on its haunches and be given the treat. In addition to a vocal command the raised hand with the treat later becomes the raised hand that signals sit.

I have trained several of the versatile breeds by this method now and up to present none of them have been inclined to sit while on point.

Bill T.

I bet they sit on the flush though Good to see you post Bill. I was starting to think you put your computer away for the rest of the season.

[Dave Quindt]

A question for Don, bobman and gonehuntin:

How many dog have you each trained that had problems sitting on point? How many of these have you successfully cured?

gonehuntin' wrote:

If you get a problem dog that sits on point, you teach in STAND or UP. Very simple.

How many pointing dogs have you used this method with. 10? 50? 100?

It's easy to say "it's not a problem" when you've not had to deal with the problem.

I've had the "opportunity" to see probably 30-40 dogs that had some issue with sitting around birds be addressed, by 3 different pros. In every case it wasn't a easy, or quick, fix. In some cases, it was incurable.

Many of us can get away with teaching our pointing dogs to sit. Many of us buy dogs that are of such high quality in areas of trainability, temperament and natural ability that it would be never be a problem. Others never train their dogs to levels of steadiness and polish where these issues arise.

The problem is these questions are usually asked by newbies, who often have dogs of "questionable" quality. These folks don't know when to "back off" or how to read a dog; and often they don't know the background of their pups well enough to know that teaching sit too early can cause problems.

I've got a FC/AFC at home that was taught sit at 8 weeks; her breeder (a multi-Nat Ch GSP breeder/trainer/handler) told me it wouldn't be a problem. I remember his exact quote to me "this dog is so well bred that you won't have a problem; but I never suggest this to owners with dogs from backgrounds I don't know". It wasn't a problem for my dog, yet I've never taught sit to the next 2 pups that have come through my program.

Sometimes the old tenets hold true; an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

JMO,
Dave

[Don]

I've never had a dog sit on a point. I did have one dog in that would sit on a whoa though. The cure was simple. When the dog sat, I'd pull it back up gently with the cc and as soon as it got up I'd release the pressure on the cord and give the whoa command again. The owner simply had the dog confussed and the dog was taking a safe posture. I did one session with him here getting him to pick up the dog and a few days later he called and told me the problem was over.

One reason I might not have trouble with it is that I don't cc dogs into birds, no hands on with a bird. Some dogs won't display their confussion with a sit but rather will flag and look around.

[Yawallac]

I just love everyone suggesting that there shouldn't be any problem teaching sit. lol. Try fixing it as much as I do......

DON'T TEACH SIT ...until after your dog is broke.

Dave's first post was as good an explanation as I have ever read.

Retriever trainers should only post in retriever threads..... :roll:

[vzkennels]

Ross & Dave I used to post DON'T TEACH SIT but every time I did there would be 4 or 5 that would post they always teach sit & never have a problem so I gave up.All I can say is tell that to some one who has had a problem & then tell them how to cure it or pay the trainer they have to hire to cure it.These are mostly newbies like stated & the last thing they need is creating a problem that was not necessary to start with.There is much more to be taught before sit & it can wait & IMO really not necessary unless you prefer.

[Yawallac]

These are mostly newbies like stated

Ted, this is exactly why I always post my objection to sit. I am sure that Don, bobman, gonehuntin' and any other experienced trainer could teach sit with no adverse effects. But NEWBIES CAN'T!!!!

It's like some of you guys are more concerned wih ego than common sense. Guess what everyone? I can teach a pup to sit w/o consequence as well. :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

...but we're here to help, not to prove what great trainers we are.

[slistoe]

I have owned two dogs that sat on point. One had been trained to sit and one had not. I have worked with/trained another dog trained to sit who sat on point. I have known two other dogs that were trained to sit and sat on point.

I have not known any of them to be successfully "cured". All of them would revert to sitting on point or after the flush at some point regardless of the time and effort invested in retraining.

At a professional trainer seminar I attended one time the fellow articulated a dog that he had with this problem and his "cure". He claims it worked completely. I would not use it on a dog, and I am not averse to using pressure when required.

I have also owned, trained, worked with, seen a great number of dogs that have been taught sit at a young age and were trained fully finished manners with no adverse effects.

If you really need your dog to 'sit" for house manners/control etc., teach it. But be advised that there is the potential for further problems with the dog's training (note I said potential, not a certainty) and that the potential to work through this problem, should it surface, is not good. But before starting I would really evaluate whether you actually need the sit command at an early age and if you don't - teach it later, or do like I do and don't bother teaching it at all - really, what do I need it for????

[jakemaster]

Well I am not sure if you should teach it or not. But my wife said she will sit in MY house and thus she sits here! Glad she ( my wife ) does not go hunting with me!! Sorry Ross and Keith.

[Don]

The hand that rocks the cradle!

[gonehuntin']

You pointing dog guys should go to retriever school and learn how to train dogs.

Surely, you all realize that you can create problems in dogs with any command you teach when it's done wrong. You can abuse dogs so horribly in force they shut down forever. You can teach HERE and create a bolter. You can teach whoa and create a dog that cowers and lies down. You can break a dog to the gun wrong and create gunshyness.

Any command taught incorrectly can harm a dog.

Dave, I don't know where you've seen 30-40 pointing dogs with sit problems, but that seems like a very large number to me, especially since you don't train professionally. Now, no doubt, pros are sent problem dogs. Half of the dog's you have are dogs with some problem, major or minor, that you're being paid to correct. But to get that many dogs with a problem that I have rarely seen, seen inflated to me. I can tell you this. Every dog I was sent with that problem was cured, or possibly and more correctly, controlled.

[bobman]

I'm pretty sure I mentioned that IMO if its happening its because the dogs being pressure too much at to early of an age, maybe its because I dont train labs anymore but I'm never in a hurry.

IMO the biggest problem in dog training today is everybody watches videos reads books and wrongly think a dog should progress on a fixed schedule and too quickly.

My dogs learn to sit without even knowing they are being trained to sit, all play and reward as pups, same with most of the other stuff they are learning I just take my time.

One thing pros have is expertise and facilities, one thing they don't have is tons of time, a amateur can take his time and should, let a pup be a pup, do that and the dogs far less likely to go to a default command (as Dave correctly stated). I would describe myself as a very advanced amateur.

I've trained other folks dogs and found out I didn't have the patience for the people I had to deal with, dogs are easy to train people are virtually impossible.

My dogs live in the house all 6 shorthairs, both EPs, my boykin, my 80 lb pit and my 100 lb husky, sit is a handy command....its gets a little crazy.


That might be unconventional but I developed my training techniques before videos existed. The idea that training sit will make a dog sit when on point was funny to me the first time I heard it, its never happend with one of my dogs even my rescue dogs who might be considered not highly bred.

I have learned a lot of good stuff here though and appreciate it, theres some real good ideas on here and I enjoy reading them. I've learned a lot of good stuff from GH, Maurice, Don,Knine and Ross's posts and others.

I'm just a good old boy and not in their league i guess, but I'm never in a hurry so I dont use a lot of pressure, virtually none really.

I've been training bird dogs for 38 years I've never had one sit on point yet I must be doing one thing right because everyone of them first learns sit and come as small pups and they are happy to comply

[slistoe]

bobman - do you steady your dogs?

I neglected to include the disclaimer that if you are not intending to have a steady dog then the sit training should never be an issue with your dog.

I have had 9 dogs in the house at once. Not a one of them has the slightest inkling of what sit means. They are easy enough to control with no and mat (which sends them to their place) and for the older dogs - whoa.

[Yawallac]

Well, now that we have that settled .....

I'm curious, when do you guys teach whoa??

Someone called me about training their pup last week and asked about whoa training. I told him that I train whoa after the dog is broke ...he hung up on me.

[nitrex]

I just love everyone suggesting that there shouldn't be any problem teaching sit. lol. Try fixing it as much as I do......

DON'T TEACH SIT ...until after your dog is broke.

Dave's first post was as good an explanation as I have ever read.

Retriever trainers should only post in retriever threads..... :roll:

I AGREE !!!!

[bobman]

bobman - do you steady your dogs?

nope not my personal dogs anyway I primairly hunt pheasants on the prairie and I know the argument for steadying but find that I do better with dogs that are on top of cripples. My dogs do mind so I don't have a problem calling them back froma chase although my thoughts on that are to let them figure out on their own that they can't catch flying birds.

I have steadied quite a few dogs for others although most of the time the next time I saw them they are no longer steady after their owners failed to reinforce the training, most hunters are't going to stick to it , Again thats just my opinion. I dont use any pressure just stop them at the flush with the CC and dont let them chase, if you do that from a pup I find they become steady on their own, probably sounds stupid but it works for me.

Ross I wait until my dogs have had a real good puppy year with 4 solid weeks of daily pheasant hunting then whoa break them the next summer if they dont back naturally. Actually I whoa break all of them anyway because I find its a great safety command. So if its a dog I got as a pup it it would be ayear and a half old. I have got into rescueing adult pointing dogs in my old age and with them I pretty much do the same thing, give them a season to learn and that gives me a season to see what they need to learn.

Make sense?
I'm lucky in that my office is in my house and I can take several breaks during the day to work with my dogs and they are always with me unless I'm out visiting customers so I get much more time with them than most folks with normal jobs.
I also hunt wild pheasants at least 4 complete 7 day weeks in ND and Kansas every year and thats where my dogs got their hunting learning. I teach OB, retrieve and whoa in the yard, they are house dogs from season to season and unfortunately with the decline of quail see few if any game birds from season to season. I've fooled a lot with recall pens in my younger years they are good fro pups but dont feel its necessary after they have a hunting season under their belts.

I've never seen a training seminar, a video, or a field trial, although I am sure I would learn a lot.

[slistoe]

bobman - do you steady your dogs?

nope not my personal dogs anyway.

So we are talking apples and oranges here in regards to sit.

Why do you even bother to teach the whoa command? If you are not steadying the dog and all you need is a safety, what is wrong with sitting the dog - they already know that one.

[bobman]

Slistoe,well two reasons I guess

first when I'm teaching honoring I obviously dont want the dog to sit, and they never have they know the diffeerence between whoa and sit .

second its the voice tone and volume of the word itself. I give the sit command gently and its a hard command to bellow out in a pinch like when a dog is chasing a squirell across the road, WHOA is a word that lends itself to a forceful command to stop the dog right there with no doubt in their mind I mean it.

WHen I trained labs they were all trained to "hup" to both voice and whistle people always asked me whay I used that word ( its supposedly a spaniel command :roll: is what I always heard)and it was for the same reason its a easy word to use with force.

[bobman]

I do have one dog that sits on whoa.... my boykin I train my flushing dogs to sit on whoa so I can use them with my pointers and not confuse things. My boykin sits on sit,whoa and hup. Hes a smart little fella.

[crackerd]

I do have one dog that sits on whoa.... my boykin I train my flushing dogs to sit on whoa so I can use them with my pointers and not confuse things. My boykin sits on sit,whoa and hup...

And looks doggone good doing it on any of 'em, if I may say so.

Funny how this is analogous to the Brits not putting heeling into their spaniels for fear of detracting from or diminishing their quartering pattern, because--bloody h*ll!--they're walking in a straight line. Yeah, right. (Trekmoor, I didn't say "analogous to the Scots," mate --given that your pointers and HPRs better know how to sit--or drop--to the flush as a reflexive action rather than as a default for too much pressure.)

Of course, if I want a spaniel running that straight line, I just ask her mark something out there at the end of it.


In fact, maybe the pointer guys worried about developing a bad habit could use something proportionate in size in their dogs' mouths as ballast to keep them from sitting--so they don't topple over.

MG

[Benny]

I'm a newbie, and I've taught sit to Emma, but I think she already had that one in her quiver when I adopted her.
She kicks a$$ on point and wouldn't dare sit because she knows she's about to run like heck and chase those birds :roll:
However, we've started whoa training (she's 1 year old) and it has been difficult. I think that she does not understand what I want from her, and I'm trying the CC technique, lifting her up, stopping her at the door...you name it. Every time she just sits because I believe the pressure is too much for her to understand what I want. I think the sitting is just a default reaction when the dog is misunderstanding or is not confident in something.
But like I said...I'm a newbie

[gonehuntin']

Well, now that we have that settled .....

I'm curious, when do you guys teach whoa??

Someone called me about training their pup last week and asked about whoa training. I told him that I train whoa after the dog is broke ...he hung up on me.

I teach "Whoa" from the time they're babies actually, but formally when they start yard work. Whoa is taught as an obedience command, not in conjunction with birds.

[Yawallac]

gonehuntin' wrote:
I teach "Whoa" from the time they're babies actually, but formally when they start yard work. Whoa is taught as an obedience command, not in conjunction with birds.

Yep, like I always say, "Once a retriever trainer, always a retriever trainer."

You have stated on many boards and many times that "style" means very little to you. Most recently because you have "versatile dogs". As if a versatile dog isn't capable of style. We just differ on about every aspect of training because we have different priorities. You, being the former retriever trainer that you are, consider obedience to be of utmost importance, while I, being the trialer that I am, value the importance of style and independence.

Our training techniques conflict because I do everything possible to maintain a dogs style and independence. I will not compromise those for obedience when I am developing a prospect. I don't want soft pointing, slack backing, relaxing after the flush, bootlicking, constant checking in, etc., etc., etc. None of those things are acceptable to me ...whether trialing or hunting. I want everything from my dog that he is capable of. I will not tolerate anything less. You demand obedience and you won't tolerate anything less.

We just differ.

I post this so that newbies reading the thread understand why we differ in our training philosophies. The dogs will look different at the end of training. The more posts on training that you read the easier It is to spot the former retriever trainers ....as it will be to spot the trialers.

Here is a short clip of two of my pups from the other day. It should clearly demonstrate the results of nurturing style rather than obedience. You just can't get this level of intensity using their techniques....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i01RBXqjVcE

I thought I was taking a couple of still shots and didn't realize the video mode was pressed on the camera so it's short and choppy. Sorry.

[Dave Quindt]

Dave, I don't know where you've seen 30-40 pointing dogs with sit problems, but that seems like a very large number to me, especially since you don't train professionally.

Not sure why you think this problem is so rare; this is one of the biggest owner-caused problems every pointing dog gundog trainer I know (and I know a bunch) has to deal with. I know just about every major pointing dog pro in your own state; I've yet to meet one of them that recommends that their pups be taught to sit prior to training. I can't think of a single dog I've seen where teaching sit early on would have made their training easier; but I can think of a boat load of dogs who would have benefitted from not having been taught sit. When I was involved with NAVHDA, we'd see a new dog or two every month that had problems with sitting around birds. 30-40 dogs is only 3-4 a year over the last decade; I can remember one pro I know who had 3 dogs on his string at the same time that wanted to sit!

I've been lucky enough to spend a ton of time over the last decade with some very good pros; one kennel has two pros, each with roughly 20 dogs in at a time and another 3-6 being trained in one-on-one sessions, plus whatever comes through the door on a weekly open house training session for the public (usually 10-20 dogs) I’ve seen my fair share.

The worse ones are the newbies who teach sit and then let their dogs catch a bunch of birds on the ground. Pointing goes down the drain, and the pro is left having to put some control on the dog around birds. Put a little pressure on the dog to stop ripping and they start sitting. Vizslas are the worse; the combo of teaching sit and catching pen raised birds often ends their career as useful pointing dogs.

IMO, the argument over teaching sit is like arguing that keeping primers and gunpowder in the same cabinet isn't a problem. It's not that the odds of a problem are extremely high; it’s that the results of the potential problem are so severe. The theoretical reward isn't worth the actual risk.

JMO,
Dave

[vzkennels]

Ross you pretty much took the words out of my mouth,if a dog has no style & class he don't live here.Yes we can BREAK dogs at an early age & have them look like ROBOTS but I want a dog that is happy & animated & likes what it's doing not because it's made to.I have a dog with Chris Goegan,he says there isn't a dog that can touch her retrieving all natural no FF she loves it,she will knock you down returning with the bird tail ticking all the time.Nothing wrong with FF if necessary when the time is right,same with whoa & sit,AT THE RIGHT TIME.

[gonehuntin']

Just to clarify for some on the board, I think Yawl is one heck of a trainer and contrary to what it seems, there is a lot we agree on. We do like needling each other though but at least on my part, it's all good fun. Can't speak for him, but I think it is on his part too.

We do believe in different things, but we achieve them in much the same manor.

Ross is right, I don't care about style, but I LOVE and will NOT do without intensity. I'm a hunter now not a trialer. I enjoy seeing my dogs work, now riding Secretariat to find them ( That wasn't fair and in jest Ross). Actually, on I think another board, he posted a great picture of his son on a full run on a horse. Great shot. I still tell everyone it's Ross after anothe pointer.

[gonehuntin']

I know just about every major pointing dog pro in your own state; I've yet to meet one of them that recommends that their pups be taught to sit prior to training. I can't think of a single dog I've seen where teaching sit early on would have made their training easier;

Teaching sit doesn't make training easier, it makes the dog a good citizen in the home. For every dog that has had problems with sit, there are a thousand that have never had a problem. Remember what I said, teach ANY command incorrectly or at the wrong time, and it can cause problems. Almost every dog I ever got that had been forced by the owner had to be re-forced so it was done right. Same with Whoa. Most dogs were not reliable on whoa or cringed and layed down when they heard it. You fellas are singleing out sit at a command that causes problems when incorrectly taught. Fact is, all commands cause problems when incorrectly taught.

The worse ones are the newbies who teach sit and then let their dogs catch a bunch of birds on the ground. Pointing goes down the drain, and the pro is left having to put some control on the dog around birds. Put a little pressure on the dog to stop ripping and they start sitting. Vizslas are the worse; the combo of teaching sit and catching pen raised birds often ends their career as useful pointing dogs.

If you teach a young dog sit and if you THROW and let it retrieve live birds using the fetch command while at the same time working him on a cc and traps, you won't have a problem. You will have an very birdy dog. Again Dave, it's how it's done, not what it done.

[Dave Quindt]

You fellas are singleing out sit at a command that causes problems when incorrectly taught. Fact is, all commands cause problems when incorrectly taught.

If the only command the dog knows is "whoa" before training starts, then it becomes the default response. That's exactly what we want pup to do; when in doubt, stop what you are doing and stand still.

If you teach a young dog sit and if you THROW and let it retrieve live birds using the fetch command while at the same time working him on a cc and traps, you won't have a problem. You will have an very birdy dog.

If you've got a dog that's rippin' birds, the last think you are going to do is throw live birds for retrieves!

it's how it's done, not what it done

EXACTLY!!!

The newbie doesn't have the experience to understand the "how". As a result, the best thing for the newbie/inexperienced amateur is to NOT teach the command at all. Let whoa be the default command as it's the best thing for a pointing dog to revert to if confused. Nothing bad ever happens to a dog that whoa's too much!

Think of all the pros, all the books, all the videos, all the training seminars where "don't start by teaching your pointing pup to sit" - those are not directed to the guys with 20 dogs under their belts. They're directed to the guys who need direction!

[jakemaster]

thought I was taking a couple of still shots and didn't realize the video mode was pressed on the camera so it's short and choppy. Sorry.

You are the absent minded professor!

We do like needling each other though but at least on my part, it's all good fun. Can't speak for him, but I think it is on his part too.

I'll speak for him HE LOVES IT!!!!! :roll: :roll:

[Prairie Hunter]

I fall into the camp of teaching my dogs to sit. Fortunately, I have never had one with any inclination to sit on point, or after the flush. However, Sit is not the 1st command I teach a dog. If I get a pup at 8 weeks, I take the first week at home just bonding with it. Then, we start training. I teach Come 1st, then teach Whoa. By then, I’m usually ready to start exposing it to birds in the field, start it pointing, and start working on staunchness. At the same time, I teach Sit & Down when we are at home. All of this I do with little if any pressure. I don’t expect the pup to be perfect at the commands, I just want it to learn them. Pressure to comply with the command immediately and completely will come once the dog is mature enough to handle it. As a result, there is no loss of drive or style.

There are always going to be new trainers (and some pros) that screw up dogs by improperly teaching commands. If it’s not Sit, then it will be something else that will cause a problem. I don’t think that’s a reason for new trainers to be afraid to teach any command.

This is the same thing that was used to be said about using an e-collar to train a dog. The common lore was that it was best left to the pros. The 1st time I strapped an e-collar on a dog, I was terrified I was going to do something that would ruin the poor dog for ever. However, what I found was that effective training with an e-collar only required an understanding of a good training technique, some common sense, the ability to read the dog, and the understanding of why the dog responds to the stimulus. There really wasn’t any magic to it.

[Yawallac]

...the ability to read the dog, and the understanding of why the dog responds to the stimulus. There really wasn’t any magic to it.

The "magic" to training a dog IS the ability to read the dog. That comes with experience and that is the one thing that newbies don't have. In their exuberance of owning a new hunting dog, many newbies over train, putting too much emphasis on obedience. That's just human nature and it's something that can easily be prevented.

After reading threads like this, I am convinced that many "experienced" trainers have no idea what a properly trained pointing dog can look like. And it's my opinion that ALL retriever trainers should undergo cult deprogramming prior to training their first pointing dog!!

(gonehuntin' - love ya buddy!!)
(jakemaster - absentmindedness ...or Alzheimer's!!)

[gonehuntin']

After reading threads like this, I am convinced that many "experienced" trainers have no idea what a properly trained pointing dog can look like. And it's my opinion that ALL retriever trainers should undergo cult deprogramming prior to training their first pointing dog!!

(gonehuntin' - love ya buddy!!)
(jakemaster - absentmindedness ...or Alzheimer's!!)

How do you know what a properly trained pointing dog looks like? It's so easy to overlook their faults when they're a quarter mile away!!!

Isn't a "properly trained pointer" a conundrum??

[gonehuntin']

If the only command the dog knows is "whoa" before training starts, then it becomes the default response. That's exactly what we want pup to do; when in doubt, stop what you are doing and stand still.

Thing is Dave, any command can be incorrectly taught and cause problems. I've had dogs come in for training that when you said the word "whoa", absolutely cowered and layed down. What you are suggesting is that NO command be taught a youngster, because it may be done incorrectly. That is simply not true. I would be willing to bet that at a minimum, 80% of all the members on this board train their own dogs. You can't take that away from them. Sit is like any other command; you have to learn how to do it before the command is taught to eliminate problems later. The same can be said for every command the dog ever learns.

Most pointing dog trainers are locked in the dark ages. Change comes slowly to them. Methods they are utilizing today, retriever trainers have been using for 30 years. Sit is simply an obedience command like any other and there is no reason that, if properly taught, a dog shouldn't learn it.

Ross' main interest is in trial dogs. That doesn't work for me. I want my dogs within 150 yards max. I hate horses.

If you teach a young dog sit and if you THROW and let it retrieve live birds using the fetch command while at the same time working him on a cc and traps, you won't have a problem. You will have an very birdy dog.

If you've got a dog that's rippin' birds, the last think you are going to do is throw live birds for retrieves!

Don't buy that line and never will. I've worked with a bunch of pointing dogs that would point birds, but had no interest in retrieving them. They had to be forced and were never good retrievers. Why? People didn't have access to, or were afraid to let them retrieve birds. They were afraid they would build tremendous retrieving desire in a dog then not know how to channel it. Hogwash. You balance the training,as you do all training. Half is handling and retrieving clipwings, half is cc work on traps. Do it this way and you won't have a problem. You have to think out of the box a little and be open to advancement.

How many times do you see problems on these threads because someone's dog doesn't want to retrieve a bird? You see them ALL THE TIME and they greatly outnumber the thread about problems with sit.

it's how it's done, not what it done

EXACTLY!!!

See, we agree.

The newbie doesn't have the experience to understand the "how". As a result, the best thing for the newbie/inexperienced amateur is to NOT teach the command at all. Let whoa be the default command as it's the best thing for a pointing dog to revert to if confused. Nothing bad ever happens to a dog that whoa's too much!

The heck there doesn't. They cower and lay down, they lock up at the slightest issue and don't want to move. You can get the same type of problems form whoa you do with sit, only in a different form.

Think of all the pros, all the books, all the videos, all the training seminars where "don't start by teaching your pointing pup to sit" - those are not directed to the guys with 20 dogs under their belts. They're directed to the guys who need direction!

Again, you keep saying, "Don't start with sit". I agree. But it should be taught. You are not going to compete in NAVHDA without a pointing dog that sits and is obedience trained. How do you eplain that? It seems that pointing dog people are so afraid to have a well trained dog. I've been doing it the way I do it for about 30 years now and doing it with all breeds. So has Don.

Within the next 10-15 years, I believe you will be seeing most dogs trained the way I, and many others, do. The trial dogs wont' be, but they're kind of a special deal. Most on this board are hunters. We want well trained, obedient dogs that hold point and retrieve birds. We also don't want to have to ride a horse to keep up with them. I drag enough crud with me when I go hunting.

[snips]

DC Gambles Odyssey Fritz MH RD UT PR II (ect) does not know how to sit. Sit is not a requirement in Ut. He knows Whoa and Heel. I will throw in I do not like teaching Sit before Whoa training, altho I get a bunch in that knows it. Occasionally it pops out in the field. I just think "why take the chance".

[Duane M]

I have seen the issue in some but not all that are taught to sit before they have been brought in, a couple of breeds it is worse than others it seems but that could be due to how the owners taught it. I started teach mine sit at the feed bowl last year as puppys, little puppys, and don't see it in them. My thoughts are if you are going to take your dog to a trainers don't do it to avoid the POSSIBLE hassle for them, if you're gonna do it your self then it's all your call.

[Prairie Hunter]

Yawallac,

How does a new trainer gain enough experience to read a dog if they don’t attempt to train? It’s like trying to get a job where all the employers require experience. How do you get that experience, if no one will hire you? Every one of us has to start somewhere.

IMO, the real magic to training is common sense. A new trainer must realize they don’t know everything, and try to prepare themselves by accumulating as much good information as possible before starting the training process. They should be reading books, watching training videos. They should spend time talking to as many experienced trainers as possible, and if possible, spend time working dogs with them. When a newbie runs into problems along the way, they must have enough sense to realize things are not going well, and the dog is not responding as expected. Rather than continuing on with what they are doing, and risk creating problems in the dog, they should find someone with experience that can help them through the problem.

I ran into problems training for the NAVHDA UT Duck Search with the 1st dog I trained. I was having trouble getting the dog to go out and search for very long and expand its search. I called NAVHDA head quarters, and explained my problem. They gave me contact information for a very knowledgeable trainer with a history for producing dogs with strong duck searches. He was more than willing to share his expertise. He explained what he felt my problem was, and how to overcome it. He shared his method for training for the duck search, and more importantly, the concept and rational behind his method. I tried it, and it worked. My dog developed an exceptional duck search. However, if I had continued on the path I was on originally, I probably would have created problems for the dog that would have been difficult to overcome.

Based on what I learned from that trainer, I have over the years, refined that method to suit my training style. However, it was his help that allowed me to gain the experience I needed.

[Yawallac]

Prairie Hunter wrote:
How does a new trainer gain enough experience to read a dog if they don’t attempt to train?

Prairie Hunter wrote:
...it was his help that allowed me to gain the experience I needed.

You answered your own question.

We'll just have to differ on what the "magic" is.

[Yawallac]

gonehuntin' wrote:
Again, you keep saying, "Don't start with sit". I agree.

Music to my ears....

That's all we have been saying gonehuntin'. If you want to teach sit later, than no problem. It's the easiest of all dog commands to teach. Just put it on hold, that's all.

BTW, I don't use sit for the Remainder by the Blind sequence in NAVHDA, sit is not required ...and I've qualified more than a couple of UTs...

[nitrex]

...

After reading threads like this, I am convinced that many "experienced" trainers have no idea what a properly trained pointing dog can look like.

That may be the most truthful statement ever written on this forum!!!! I see way too many "pro" or "experienced" trainers that have no idea what a properly trained pointing dog can look like. These days all one needs to be a pro trainer is a can of spray paint, and plywood, and a roadside place to put the sign in the ground. Yes they claim 20 years or 30 years experience, but I have to say that most of the experience has been trial and error, with mostly error. With that said, their are some great pros doing a bang up job training to a level that most guys will never see. The thing I am learning most, is that we expect way too little out of our dogs. Most want obedience and will sacrifice style and hunting sense. I must have both! Pressure takes style out of a dog, the less you can use the more style you get - I don't think anyone can argue with that!

With that said, I never teach a dog to sit (even my older, finished dogs), all my dogs live in the house, and have great manners. I teach them to stand without moving their feet with the clicker by the time they are several months old. They love doing it and it produces a dog has a desire to learn.

Nitrex

[bobman]

:roll: right or maybe some folks on here are just a little too judgemental about what others know, just because someone has a different approach doens't ALWAYS mean its right or wrong. I try not to come on too strong on these issues because the more I know about dog training or anything else for that matter the more I realize I don't know it all.

Something to be considered....

[Don]

A few crappy looking dogs that had learned to sit before they were trained. Please note that none are wearing an e-collar except Squirt and Bodie who are still in training.


OOPS! Bodie doesn't have his e-collar on.



















Percy








I would be intrested in seeing how good a dog can look that hasn't been screwed up by teaching it to sit!

[bobman]

I would be intrested in seeing how good a dog can look that hasn't been screwed up by teaching it to sit!

great pictures by the way

[Don]

Ah heck, Hannah wasn't that bad looking. Pigs don't win. Six placements that weekend and Hannah got a first and a third and Percy a first.