when to teach heel

Addict · Post by **Addict** » Sun Aug 14, 2005 4:48 pm

I have a four month old gsp and a five month old gwp. I was wondering if they are too young to start heel work. I would like to get a little more control over them because it gets old telling them to constanly come.

I know you have to be careful with teaching this too young or else they won't range out.

Addict

Ryan · Post by **Ryan** » Sun Aug 14, 2005 5:07 pm

We taught at 6 months and use a choke collar.

Addict · Post by **Addict** » Sun Aug 14, 2005 5:12 pm

Ryan,

With teaching this at 6 months do your dogs range good?

Addict

Ryan · Post by **Ryan** » Sun Aug 14, 2005 5:14 pm

perfect. I also teach 2 whistle blasts mean go so i can use that too. I dont have to do it often. I also run my dog everyday in my back school ground and keep her out there. In the field she know what to do and how far to range.

gunner · Post by **gunner** » Mon Aug 15, 2005 10:14 am

It's one of the last things I teach my dogs to do.
Obedience work like this, I believe may hinder the independence a pointing breed needs to do his job effectively.
To much obedience early on makes for dogs that rely to much on their handler for direction.
Most traditional field trial and good wild bird dogs would know "heel" at about their third birthday.
Build toward it, work lightly with good hands and a soft voice.

Addict · Post by **Addict** » Mon Aug 15, 2005 11:24 am

Thanks Gunner,

I've been watching the Bill West/Gibbons training DVD and it looks like they all just let their dogs drag them around. I guess I can accept that. I will wait to teach heel. I don't want them to loose any of their independance.

Addict

mountaindogs · Post by **mountaindogs** » Mon Aug 15, 2005 12:33 pm

I have taught one of our dogs a "let's walk" command. I used it on leash only, thru the puppyhood. In my mind "heel" is very exacting and is more than what I need in a birddog. (I know there are lots of reason to train it, though for testing and FF...) I don't need him to stay right at my heels, or sit when I stop, or make exact turns with me at this point -- I just want him to walk nicely on leash, not pulling.
I'm not sure whether you are talking about on or off leash, but I think if you need the dog in by you, use the leash until they are ready for more exacting training. If you want him to hunt around, them use no leash or drag the CC
I use the command, so he can distinguish between draggin a CC and walking on a leash and he has distingushed really well. He learned quickly which was the leash and which was the CC. Just an idea I thought I'd share.

If you are talking about off leash... I wouldn't pull him in alot. Sounds like he comes back well, but you could wear him out on it. If you call it alot and he really doesn't want to come back so much he might start testing you on that. Then you'll be fixing that... of course I'm sure you'll be enforcing that sooner or later... I just personally try to get them to e-collar age before I get real problems with "here." That's the plan that the dogs deviate from anyway

Laurie

Post by **ezzy333** » Mon Aug 15, 2005 2:06 pm

Come, whoa, and heel are the three obedience commands I teach a pup starting the day they can walk or when they are on a leash. I have never seen any carry over good or bad that affected their field work. Those commands can be started before they know there is such a thing as a bird since I feel they are copletely seperate issues to me and the pup also.

I can't believe good manners will have a connection to how or when a dog will work in the field except to make the pup know you are in command. And that is good. Plus the safety factor is enhansed when the pup knows to listen.

Ezzy

Margaret · Post by **Margaret** » Mon Aug 15, 2005 4:26 pm

I also teach my puppies from an early age to heel.

But I teach this in my hallway, and the yard.

As young pups when taken out they are encouraged to sniff
and explore, I do no heel work out "in the field" until I can see that they indeed are keen on being little hunting dogs.

Then I introduce a little heelwork before they are let off to run.

I have no problem with lack of independence, in fact the opposite.

What I think would cause a pup to lack in confidence to get out would be over training at a young age, too long and expecting too much. This will indeed make you so dominant the pup will
be inclinded to mind you all the time and not have the confidence to be independent enough to do the game finding - maybe waiting for owner to do that job IMHO.

Ryan · Post by **Ryan** » Mon Aug 15, 2005 7:23 pm

Sorry I should clear this up. I use heel in the yard or on a leash and not in the feild or training.

mountaindogs · Post by **mountaindogs** » Tue Aug 16, 2005 2:14 am

Seems to me one issue is the precise definition of "heel." I learned heel first in odedience training and it means stay at my side exactly, watch me the WHOLE time, turn when I turn without gaining or losing an inch between the dog and your leg, don't let the dog bump your or move to far forward or behind, sit immediatly at all stops and return to heel position from a "here." This is way to exacting for a young dog, I think.
But if you are just trying to get the dog to walk with you and not pull you all over the place, then that's what my "let's walk" does for my dog. I used the seperate command from heel so that when/if I do teach "heel" I can still allow the less strict "let's walk" without letting the dog break the rules on "heel." I don't always want a precise obedience heel, and frankly I don't think upland dogs need it. When I go into the vet's I'd like my dog to walk nicely in, but I don't need that obedience level of heel.
But you can use whatever command you'd like and I'd just decide how much detail you need and go from there. A very young puppy can learn to walk nicely on a leash and I don't think its too much pressure at all. That's my novice opinion anyway

Good luck!

Laurie[/u]

gunner · Post by **gunner** » Tue Aug 16, 2005 9:02 am

For those dogs that will be conditioned by roading and work in harnesses I think it best for them to learn how to pull and road before the obedience of heeling.
That said I don't like to do much hard pulling work with a young animal less than a year.

Jon · Post by **Jon** » Tue Aug 16, 2005 2:18 pm

mountaindogs wrote:Seems to me one issue is the precise definition of "heel." I learned heel first in odedience training and it means stay at my side exactly, watch me the WHOLE time, turn when I turn without gaining or losing an inch between the dog and your leg, don't let the dog bump your or move to far forward or behind, sit immediatly at all stops and return to heel position from a "here." This is way to exacting for a young dog, I think.
But if you are just trying to get the dog to walk with you and not pull you all over the place, then that's what my "let's walk" does for my dog. I used the seperate command from heel so that when/if I do teach "heel" I can still allow the less strict "let's walk" without letting the dog break the rules on "heel." I don't always want a precise obedience heel, and frankly I don't think upland dogs need it. When I go into the vet's I'd like my dog to walk nicely in, but I don't need that obedience level of heel.
But you can use whatever command you'd like and I'd just decide how much detail you need and go from there. A very young puppy can learn to walk nicely on a leash and I don't think its too much pressure at all. That's my novice opinion anyway
Good luck!

Laurie[/u]

" Let's Walk " That is what I'm doing right now at 12 wks. He can walk in front or behind me but he can not pull on the lead.

I'm walking him, he is not walking me. ( this is a problem I see with many dogs and mine will NEVER do this, if I tell him not to )

After we are finished with all the basics as he gets older, I'll move on to a higher level of heel training.

When in the field / woods he still runs out 30 - 40 yards exploring so I haven't seen where it makes him stay close.
He wants to get out and explore and the only reason he doesn't do this is if he is running past me checking in or I tell him to come here.

My pup lives in the house and his number one requirement in life is to listen when I give a command above everything else. Hunting birds for me comes second. I can't push him too hard yet but as he gets older he will learn what he can and can't do.

Obedience training is a topic I will prob. disagree with many on, so I won't go into any more detail.

It's really what YOU want from YOUR dog.

snips · Post by **snips** » Tue Aug 16, 2005 5:19 pm

I don`t like teaching heel until 10-12 mo old. I like total independence, I don`t mind a dog pulling me to the line to run a trial, I WANT a dog enthusiastic. When we are getting ready to turn loose at a trial I don`t want him thinking about ANYTHING but the job ahead, and that ain`t walking at my side. As Jon said, all heeling amounts to is what each person expects from his or her dog. I have put the highest levels of obedience titles on my dogs, but they were running and hunting birds before they knew any of this, it never hurt them (if not helped them) to start heeling at a later age.

Margaret · Post by **Margaret** » Tue Aug 16, 2005 6:57 pm

So what people want in a trials dog is different again to what
people want in a companion hunting dog.

So there are two answers to heelwork at a young age -
yes
no

Marg

Post by **Greg Jennings** » Tue Aug 16, 2005 7:14 pm

Margaret wrote:So what people want in a trials dog is different again to what
people want in a companion hunting dog.

So there are two answers to heelwork at a young age -
yes
no

Exactly.

Also even within the trialing community there are 100 different approaches. Some might not work with early heeling, some might not.

I read a lot of different approaches and have come to the conclusion that some are influenced by the breed that is being trialed and sometimes by the line within the breed.

Different strokes for different folks. If the person is being successful with the method, it seems to me that it would behoove one to listen and learn from it.

Best regards,

snips · Post by **snips** » Tue Aug 16, 2005 9:29 pm

One thing to keep in mind when teaching pups excessive obedience is, you have no way of knowing how dependant you might be making them in the long run. There are some dogs that get along fine and others that as soon as you make a correction later on when their training begins, they come to your side and heel, or the sit shows up. Then you are left wondering, where did that come from? Well, pup did it to please you all his life, why not now? I just trained a dog steady thru the fall. Dog had lots of "sit" drilled in him thru his growing up. It never showed up until he had to stand there while a bird hopped around in front of him and had to be flushed several times. Well, in the testing system this can happen, and the dog would stand so long, then his way of dealing with the pressure of standing, was to revert back to his sit. So, just because a small pup seems fine with all thats taught him you might end up with repurcussions at a later date, for me, I would rather be safe than sorry.

Addict · Post by **Addict** » Tue Aug 16, 2005 10:20 pm

Thanks for all your posts everyone.

I guess this is making me wonder about what training to do now. Is it ok to teach come and whoa now with the 4 and 5 month old dogs? The whoa part is all silent with no verbal command like the Bill West method. They both seem to be doing well. Neither one of them has lost the desire to go out in front of me when looking for birds.

I like the "lets walk" type of command. I'm beginning to think I will never teach my pointers to "heel" like I did with my lab. I plan on trialing both the pointers.

Addict

Jon · Post by **Jon** » Wed Aug 17, 2005 10:58 pm

Addict wrote:Thanks for all your posts everyone.

I guess this is making me wonder about what training to do now.
Addict

Here is another topic with many diff. opinions. I think you will find after reading and researching, it still comes back to what YOU want from YOUR dog.

http://www.gundogforum.com/forum/viewto ... c&start=30

Dogs do many things on their own even if you don't train a command for that action. Until they understand what you want from them, they may just sit down waiting for you to teach them. They are sitting and giving you their full attention while concentrating on your training. If you taught the sit word ( as an example) then somebody may try to claim that is why the dog sat when in the real world he may have just felt like sitting down. Or he may have done this or that because he remembered it makes you happy. If you don't want the dog to do something that he does on his own, then you can train him to understand that. But sooner or later you will have to give him praise for doing something right and then have to worry about him doing that to please the next time he is confused during training. The more you use a command the higher the risk of the dog doing it when confused. It would become a habit, like habits people have. But we can change our ways and break bad habits and so can your dog if you don't want him to do something. Sit is a command that people tend to use a lot to keep the dog under control so it would make sense that a dog may sit more if told to do so on a regular basis. But my dog will still sit every time I need him to and I'll deal with the training issues that may surface from it when the time comes. Fact still remains that my house pet will spend much more time out of the woods then he will in it, so obiedience is still going to win out over finding birds a few months out of the year. He is already showing dominance issues and I'm going to nip that in the butt real fast by giving him commands when needed. My little guy is very head strong and it will take a lot more than telling him to sit or heel to hinder his drive or free will.

Call 10 diff. trainers and you may get 10 diff. opinions. You would still be the one making the decision on YOUR preferred method. Just because one person has had pretty good luck with their method doesn't mean the other person is wrong. You would have to compare trainers competing where everything is the same other than their methods to really compare any data and even then it would depend on how they interpret their training which can be pretty confusing understanding their explanations at times. People don't always say what they mean. And they always think their way is the best or they wouldn't have chosen it.

If you post a question with MANY details exactly what you plan to do with your dog and to what level etc. I'm sure you would get a little more detail as to why you should consider this or that based on these reasons. But it would still be opinions without any real facts to compare to. That's my opinion, but I could be wrong !

Good Luck