Gunshyness! I am at a loss!

daddyfid · Post by **daddyfid** » Tue Mar 03, 2009 4:33 pm

I have a 10month old Vizsla that is gunshy. I shot my 22 bland pistol around her 3 times when she was chasing a bird and I was about 40 yards away. The first 2 times she did not flinch but the 3rd time she paused on the shot. We were about 75 to 100 yards away from a gunner this weekend when he shot and my pup ran and cowered down under my truck. I could hardly herar the shot. I bought a gunshyness CD and a fireworks CD and play it as loud as I can when she is in her kennel and these noises do not bother her. I bang on metal and it does not phase her. So not all lound noises startle her. I went to wal-mart and bought a cheap cap gun that is not loud at all. I fired from my back door when she was about 50yards away and she ran and hid. This cap gun is not loud. I do not know what to do! Any advice would be great. I am to the point where I am ready to sell her to a non hunting home. Any ideas or suggestions would be great.

Thanks,
Brian

texscala · Post by **texscala** » Tue Mar 03, 2009 4:53 pm

I would get your dog outdoors a lot and let them have tons of fun while exploring. Introduce birds in the field (lots of birds) and get the dog excited. Once your dog is bird crazy start over and use a small caliber off in the distance when the dog is chasing a bird and see what happens.

Good luck.

postoakshorthairs · Post by **postoakshorthairs** » Tue Mar 03, 2009 5:23 pm

I agree. get it refocused on birds. I had a pointer recently who was not at all shy to the noise of a gun if he could associate it with a bird flush but if it was a shot from nearby or a wild flush shot when then dog didn't see the birds he bolted. I got him on tons of birds in an area with lower cover where he could see the birds flush and focus. I slowly introduced gunfire to him and after a while he was completely over it. One other thing I did was carry a freshly killed bird and when the bird was flushed i would throw the bird in his line of sight with the gunshot. I think it helped him associate a reward (the retrieve) with the gunfire. Just my two cents worth.

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Tue Mar 03, 2009 5:23 pm

I'm really kind of at a loss on this one. None of the behaviors you're describing make sense. It sounds like the dog is not a mentally balanced dog. I don't have much experience with vizsla's but two guys that do are Maurice Lindley and Jonesy, "tailcrackin'" on here. I'd ask them. The breed is known as a very soft and late maturing breed, plus they're a little spooky.

The dog may just need to mature. I sure hope Maurice or Jonesy chime in here.

remmy · Post by **remmy** » Tue Mar 03, 2009 6:04 pm

Soft dog or not gun shyness is not an inherited trait. It is man made and it is up to you to fix it.

Put a few birds in a bird bag...pigeons or quail...no gun yet!! Take one out and tease the heck out of pup. Don't let the wings slap pup in the face though. Once pup is getting fired up let the bird fly and let him chase. Call him back and repeat with another bird. Keep doing this until pup is stir crazy about birds...one day,few days or weeks depending on the pup.

Once pup is really fired up about birds take a bird out of the bag and tease the pup like you have been. Release the bird and let pup chase...once pup is at a good distance fire the blank gun.

The key is to get pup fired up about birds before doing any gun training.

Sprig · Post by **Sprig** » Tue Mar 03, 2009 7:44 pm

i am dealing with a similiar problem with a clients dog. it is a brittany that is gunshy but hasnt had alot of birds. the only sure fire way to get the dog over the problem is give it a positive reward with gunfire such as birds. shooting around a dog without a reward can alot of times make it worse. before you fire one more shot you need to get that dog as bird crazy as possible. the down side is it might cause a lesser problem you will have to address later. let the dog fetch and play with as many pigeons as you can get the dog on, live or dead, prefarably live if the dog likes them as some pointing dogs dont like live birds. only after the dog is crazy about playing with (live) birds can you go back and "slowly" work gunfire back into the picture, a few shots each day with the live birds. use a 22 blank for a while and never go to a shotgun unti the dog is 100% over the 22 and then use a small gauge or very light load with a shotgun. only shoot when the dog is about to get the live bird and shoot away from the dog, at a great distance and slowly slowly slowly close the gap. this may take many months but gunshyness you have to ease into it.

the lesser problem this may cause with some dogs is it might erode some of the holding point as the dog is getting tons of birds to play with but this can be dealth with with pigeons and bird launchers.

i hope this helps

bobman · Post by **bobman** » Tue Mar 03, 2009 7:56 pm

I dont like blank guns for this work once the dog is birdy again you need to Kill a bird the dog is chasing. with one shot, that puts the "bang bird falls" sequence in their minds so it makes sense to them

and repeated shots with a blank gun is what causes this stuff... one shot per bird no more

aylaschamp · Post by **aylaschamp** » Tue Mar 03, 2009 8:27 pm

I'll add one more opinion to the multitude already given.

I don't shoot blank pistols till I know the dog isn't gun shy! In my belief blanks and 22s have a higher tone that disturbs their ears worse. I have two methods and which one I use depends on what the dog likes best. If the dog retrieves dead birds and loves it, I have someone about 100 yrds away with a 20ga shotgun and while retrieving dead birds let a shot out 1 out of 3-4 throws. For a dog that doesn't retrieve yet, I turn 3-4 dogs out at a time and let them have fun. using the same 20ga, fire when they're at a hellofa long distance away. If the dog runs back with the rest of the dogs because of the shot ignore it and the others till they run off again, repeating this over and over again in small doses. JMO

bobman · Post by **bobman** » Tue Mar 03, 2009 9:38 pm

I dont allow shooting of any kind around my dogs unless a bird is being chased or killed...not ever.

not even the old broke dogs that have had tons of birds killed over them

I'm not too picky about most stuff with dogs but this one is a big deal with me

I agree about the comments about 22's also if your going to use 22 blanks use a rifle and point it away from the dogs

Windyhills · Post by **Windyhills** » Tue Mar 03, 2009 10:07 pm

I think everything I'd say has been said, but I might add talking to the pups breeder if you can to see what problems his/her line has had with this and what they have done to resolve them. V's can be more prone to problems than other breeds, but it's hard to say what really happened here. I've heard of dogs becoming gunshy for a lot of reasons. Just the same, I'd suggest talking to someone with experience with V's, as I think some of the normal solutions don't work as well with them at times.

aylaschamp · Post by **aylaschamp** » Tue Mar 03, 2009 11:18 pm

bobman wrote:I dont allow shooting of any kind around my dogs unless a bird is being chased or killed...not ever.

not even the old broke dogs that have had tons of birds killed over them

I'm not too picky about most stuff with dogs but this one is a big deal with me

Why is it such a huge deal to you?

WildRose · Post by **WildRose** » Tue Mar 03, 2009 11:34 pm

Before you make this problem any worse the best advice I could give you is to get the dog to someone with a lot more experience than yourself to get it evaluated and come up with a good program for fixing it.

Gunshyness is always a man made problem like was mentioned above. In order to fix this problem you need to first be sure that you are diagnosing the problem correctly, and even more important is coming up with the right solution. The best chance of solving this problem and avoiding ending up with a very expensive but useless pet is to get it to someone that can absolutely read dogs well and has a lot of experience with problem dogs.

There is no problem so easily created or more difficult to cure.

Post by **kninebirddog** » Wed Mar 04, 2009 4:28 am

generally the softer a dog is the more likelihood of a dog that will be sensitive to sound and can become gun shy quicker then a bolder dog...

when you intro the gun to a dog it should be in total excitement and 1 shot and one shot only
I also am not a fan of Blanks they are much louder and sharper blast then that of a shotgun

So back to the drawing board
seeking someone that has experience in dealing with gun shy dogs would be the best plan

but if not it will take some prey drive the dog needs to be excited about birds and get them even ripping them of you can put it this way...if the dog isn't going to look at a bird gunshy will not be an issue then as they have to ahve some drive to be able to get over the gun

we will take pigeons and once we have them chasing the pigeons with pieces of cardboard attach to impede the pigeons flight one the dog is in full chase we will take the shot gun in the opposite direction about 100 + yards away from the direction then what the dog is running and in full chase of the bird pop off 1 round only

do a bird a day for a few days then work the shot gun in closer again opposite direction and Ps if the dog catches the bird all the better if the dog is excited about it

then once you are closr and closer besure you ahve no reaction to the gun before coming any closer

remember this dog will always need the extra care and only hunt with people who are not blast away yahoos as it will not take much to set them back again

good luck

bobman · Post by **bobman** » Wed Mar 04, 2009 6:25 am

aylaschamp wrote:
bobman wrote:I dont allow shooting of any kind around my dogs unless a bird is being chased or killed...not ever.

not even the old broke dogs that have had tons of birds killed over them

I'm not too picky about most stuff with dogs but this one is a big deal with me
Why is it such a huge deal to you?

Because I've done a lot of gun shy cures for people and shooting with no birds or fireworks have caused most of them.

If you stick to only shooting around a flushing bird the dog is focusued on and only shooting once ( meaning try to kill the bird with one shot so it falls in front of the dog if you miss let if fly off) until the dog understands that a shot means a dead bird the problem wont start in the first place.

Its a lot easier to avoid then it is to fix.

Its unorthadox but if the dog seems hopeless but likes to chase squirells you can cure in with them also I've done that with dogs that would flat run away at the mere sight of a gun.

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Wed Mar 04, 2009 6:39 am

What Bobman said is spot; a young dog should have a REASON for that loud noise to exist and make it a pleasurable experience.

The other think that keeps nagging at me is this comment "I bought a gunshyness CD and a fireworks CD and play it as loud as I can when she is in her kennel and these noises do not bother her. Play it as LOUD as I can. Could it be that you are causing this noise shyness problem? I would think that would drive a dog crazy; it would me.

snips · Post by **snips** » Wed Mar 04, 2009 7:19 am

I have a str here now that came gunshy and visably would avoid a bird from it. I kept her on birds until she realized nothing would happen if she got after one, so she eventually went wild pointing and chasing...good thing. I started at a distance with the blank as she ran down a bird and caught it. Only once a session. Was going good...Then I dropped a bird with 20 gauge in front of her. She stopped, then went on to mouth it. Next bird she avoided. So I got her chasing again and dropped one in front and she went to it and mouthed it. Next bird she would have nothing to do with:( It is a frustrating thing, and I will probably recommend he forget it on this dog. This has taken 2 months now, so I guess if someone has 6 months to spend on something that may or may not pan out on a dog, better off starting over. This dog showed all the signs of possibly getting over it to me....That silent gun may have some real value.

jkoehler · Post by **jkoehler** » Wed Mar 04, 2009 7:24 am

You are going to think I am crazy but what I am about to tell you I couldn't even believe with my own eyes.
About three years ago my brother in law got a Vizzla from his dad, in which he got it from a guy at work. It was one year old and was gun shy. My brother in law took it out hunting with us and did fine until that gun shot, ran right back to the truck. so over the course of a year he had purchased a cd that he would play in the kennel of a gun firing over and over again. I think the neighbors thought he was insane. That did not work. We would take the dog out and sure enought back to the truck it went. So my brother in law realized it wasn't worth feeding a dumb dog but didn't have the heart to get rid of it so his brother took it and thought he would breed it. (I know I know I went through that already with him about breeding this dog). Anyway, same thing would happen to him, in fact when we went to SD this year the dog went back to the trucks and stratched the heck out of the side of the trucks. I don't think I had even been so close to shooting a dog, if my cousins 14 year old son wasn't with us we would have been leaving SD one dog short. In Jan, the last weekend of pheasant season we hunted again together, however this time, shots fired and he kept on hunting. More shots fired, kept on hunting. After the hunt I asked if the dog had surgery to remove the ear drums and my brother in laws brother said a buddy of his dad told him to sprinkle gun powder on the dogs food and it will cure him of gun shy. He did this for about week, week and half and it worked.
Take it for what it's worth, but true story. By the way when the dog takes a "bleep", stay back the dog may backfire!
jk

WildRose · Post by **WildRose** » Wed Mar 04, 2009 10:15 pm

After the hunt I asked if the dog had surgery to remove the ear drums and my brother in laws brother said a buddy of his dad told him to sprinkle gun powder on the dogs food and it will cure him of gun shy. He did this for about week, week and half and it worked.
Take it for what it's worth, but true story. By the way when the dog takes a "bleep", stay back the dog may backfire!

I won't say you're crazy but the "cause" is definitely not related to the "effect" here.

Here is a similar corollary.

At least 95% of people killed in Auto Accidents in the US last year had consumed potatoes within 30 days of their fatal crash. Therefore potatoes cause fatal car crashes and should be avoided at all costs!

Neither "cause" is related to the "effect".

Some dogs simply get over gunshyness when they are ready and not before. Some, no matter what you do to "cure it" will remain ruined for life.

Something else is responsible for the dogs recovery, not eating gun powder! CR

mountaindogs · Post by **mountaindogs** » Wed Mar 04, 2009 11:15 pm

several thoughts
Personally if a dog is already gunshy - I do not like to start them with birds and noise together. Birds are my key to succsess and I don't want to throw that away too first thing...

I start with blank gun several hunred yards away as I am walking to let a pup or dog out of a kennel or feed. Ideally before they can see me. Just a distant sound. Then a few minutes later good time, no bird association. Then when I feel they are expecting me and seem excited I switch (if the dog is sensitive) to a kids cap gun. and let the dog see me, then shoot, then proceede as normal. Move a little closer to the kennel everyday. Only if the dog is confident, tail wagging and happy do I move in the next day.

Personally I think there is something to the visual aspect and maybe even the smell that adds to the fear for some. I also had a setter like that that shyed away from birds, and would also shy if you just carried a gun. Had to do the above forever, with kids cap gun only, and then in the field on bird chases carried the toy gun in my hand for days no pop, added in the pop after she was really driven on the chase and she did fine. Did this for a few days to let it sink in. Had to carry the blank 22 and she was shy of it looking at it only), but birds moved her out again, so gave her two sessions of this, then on 3rd session shot with the blank while she was WAY out. She did not even pay attention. Slowly shot as she was closer and the switch to the shotgun was smooth no fear...
Took about 2 1/2 months

jkoehler · Post by **jkoehler** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 7:02 am

Wildrose, Hey I don't know, all I know is that the dog will hunt now with gun shots were as over the past three years scared shitless. I can hardly believe that all of a sudden she seen the light! My vet believes it might have to do with a chemical inbalance that the small amount of gun powder provides to stimulate the brain....... like I said you don't have to believe me, just helping out a fellow forum member, something to try.....

daddyfid · Post by **daddyfid** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 8:58 am

Thanks for all the input! She is currently bird crazy. I pulled a few wing feathers out of a quail the last few day's and she loved the chase! She about pulled me over chasing so hard. I did not let her catch the bird. It would fly 20 yards and then hit the ground and run, and she chased. Do I eventually let her catch the bird to increase the drive or do I never let her catch the bird. Just trying to get it straight in my head without causing a bunch of other problems.

Thanks

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 9:50 am

Daddyfid -

You have been given the same sound advice by two expereinced dog men. I'll make it three.

GO SEE A PRO.

You already screwed the puppy up, and yes a 10 month old V is a big puppy. Keep it up and you won't have anything left to work with. There are times to mess with a dog and times to leave it alone. Obviously you are pushing this dog waaaaaay too fast and you don't know what you are doing. Give the dog a break....please.

I am sory to be so blunt, but you must understand...YOU CAUSED THIS...nobody else. Gunshyness is 100% man made in bird dogs. You obviously don't know how to fix it either.

Admit it and go get the youngster some help before it is too late. The dog deserves it.

RayG

jczv · Post by **jczv** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 10:20 am

Have you talked to the dogs breeder? If the breeder trains his own dogs you may be able to work with them. If they aren't local they may have a recommendation of a local pro to work with.

WildRose · Post by **WildRose** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 10:47 am

I can hardly believe that all of a sudden she seen the light!

Many years ago I had a helper gunshy a dog terribly. It was a 9mo bitch that had come into heat. She was in a small pen by herself. The helper found her scared sitting on the dog house with three rattlesnakes in the pen. Helper being an idiot panicked and grabs an 870 and goes to blasting for five shots.

This dog was so gunshy after that she would dig a hole and pee on herself if she herd us shoot a half mile away. For two years I tried absolutely everything imaginable to get her over it but to no avail.

One day about six years later we were hunting about a mile from the house. Dolly comes bounding in after we'd shot up a covey rise retrieving a bird to hand. She jumped in and joined us for the rest of the hunt. She never demonstrated the slightest bit of gunshyness for the rest of her very long life.

If you have a vet crediting the eating of gun powder for curing this dog you need another vet because yours, rather than a scientist is a witch doctor.

Modern gun powders are poisonous and can be highly toxic.

Post by **kninebirddog** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 2:31 pm

daddyfid wrote:Thanks for all the input! She is currently bird crazy. I pulled a few wing feathers out of a quail the last few day's and she loved the chase! She about pulled me over chasing so hard. I did not let her catch the bird. It would fly 20 yards and then hit the ground and run, and she chased. Do I eventually let her catch the bird to increase the drive or do I never let her catch the bird. Just trying to get it straight in my head without causing a bunch of other problems.

Thanks

right now I wouldn't care if she caught a bird but use a pigeon for this so if anything happens to go south it will be on the flying rat not a bird your going to hunt

just get her happy happy about birds again

once there is no hesitation
then go back in the field with an UNLOADED gun and do the same thing just having the shot gun in the picture but no shots

then when you go to intro the shots
have some one 100 plus yards away shoot 1 round in the opposite direction and only when she is in full chase of a bird that will be able to fly a good distance you want her in full speed mind totally locked on getting the bird

do that one time put her up then a couple days later do it again

then a couple days later do it again

as for whther you start to work the shot closer if she doesn't show any reaction to the one shot from a long distance away aimed the other direction for at least 3-5 sessions then proceed to 90 yards

rather go way to slow then way to fast specially when your learning this for yourself

once you get to about 50 yard then slowly proceed with bring the shot to a 90 degree so it is louder

then again when she shows no signs of any hesitation then blast one shot same direction up in the air

if at any time she shows hesitation BACK OFF go further away

does that make sense

reason i don't care at this point if she catches the bird specially once she starts to hear the shots is if she won't get over being gunshy her catching birds is gonna be mute anyways as you won't be able to hunt over her the way she is

there is no fast way over this
take it very slow
one session a day when you bring in the shot gun
do not push it beyond that it is very very important that the whole routine of bird and shot be fun and good so it is a rewiring process your doing

Sprig · Post by **Sprig** » Sat Mar 07, 2009 12:13 am

the 2 most critical things you need when working with a gunshy dog are alot birds AND patience....I just fixed a gunshy dog for a client and it took a month, a steady supply of birds and a whole lot of patience working with the dog a little each and every day. if your dog is crazy about birds then you are halfway there. do a little each day, not too much but just enough with the live birds and some soft shooting as the dog is doing short retrieves. only shoot a couple of times each session and keep that dog on birds the whole time each session. sooner or later the dog should realize that the birds are more exciting than the gun is scary.

did i mention......patience?

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