Got a BIG problem and need to nip it in the bud

[romeo212000]

I have a GSP that is coming up on 2 years now. I have heard of dogs challenging for pack leader around this age but didn't expect it in this form. This weekend my dog ran two braces. In the first one she made a nice point, I shot the bird and she retrieved it nicely. The second brace I shot two birds for her. She went and picked them up and then immediately proceeded to turn and haul butt the other way from me and eat the bird. Happened twice in this brace. She was blinking me and running from me. She has been force broke but I am questioning that now. Also in the earlier brace she made a big mistake and also was running from me and blinking me. I don't know how to handle this. Any help???

[Sharon]

Are you saying this only happens under trial conditions?

[romeo212000]

I am saying this is the first time it has ever happened.

[kninebirddog]

First thing how bad did you plaster the bird and is she eating enough....that can start a problem

But neither here nor there she also need to learn HERE means HERE. So I would work that let her get out free up move around and command here count to 1 and give her a reason to come to you not so high that she is squalering but not a light tickle eitherif she is used to working at a level 2 then start at level 3 THIS IS PROVIDED SHE IS COLLARED CONDITIONED. If she elects to blow you off after the count of 1 this means she is not making any attempt to head your direction get on her as soon as she is turning and coming to you stop stimulation is she starts to veer off give her a quick tap to steer her back in line

Very important when yopu do this you let them free up mpve around for a while before commanding again if you do tp many reps at a session you will defeat your purpose only do 2 maybe 3 reps in a session

Then You need to set up a trial situation and let her know that HERE means spin on a dime leave change and get her rear in gear headed to you the trial set up will mean a friend will be helping in chasing getting the dog along with you and drag her back to where you called her from once there set her up and just let her stand there next to you for a bit stroke her up and send her out again

Work on that she comes to you gets stroked up and then send out again

Those are some things

I am sure there will be some other things

But FF is only part of a picture she needs to know that coming to you is not a request it is a command

[gonehuntin']

First, it's an obedience issue.

Next, IS SHE COMING INTO HEAT?

If not, send her to a pro. That is very strange behavior indeed. Bird eating is something that NEVER just starts. There is always a reason.

[aylaschamp]

I think you need to make sure you feed her at least 4 cups of dog food or 3-4 quail before you run your brace! Knine took my thunder. HERE is a must for enforcement. Did you force fetch her or another trainer? Most reputable trainers will give a guarantee on FF?

[romeo212000]

I had a pro do it. But the more I talk to him the less impressed I am with him. I went back to the table today and did nothing but table work for about 15 minutes. I then spent about 5 minutes throwing a frozen bird for her and making her retrieve it %100 correctly and cut her absolutely zero slack. At one point she even decided she had had enough of the table and started to take off back to the house but I had her e-collar on and reminded her it's not her choice of when to quit. I think the biggest issue here is she is competing with me for dominance. That is why she took the bird and ran away I think. I am not going to shoot a bird for her for two weeks I think. All yard work and excercise with lots of obedience. If I see it once more this season I am pulling her until this fall. Should I try to re create the situation again by really blowing a bird apart to give me an opportunity to correct it? One thing I forgot to mention is it happened the day before when we were running. She had gotten out of bounds and another person threw a bird in front her thinking she would retrieve it to me back in bounds and we could go on. Well she didn't retrieve it to me. She ate it before I could get there. First time I had ever seen her do it.

[Dave Quindt]

Based on your first post, I wondered to myself if it wasn't pressure related. Based on your last post, I'd find it hard to believe that it ISN'T pressure related.

I think the biggest issue here is she is competing with me for dominance.

All of this is extremely dangerous stuff to discuss without seeing the dog, but to me it sounds like a pressure problem. But to be honest, none of the pros I've worked with, or any of the successful amateurs I know, ever think about "dominance".

That is why she took the bird and ran away I think.

Can't tell you how many extremely soft and meak dogs I've seen grab the duck in a NAVHDA UT duck search and sneak away into the reeds to use the duck as a chew toy. I've never once seen an increase of pressure solve the problem; usually makes it worse.

If it were me I'd put the dog away for 30 days; that means no 15 minute table sessions and no juicing the dog for bolting for cover. Take the pressure off; make it fun again and see what happens.

"More" is often not "better" and you can't solve pressure issues with using more pressure.

JMO,
Dave

[postoakshorthairs]

Had the dog ever been in a brace with another dog and/or handler in this kind of situation? Was the other dog close? The first thing I thought of...and may be way off..but I had a female who had always been hunted on her own. The first time I hunted her with another dog that retrieved first she tried to steal every retrieve and when that didn't work when she picked up her next bird she did what your dog did.

[romeo212000]

She has been in several braces before this one. This has never ever happened.

[snips]

I tend to agree with Dave. I would NOT be harder on the dog,but lighten up and do some yard work, on the "light" side with positive reinforcement. Without seein the dog, hard to call, but I would try getting the dog real happy about coming to you. Even in FF, I like a dog to come to me and get positive reinforcement. If you do this for a couple of weeks and the dog is sure of what you want, then I would shoot some birds over her. Have the ecollar on her and if she goes the other way just repeat Here and give a low nick. You are correcting Here, not the retrieve. When the dog gets to you heavy praise (with or without the bird). Next bird you kill, give a good Here and see if she does not come on in...Lots of praise.

[Coveyrise64]

If I recall on Saturday when he came into the gallery he headed straight for the food bowl at the back of a truck and was helping himself. He was then collared back to the boundry and then the bird was thrown which he promptly ate. He looks like he is under nourished. As for the other issues they look to be pressure related. When you came back in from having him picked up it was e-collar on, "whoa" "hear" "whoa" "hear", then the e-collar came off and it was back to the stake. During the mini training session the dog was in complete fear. You can't train one in between braces. From what I observed the dog isn't broke and should never have been entered.

JMHO

And now you know the rest of the story.....

Coveyrise64

[Scott Linden]

Based on your first post, I wondered to myself if it wasn't pressure related. Based on your last post, I'd find it hard to believe that it ISN'T pressure related.

I think the biggest issue here is she is competing with me for dominance.

All of this is extremely dangerous stuff to discuss without seeing the dog, but to me it sounds like a pressure problem. But to be honest, none of the pros I've worked with, or any of the successful amateurs I know, ever think about "dominance".

That is why she took the bird and ran away I think.

Can't tell you how many extremely soft and meak dogs I've seen grab the duck in a NAVHDA UT duck search and sneak away into the reeds to use the duck as a chew toy. I've never once seen an increase of pressure solve the problem; usually makes it worse.

If it were me I'd put the dog away for 30 days; that means no 15 minute table sessions and no juicing the dog for bolting for cover. Take the pressure off; make it fun again and see what happens.

"More" is often not "better" and you can't solve pressure issues with using more pressure.

JMO,
Dave

MO also, Dave.

I don't know what the behaviorists would call it but chewing/eating a bird could easily be a reaction to too much real (or perceived) pressure. There are human "stress eaters," why not canine? Maybe you could train to other skills, but nothing that reminds her of birds, retrieving, etc. I might think twice about feeding before the dog is run as a solution to a "hunger" problem, though, as there is risk of bloat/torsion. JMHO.

[postoakshorthairs]

I'm not familiar with the rules. Are you even allowed to use an ecollar between braces?

[romeo212000]

If I recall on Saturday when he came into the gallery he headed straight for the food bowl at the back of a truck and was helping himself. He was then collared back to the boundry and then the bird was thrown which he promptly ate. He looks like he is under nourished. As for the other issues they look to be pressure related. When you came back in from having him picked up it was e-collar on, "whoa" "hear" "whoa" "hear", then the e-collar came off and it was back to the stake. During the mini training session the dog was in complete fear. You can't train one in between braces. From what I observed the dog isn't broke and should never have been entered.

JMHO

And now you know the rest of the story.....

Coveyrise64

Yes Coveyrise she did go straight to the truck and try to eat some food. What you don't know is she will always eat. Perhaps she was a little hungry that day but this is nothing that has ever happened before. Observing what I saw I would say she wasn't broke either but as I said this is the first thing this kind of stuff happened. She is not undernourished. I keep a very close eye on that. I keep her a little trimmer than some keep their Shorthairs but her vet just gave her a perfect score on her weight and body mass. I admit I most likely made a mistake by handling things the way I did after the brace, but everyone makes mistakes and I was pissed. Like I said I am most likely going to pull her for the rest of the season and my consider sending her somewhere over the summer. I am becoming less impressed with the pro that trained her and may have to have someon else go through the whole process again.

[adogslife]

Pissed or not, you handled it wrong.
You punished the dog with the e-collar. This is a training issue, punish the trainer.
The e-collar is not a tool to take out fustrtation. You or someone screwed up the dog.

[romeo212000]

I agree that I handled it wrong. There is nothing wrong with reinforcing a little when you come off the field. Remind the dog with some light corrections but I admit I was out of line. The dog is not screwed up though I don't think. I think I may send her to John Hahn up at perfection kennels. I have heard great things about him. If anyone has any reviews pm me.

[Coveyrise64]

If I recall on Saturday when he came into the gallery he headed straight for the food bowl at the back of a truck and was helping himself. He was then collared back to the boundry and then the bird was thrown which he promptly ate. He looks like he is under nourished. As for the other issues they look to be pressure related. When you came back in from having him picked up it was e-collar on, "whoa" "hear" "whoa" "hear", then the e-collar came off and it was back to the stake. During the mini training session the dog was in complete fear. You can't train one in between braces. From what I observed the dog isn't broke and should never have been entered.

JMHO

And now you know the rest of the story.....

Coveyrise64

Yes Coveyrise she did go straight to the truck and try to eat some food. What you don't know is she will always eat. Perhaps she was a little hungry that day but this is nothing that has ever happened before. Observing what I saw I would say she wasn't broke either but as I said this is the first thing this kind of stuff happened. She is not undernourished. I keep a very close eye on that. I keep her a little trimmer than some keep their Shorthairs but her vet just gave her a perfect score on her weight and body mass. I admit I most likely made a mistake by handling things the way I did after the brace, but everyone makes mistakes and I was pissed. Like I said I am most likely going to pull her for the rest of the season and my consider sending her somewhere over the summer. I am becoming less impressed with the pro that trained her and may have to have someon else go through the whole process again.

I still say the dog is hungry, sure they will eat all the time if they aren't getting enough food. When you can count the ribs and see the hip bones the dog is under nourished. So right now, I'm not to impressed with your vet either.

Coveyrise64

[romeo212000]

There are an awful lot of dog owners that would disagree with you but I will try feeding her more and putting a little weight on her to see if that helps. Thanks for the tip.

[kninebirddog]

Thus why I asked in my first post
how bad did you plaster the bird and is she eats enough

I have had that happen one time where we did an all night ram jam drive and the dogs didn't get to eat much at all I had the second brace and woke up late
my second bird i shot was hit a weee bit hard ok i pulverize the bird but my dog didn't run away from me but as he worked his way towards me the bird dissappeared as he swallowed it...rest of the brace went ok ...but I still did some work with him afterwards

the biggest problem which no matter was her going the other way to eat the bird

i would still get on that so she doesn't think that going away from you is an idea to entertain

also about 30 minutes before a brace give her a 1/2 can of a wet dogfood or equivalent of some raw hamburger just enough to have the dog not feel hungry but also something that is easy digest

[Coveyrise64]

There are an awful lot of dog owners that would disagree with you but I will try feeding her more and putting a little weight on her to see if that helps. Thanks for the tip.

I suppose they told you the hungrier they are the better they hunt too. Walk up and down the line of truck out there and tell me how many bony dogs you see. If there are any they usually have more dogs than they can afford to feed.

Coveyrise64

[Elkhunter]

What about the Derby dog that ate a quail in a brace?? That happened to me this weekend. He caught the quail about 100-200 yards in front of me and was carrying it around for about 5 minutes, then simply ate it. The judge and I got a little laugh.

[gonehuntin']

Wow, there is a lot of skirting around issues here. Here's my take on it based on very scant information.

First, I'll assume to don't abuse your dog and she is well fed, but to me, that doesn't matter. When you command a dog to fetch, and even if that bird is blown to heck, IF that dog has been properly ff'd, there is NEVER a reason for that dog to not retrieve that dog to hand in an acceptable manor.

Next, it sounds like the dog's obedience is terrible. When I command a dog HERE, I expect that dog to spin on a dime, no matter what it's doing and immediately return to me.

I would NOT be working the dog with frozen birds. To me, that is a waist of time. Your problem is with hot birds and that's what you should train on. I never advise anyone to GO AROUND a problem. That is not fixing it and I can guarantee you, it will probably come back later and bite you in the butt if you don't cure it now.

Retriever trainers are a lot better at forcing dogs than pointing dog trainers are. My best advice to you would be to send that dog to a retriever trainer that also works with pointing dogs and have him re-obedience train and re-force the dog.

[Kiki's Mom]

Dont know how NSTRA works but I do know that in AKC use of the e collar during an event is strictly prohibited and is grounds for dismissal from not only your stake and being under judgement but dismisaal from the event!

Yes, Romeo you let your temper override your judgement and you may have set yourself back 30 days or so in training. I agree 100% with Dave...your problem is not dominance but instead is pressure related. Dogs are funny creatures...they tend to want to work better when the reward is going to be a positive one, ya know? Especially if they KNOW the drill yet feel that punishment is emminent regardless of what they do.

Coveyrise64 - easy on your critique of the situation...perhaps your frank assessment of what you saw would be better served in PM format to Romeo so that the two of you can discuss things privately. I'm sure his dog is not being abused just as I'm sure it was not your intent to make anyone think otherwise. JMO.

[kninebirddog]

helen in nstra there are no training or tracking devices allowed in the field you also can't not physically reprimand your dog in the field

when i first started NSTRA i watched a guy kick his GSP in a brace that judge came off the field and filed a report and that guy was suspended from NSTRA


anyways

can't loose control anything out of anger proves detrimental somehow

[utahmomof4]

What about the Derby dog that ate a quail in a brace?? That happened to me this weekend. He caught the quail about 100-200 yards in front of me and was carrying it around for about 5 minutes, then simply ate it. The judge and I got a little laugh.

Yeah, that happened to you and me both last weekend. Cat ended up burying hers rather than eating it.

[snips]

I think there is a huge difference in retrievers and pointing breeds, that said I think the training for them is also different.

[adogslife]

What would be different? They way they are trained or the time frame they are trained in?

[snips]

IMO, both. I believe Labs can take more pressure at a younger age. I have heard of instances of birddogs being sent to retriever trainers and being ruined. This of course is a generalization and not true of course in all trainers or all dogs.

[Dave Quindt]

I think there is a huge difference in retrievers and pointing breeds, that said I think the training for them is also different.

I agree completely.

I have the luxury of using a couple of pros with extensive retriever experience; both trained a 50/50 mix of retrievers and pointers for over a decade before splitting up the work and focusing on one or the other. Both have trained MH pointers, retrievers and spaniels along with NAVHDA UTIs and NSTRA CHs. As a result there is an extremely broad base of experience that they can draw on.

Both will tell you that they can use pressure much more directly with the average retriever than with the average pointer. While they've had a lot of success transferring some of the advanced retriever collar techniques like indirect pressure over to pointer training, they will also tell you that virtually all of these techniques need to be modified for pointing breeds as they handle pressure differently, and that there are some pointers who just can't handle even the most gentle collar programs at all.

IMO the last thing this dog needs is more pressure, especially from someone new. I wonder how much transition training the owner did with the pro that FF'ed the dog. Far too many people think that if they've paid for FF, the dog will be 100% perfect, every time. The dog makes a mistake; the owner blows his top and comes down on the dog out of anger and frustration.

This is an interesting thread, in the sense that some see the retrieving issue as "the problem" and "the problem needs to be addressed NOW” using force to demand compliance. Others of us see the issue as a symptom of a bigger problem; until you solve that problem (lack of confidence, not handling pressure well and a handler "training" out of frustration) the symptoms won’t go away. IMO, there are ways to certainly make this dog retrieve 100% of the time. The issue is that the core problem will just show up somewhere else; most likely in pointing. And there isn't a way to force a dog to point, much less to do it will style and intensity.

JMO,
Dave

[romeo212000]

Well I have actually made the decision to quit working her on birds alltogether for a while. I talked to a trainer who came recommended by some others I know. We spent about 2 hours talking about my dogs and where they were weak and how he goes through training. I am going to see him for a weekend and take both of my dogs to him and we will come up with a game plan as far as how to progress from here. Then I will send them to him for 2 months once I have started with the things he gave me. He is basically going to rehash the foundational things with them and build from there. I am confident in his honesty, and his willingness to help. I think the best thing for them right now is no more birds, and lots of excercise and fun till the trainer and I get together.

[BigShooter]

Good decision. Good plan. Good luck!

[gonehuntin']

That is a very wise decision. Few pro's know much about mouth problems and fewer amateurs.

Retrievers and pointing dogs obviously do train differently. The basic program is EXACTLY the same, it's the amount and type of pressure that differs. Most pointing dog trainers are behind the curve here and haven't caught up yet.

The type of pro Dave describes, that successfully trains a 50-50 mix, is the one I'd go to.

Now, here's the thing about pressuring this type of dog: he may have never had the correct pressure put on him in the first place, so here pressure may be the answer. In my years as a pro, I corrected quite a few mouth problem and was relatively successful in doing so. Some mouth problems can NEVER be cured, only controlled.

[CherrystoneWeims]

I'm going to add a little comment here about dogs eating birds.

I have a bitch who used to eat birds until she was FF'd. We figured out the reason that she did it was because she was very possessive of her birds. If she was on point and another dog would come to back her she would jump in, grab the bird, and eat it. It was her way of saying "My bird and you won't get it".

Romeo, you broke a cardinal rule of training dogs. NEVER train a dog while you are pissed off. Put the dog up and cool off. Then go out and train.

[myerstenn]

I dont believe this has anything to do with hunger .This dog is simpley trying to get away from a force fetch pressure situation Who ever tried to brake to ff never completed the job. The dog is simpley trying to get away from pressure. She needs to go back to the table and continue the process untill she does as required. It could take another 30 days untill she gives into doing it the right way.

[romeo212000]

I would tend to agree with you but I am going to let the trainer help me make that call, and help decide how best to approach it. 2 months with the trainer ought to do both of my dogs a world of good.