Sitting on "WHOA"

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kylenicholas02
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Sitting on "WHOA"

Post by kylenicholas02 » Thu Mar 19, 2009 8:10 pm

I have a dog that recently developed a issue I have been trying to correct without much success. First, shes a 1.5 yr old GSP. I started her on a board training whoa, then CC in yard, eventually to birds. Recently though after introduction to the collar she will sit on whoa or point.. Of course this is a no no.. I have been picking her up and setting her back everytime, styling her and then flushing bird or continuing yard training. Any suggestions how to fix this? Thanks
KN

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Re: Sitting on "WHOA"

Post by ohiogsp » Thu Mar 19, 2009 8:45 pm

Well, that can be from too much pressure. Or maybe she don't understand what you want. Has she been taught to sit? How much bird contact has she had? What kind of bird contact has she had?
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Re: Sitting on "WHOA"

Post by Ridge-Point » Thu Mar 19, 2009 8:48 pm

Has this dog been taught to sit before?

How does the dog react when you use the e-collar?

Are you using continuos stimulation or just a nick?

It's most likely pressure and confusion, or the e-collar is really bothering the dog. Some dogs do not react well to the e-collar and you may have to use other methods.

The first thing I think of is take the dog off training for a month, then pick it back up slowing and see what happens. Usually you would use the collar off birds first and if the dog was sitting then you would not put that dog on birds till you get it resolved.

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Re: Sitting on "WHOA"

Post by KY Grouse Hunter » Thu Mar 19, 2009 9:07 pm

Ok, I get this alot and here is my experience. To me when the dog lays down It is thinking that laying down has totally saved itself from any correction you might put on it. In other words, "If I am laying down, I know I cant be doing anything wrong". How I have fixed this is by putting an ecollar on the neck and another ecollar on the flanks of the dog. Mind you that the collar on the neck really shouldnt be needed because it is important that the dog fully understand the whoa command. On the other hand, When the whoa command is given and the dog lays down, you should have the flank collar stimulation low enough to "tickle" the dog back to its feet. Sometimes the dog will stand and if that happens you immediately take the stimulation off. If it stands and begins to move out of whoa, I would pick the dog up, and set him on his feet in the spot where you initially whoa'd him.

I've had good luck with this and it has not really took that many reputitions to get the point across. Hope this helps.
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Re: Sitting on "WHOA"

Post by ohiogsp » Thu Mar 19, 2009 11:05 pm

Are you shocking your dog on or around birds?
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Re: Sitting on "WHOA"

Post by Dwells » Fri Mar 20, 2009 4:39 am

Put the shock collar around the dogs waist. Make sure it is on a low setting and use the nick mode. A lot of dogs will sit when they are being trained to whoa. The stimulation with the collar around the waist will help prevent this.

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Re: Sitting on "WHOA"

Post by kylenicholas02 » Fri Mar 20, 2009 6:57 am

No I have never shocked the dog when she hits the scent cone, unless she needs correction (stepping forward etc) The dog was introduce to whoa without a collar and then the collar was introduce through the kennel command. I have never specifically taught "sit" but the dog will sit on command... great girlfriends huh? Anyway, I dont like the thought of applying two collars bc im afraid that could prepertualate the problem. Also I have been using a continuous correction if the dog doesnt stop immediately to whoa... Am I correct in this? I have no problem with my other pup doing this...

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Re: Sitting on "WHOA"

Post by ohiogsp » Fri Mar 20, 2009 7:15 am

kylenicholas02 wrote: Also I have been using a continuous correction if the dog doesnt stop immediately to whoa... Am I correct in this?
Here is your problem. There are other ways to go about fixing this but what you are doing I would never do. The bird is what teaches the dog to stop and point not you. Sure that may work on some dogs but they are all different. Do you have wild birds to run your dog on? You can also use launchers but your dog has to learn she can't catch the bird. This is the key and the reason dogs point. When your dog comes in on a wild bird it will flush or if you are using launchers you hit the button when that dog get scent. You may be able to train your dog to stand there when it gets scent but you will be alot better off and it will take less time the way I am talking about here. When your dog learns this he will stop and be stylish without anything from you and will stop sitting.
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Re: Sitting on "WHOA"

Post by birdhunter2424 » Fri Mar 20, 2009 8:13 am

ohiogsp nailed it. Get your launcher out and put the dog on the launcher as soon as the dog sits pop the launcher. It wont take to many times and the dog will figure it out.

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Re: Sitting on "WHOA"

Post by kylenicholas02 » Fri Mar 20, 2009 8:18 am

would you be opposed to doing this with pigeons or call back quail?
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Re: Sitting on "WHOA"

Post by kninebirddog » Fri Mar 20, 2009 9:07 am

we do most of our training on pigeons but specially when working on issues we will work pigeons

i will say through the Rick and Ronnie smith method of whoa post and then the flank collar would be the way I would work this issue out. that was the cue to stand still is learned before hitting the field that way if the dog should elect to sit on the bird the stimulation becomes a known cue to stand there and nothing more

even Delmar Smith newer Dvd's he has edited his old way of whoa post to one much like his sons version of today
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Re: Sitting on "WHOA"

Post by kylenicholas02 » Sat Mar 21, 2009 4:24 pm

Went to local trial friend's today to work pups. I firstly worked my younger and more consistent dog similar to how we talked about.. Here was the setup. I a 50 acres CRP field, I planted three pigeons in launchers and then two free. The launchers were the first several pts for both dogs. I work Marley (the whoa sitter) in on the first bird, she pointed from 35 ft, which was good considering scent conditions... I walked in front of her after having my buddy place a stake to prevent chase, and then launched the bird... Textbook, I two other times, and picked her up once... She never sat down. I was very pleased with her performance, and so. We found all 5 birds within 30 mins.. I did not shoot the birds as we are working on trying to prevent her from chasing the birds into the next county. She did great and I appreciate the advice. I look forward to hopefully getting her into a trial before the end of the season..
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Re: Sitting on "WHOA"

Post by gonehuntin' » Sun Mar 22, 2009 8:18 am

First, this is a very overblown problem. Even if a dog sits on planted birds, it's rare for them to do it on wild birds. In fact, I've never seen a dog sit on a wild bird.

Next, the launchers are the way to go. Movement is movement. When the dog sits, launch. Somtimes you can have several launchers there and each time the dog tries to sit, launch a bird.

The last method is to teach the dog to sit, then teach it to stand, all on leash. It's very easy to do and gives you an additional command for correction when the dog does it in training. It lets the dog KNOW when it's doing something wrong and gives it a way to correct it.
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Re: Sitting on "WHOA"

Post by mountaindogs » Sun Mar 22, 2009 10:01 am

I am still a little confused. I have trained a GWP through this issue, but I did not introduce the birds until that part was done. I think you need to challenge the dog on the whoa command more in the yard with non bird things and fix it there with the collar, until the dog understands sitting is NOT okay and does NOT take the pressure off. Food, treats, retrieving, kids running around, whatever gets the dog hyped up that is not birds. Address the "whoa" first and make sure they understand it. If they are sitting then they get part of the concept but not all. They get don't move in, but not don't MOVE at all. In the yard I would apply collar pressure constant and very low) as soon as the dog starts to sit and keep it on until you move in and stand the dog and can let go and they still stand. You will go through a period of the dog sitting and then starting to stand as soon as you move towards them and then they will start maybe squatting briefly and then correcting themself, and then when the issues is gone gone with the very most exciting things you can think of that are not birds, then I would move to the launcher idea.

But I have not dealt with the sitting issue much.

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Re: Sitting on "WHOA"

Post by ohiogsp » Sun Mar 22, 2009 3:08 pm

mountaindogs wrote:I am still a little confused. I have trained a GWP through this issue, but I did not introduce the birds until that part was done. I think you need to challenge the dog on the whoa command more in the yard with non bird things and fix it there with the collar, until the dog understands sitting is NOT okay and does NOT take the pressure off. Food, treats, retrieving, kids running around, whatever gets the dog hyped up that is not birds. Address the "whoa" first and make sure they understand it. If they are sitting then they get part of the concept but not all. They get don't move in, but not don't MOVE at all. In the yard I would apply collar pressure constant and very low) as soon as the dog starts to sit and keep it on until you move in and stand the dog and can let go and they still stand. You will go through a period of the dog sitting and then starting to stand as soon as you move towards them and then they will start maybe squatting briefly and then correcting themself, and then when the issues is gone gone with the very most exciting things you can think of that are not birds, then I would move to the launcher idea.

But I have not dealt with the sitting issue much.

Different train of thought here. I have done this backyard thing and pounded whoa into their head and just didn't like it. I think it is a waist of time and the dogs look better without it. The bird is what the teaches the dog to stand there not you. IMO. You don't even need to train whoa at all. I use a method like the west method where you train in the field and the bird does the training for you. You can do it different ways thats all.
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Re: Sitting on "WHOA"

Post by kylenicholas02 » Sun Mar 22, 2009 6:49 pm

My "sitting dog" went 5 for 5 and cleaned the forty acres in 25 mins. I was a proud dad today.. Now if I could get the young one to range out and find those birds, i'd be a really proud dad...Any suggestions to get a yr old pup to range out further? i actually think all the whoa yard work I did, might have been part of this problem
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Re: Sitting on "WHOA"

Post by limited out » Sun Mar 22, 2009 7:08 pm

kylenicholas02 wrote:I have a dog that recently developed a issue I have been trying to correct without much success. First, shes a 1.5 yr old GSP. I started her on a board training whoa, then CC in yard, eventually to birds. Recently though after introduction to the collar she will sit on whoa or point.. Of course this is a no no.. I have been picking her up and setting her back everytime, styling her and then flushing bird or continuing yard training. Any suggestions how to fix this? Thanks
A dog will sit when it feels pressure. Is it possible that you put to much pressure on her with the e - collar? If she started sitting after the e- collar, then I'd say that was the problem. I'm glad you got it resolved, and she is doing well for you now, but just keep that in mind in future training.

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Re: Sitting on "WHOA"

Post by connorj » Mon Feb 04, 2019 10:53 am

I am also experiencing this. Now we have limited opportunities for birds right now so yard and field practice have been emphasized a lot. She is pretty steady to the release command but again if she is walking towards me and I ask her to stop where she stands she sits. Is possible she still isn't understanding to stay standing vs sitting? Any tips for teaching this? I have used the flank rope and whoa post, rewarding with praise and food, but am trying to move off those and let her learn to whoa without any item around her waist.

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Re: Sitting on "WHOA"

Post by OhioVizsla » Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:29 am

Ohiogps hit it on the head with pigeons & pop boxes. As soon as the dog hits scent, pop the bird. The bird teaches the dog to stop, not your command, collar, or check cord. My 1.5 year old dog had over 300 pigeons popped over her before I started shooting any for her.

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Re: Sitting on "WHOA"

Post by slistoe » Tue Feb 05, 2019 8:19 am

connorj wrote:but am trying to move off those and let her learn to whoa without any item around her waist.
The dog is telling you that you are trying to progress too fast.

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Re: Sitting on "WHOA"

Post by Urban_Redneck » Tue Feb 05, 2019 8:31 am

I agree with ohiosp, let the bird teach the dog.

I would abandon setting the dog back. I don't think we get to the dog fast enough for the dog to make the proper association, it just adds confusion to the pressure,

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Re: Sitting on "WHOA"

Post by averageguy » Tue Feb 05, 2019 10:18 am

connorj wrote:I am also experiencing this. Now we have limited opportunities for birds right now so yard and field practice have been emphasized a lot. She is pretty steady to the release command but again if she is walking towards me and I ask her to stop where she stands she sits. Is possible she still isn't understanding to stay standing vs sitting? Any tips for teaching this? I have used the flank rope and whoa post, rewarding with praise and food, but am trying to move off those and let her learn to whoa without any item around her waist.
We have 2009 thread around a dog which is either long ago trained or not at this point, with many still responding to it.

And we have this recent post in the same thread.

On the latter. I teach Whoa first while standing the pup on a table. I stack them up, say whoa and take my hands away. If the pup moves I stack them up and try it again. The pup quickly learns to stand still and I use a clicker or marker reward to mark the correct behavior and then give a treat. Then we move to doing it on the ground, walking at heel, I stop and say whoa. If the pup sits, I stand him back up, no correction, I just stand him up and say whoa when he is standing. We progress to me being able to walk away from the pup standing at Whoa. Then I overlay a whistle command for Whoa, then we progress to me stopping the pup at a distance using the whistle.

I do all of this away from birds. I never use Whoa to get a pup to point birds, but rather down the road when the pup is ready to be steadied to flushing, flying and falling shot birds, I use the trained Whoa command to teach steadiness. I won't get in depth on bringing out the pointing instinct in my pups but when I do it is in silence with pup working the bird in a launcher and me observing in silence. Pointing and steadiness are two different subjects, best taught differently is my approach.

I think based on your post you are just working on training Whoa away from birds at this point.

I hunt my puppies on doves and waterfowl as well as upland birds, all at an early age. So I also train Sit as we have many hunting situations where the pup needs to sit early on in its hunting career. So I have worked through the sit vs whoa issue numerous times. It is easy, just requires you to keep standing the pup up if and when it sits on a Whoa command. Dogs are smart and easily learn the difference between a sit and whoa commands with consistency on your part. No ecollar is needed in these teaching phases of training sit and whoa.

I am unclear if you are using an ecollar at this point or not. Hopefully you are not as it is not needed at the stage I perceive you are at based on your post.

One thing that is common however is that if a person has poor timing when using their ecollar, they can confuse the dog by releasing stimulation when the dog sits on a whoa command and the handler is walking back to stand the dog up. The dog is incorrectly rewarded by turning the stimulation off when it sits which the dog then logically repeats as it worked before ... If that is happening here we need to know that and can post more to address it if that is the case.
Last edited by averageguy on Tue Feb 05, 2019 11:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Sitting on "WHOA"

Post by Trekmoor » Tue Feb 05, 2019 10:26 am

This thread interests me because all of my pups are very thoroughly taught to sit to several different commands and yet not even one of those pups has ever sat while on point . I train using wild birds.... pheasants, partridge , snipe and sometimes red grouse and I don't use e - collars or even a check cord …..the birds do almost all of the training for me.

I am not sure about what an e- collar might cause but I do think dogs can recognise a "set - up" situation when trained on pigeons or quail. There is always a tendency among trainers, especially beginner trainers, to think they know more about scent than a dog does ...so they correct the dog instead of letting the birds do the correcting. The pup/dog then might begin to try to avoid being corrected by the trainer ….so it does a pre-emptive strike …. and sits down !

Eventually, my own dogs will have been taught to sit to voice, to whistle, to hand signal , to flush, to shot and to fall of game …..but they still never sit while on point !

The O.P.s dog seems to have got the wrong message.

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