Force Fetch transitions

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Sat Mar 21, 2009 8:03 pm

I am force breaking a 4 y/o shorthair female, this is the first time I have used the smart fetch method overall it is going well, the other dogs I have FFd I have used a table and never taught a dog to sit and then went through the steps. She is reaching well and holding the dummy well, moving with the dummy well etc. I have started holding the dummy high and low for her to start reaching in a different direction. She reaches up well, but always seems to have a problem reaching down, she wants to lay down? She will grab the dummy then wants to lay on the ground? I pick her up and put her back then praise her, any suggestions? do I need to just continue with repetitons? Any ideas? thanks

Post by **kninebirddog** » Sat Mar 21, 2009 8:22 pm

sounds like your going to far down to fast

try bring the dummy to eye level then lower it a few inches below the muzzle for a few reps

then next reps again bring it up where she can see it then go a little lower then you did before

slowly work your way to the table

if i have one that is really bad about it i may start by taking a small rope and make a loop so that it goes over the cable and her flank

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Sat Mar 21, 2009 8:51 pm

I am not on the table I am doing everything from the ground and starting her in the sit position, but maybe you are right I probably need to move to the ground in smaller steps.

Post by **kninebirddog** » Sat Mar 21, 2009 9:12 pm

being in a sit position will also make it more natural for her to lay down her back end is already down to start reason I do not let my dogs sit when i am FF'ing is when they go to retrieve they willing be going to the bird so that is an upright position

but thanks for posting this as I am getting ready to trying to help a client who has a dog that lays down when she gets to a bird he just got her back from a friend who offered to FF the dog and had her out today to hunt ...I am going to ask him to find out what method the dog was worked with...this has me curious now hopefully will give me a place to start helping him

Anyways back on track when going to the ground by taking the shorter reaches lower and lower when your do get to the ground she will have been getting more reps of reaching for the bird with out laying down

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Sun Mar 22, 2009 8:12 am

The reason Evan makes a dog sit during force is for the control. It makes it easier for you because the it is harder for the dog to "squirrel" around on you. The second advantage is that when they sit, their entire body is angled up, thus their head and nose are naturally pointing up, which is what you want, because it makes the buck harder to spit out if the nose is pointed skyward. You can ff them from a standing position and with many dogs it makes little difference, but every once in a while you get a "dancer" and they are harder to control standing.

When a dog lays down, it is it's way of trying to avoid the response you are asking of it. The dog should NOT be laying down on you. If you continually have hold of it's training collar, I really don't see how it's laying down on you. You should never force by just grabbing the ear, always have the collar and ear in one hand and never let go of the collar in the early stages.

Once you are going to the ground with the dog and it tries to lay down, pinch harder every time it lays down and DRIVE it forward and out of the down position. It will learn that to lie down means pain.

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Sun Mar 22, 2009 9:36 am

She is trying to lay down when she is reaching low for the bumper, I do have a hold of her collar and ear, what I am saying is when she reaches real low for the bumper one out of three or four times she is trying to go ahead and lay down instead of sitting back up, and I have been holding the pressure on the ear until I pull her back to the sitting position and once she is were she needs to be then I praise her and release the pressure.

Post by **kninebirddog** » Sun Mar 22, 2009 10:58 am

Interesting ..but a dog doesn't retrieve while it is sitting down in a practical application of when you are hunting. I know his methd is highly regarded...but I can see for someone starting out where laying down can pop in the picture
and FYI talked to my buddy..the guy who trained his dog said he uses a form of delmar and evans...i just got off the phone.. That sounds just enough to be dangerous :roll: again reading and trying the first time no matter what method one will often miss little key clues or the tiny steps that the individual dog may need which books just can't cover it all only hands on experience can and then asking questions and learning get you the next step

i use the what the dog is doing as a gauge of where they are mentally in the training... I start on the table and then move to table and post when the pressure starts as long as I have control of the head the rest of the body is telling a story of where they are mentally with a post when they are trying to back up will lead to them sitting down that tells me they are still very much in resistance stage .. so when they are standing and taking the dowel they indicates to me the dog no longer avoiding the situation and I can then move to the next step

head turning clinching jaws backing up all tell me i still need to be at the very first step or at that same step i am at of before considering moving on ..or even maybe backing up a step or half step to get the extra step forward and that is even moving the dowel even an inch into another position

When your teaching a dog ...no matter what...the first time they are not going to know what your asking them to do

then they start to figure it out

then they do it a few times

then they try not to d it or try to do some thing else whether in whoa by trying to walk off for example you correct them and restop them
or in here they learn to come then they one time try and check out something else and then you recue them to come directly to you

no matter what ..for a dog to learn they have to go through some form of resistance/refusal before the command becomes fully learned...and how they learn is every time they do not do what is asked you set them back or correct them till they are doing what you want

FF brings that to the top level of a forced compliance but everything else still is some structure of getting a dog to do the same thing everytime it is asked

Just take smaller steps don't be afraid to back up to a step where things were going well if you have problems makeing a 6 inch move then back up to 1 inch or 2 inches..better tiny steps with good results then one big one and bad results

mountaindogs · Post by **mountaindogs** » Sun Mar 22, 2009 1:17 pm

When she reaches forward for the Buck, does she have to move for it? Doe she have to get up. I think she is lying down as a form of trying to rush to it and be as sumbissive as possible. I agree with baby steps. But in this case I would wonder if a bit of a change up would help. Try extending the reach (off the ground, not down) out infront far enough so she has to stand and step towards it. Then lower towards the ground from that same distance very slowly, if she has to step forward for it it will be harder to lie down and help her get that she is going to have to be ready to move for it.

mountaindogs · Post by **mountaindogs** » Sun Mar 22, 2009 1:39 pm

Retriever people often have a phase in the FF where the pressure is applied until the dog returns to you at heel. Pressure immediatly stops then and there is a delay before the give command is issued, so the dog does not develope a dropping habit at heel. This would eliminate the laying down at a later stage as the dog will hurry to get back to you and lying down is too time consuming. Obviously is is supposed to use very low continous pressure. I have seen this done, but I do not think it is for every trainer or every dog. It's alot of pressure if the dog is not very very driven to begin with.

Personally, I do not think I would worry about it. I would let the dog lay down if the want and then just mek them sit up again while "holding" and wait a few seconds to take it back reminding them that sitting is the position that you want for the return at least. Then when you extend the distance and they have to walk for it, I would immediatly have them heel with it and carry it after picking it up, so they have no time to lie downor have to be jerked up and move on so quickly they may drop it in which case you would correct for the drop... I think the dog would figure out on their own that laying down takes up to much time.

I had a dog that started to lay down and roll over on his side and whine with any pressure, after I KNEW he understood and had previously been doing well. He was trying to get me to move back and not have him move on to the next step, which I did thinking it was too much pressure. Every day for 3 days we backtracked more and more and he became more and more "sensitive" until I finally started to wonder if he was doing this on purpose to get less pressure from me. THEN I just applied the pressure all the way through until he stood up and took a step or two. I had to physically pull him up and forward, but resleased the pressure as soon as he took the step. He tried the laying down twice and then quit completely and jumped to the buck and did perfect. No issues after that. He needed to know that there is no "trick" that will make the pressure go away other than holding and carrying the buck.

It was my mistake, but I also believe it demonstrates how crafty the dogs can be at getting out of the training if they don't like it. FYI this dog play retrieved before the FF training very well, and is excellent and driven now also.

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Sun Mar 22, 2009 6:10 pm

ACooper wrote:She is trying to lay down when she is reaching low for the bumper, I do have a hold of her collar and ear, what I am saying is when she reaches real low for the bumper one out of three or four times she is trying to go ahead and lay down instead of sitting back up, and I have been holding the pressure on the ear until I pull her back to the sitting position and once she is were she needs to be then I praise her and release the pressure.

Then if you're forcing her on the ground, step on her inside front paw and say NO, SIT UP. She'll stop in a hurry.

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 8:18 am

I know I am not perfect but this is not the first dog I have force fetched just the first one I have used with this method, I THINK which is a big ? that I am reading her pretty well as I have done most of her training over the previous four years, she is not a hard head and leans toward the soft side, but takes training and pressure fairly well, I am moving very slowly since this is the first time with this method. Overall I feel she is coming along very nice, she will get up and move for the dummy, I will just keep giving her reps, and start her moving forward before moving lower with the dummy.

crackerd · Post by **crackerd** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 8:55 am

mountaindogs wrote:Retriever people often have a phase in the FF where the pressure is applied until the dog returns to you at heel. Pressure immediatly stops then and there is a delay before the give command is issued, so the dog does not develope a dropping habit at heel. This would eliminate the laying down at a later stage as the dog will hurry to get back to you and lying down is too time consuming. Obviously is is supposed to use very low continous pressure. I have seen this done, but I do not think it is for every trainer or every dog. It's alot of pressure if the dog is not very very driven to begin with.

Don't know any "retriever people" who do any of this, nor any who have to contend with a dog lying down as avoidance. Retrievers are taught "hold" before proceeding to FF, so why would the dog "develop a dropping habit at heel?" Also, the dog is *always* at heel via the ear pinch, even as it's driving ahead for the dowel. And continuous pressure went out with the Model-T when it comes to training retrievers with the e-collar. Speaking of which, force fetch is almost always done manually--i.e., with the ear pinch--before it's overlaid with the collar.

GH has given a good assessment throughout--wise to heed it, and Evan Graham's sequential FF methods. Andy, your last update sounds as if you'll have it squared soon.

MG

mountaindogs · Post by **mountaindogs** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 11:55 am

Well some of the trainers I work with (when I am training my lab) are "model-T trainers". Still using force to the pile and such which is continuous pressure. I do not like these methods, but they are still used.

I certainly connot speak for everyone, but the retriever training clubs (both) that I trained with discussed and taught he continous pressure, for several part of training.

The "dropping habit" is one of a myriad of issues that FF is supposed to help fix. But as with all training, especially FF, a dog will find the quickest easiest way to make you happy and that is also one of a myriad of issues that can be created if it is allowed. Just a caution. If the dog is already trying to lie down, it would not be surprise me to find that she tries other things as well. Also dogs return to heel for hunt tests and trials. Duck hunters do not have to have the dog return with the duck to heel. They have to leave from heel to get the proper line, but many hunters who do not trial or test prefer (as they have asked me to train that way...) a dog to "Front" with the duck like an obedience recall. Deliver the duck to hand and then promptly return to heel. I know I have seen many dogs from trainers zip back to heel, and certainly many do and can train and work this way. My lab is trained to return to heel, to either side with hand signals for which side, but my husband never does it in the field. He wants her to front with the duck, then return to her place in the blind quickly so as not to disturb other ducks coming in.

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 1:34 pm

The other avoidance issue she does is many times when we start a sessions she will turn her head, but she comes right around with just very little bit of pressure on the ear, and from there on seems to be fine.

Post by **kninebirddog** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 1:53 pm

before I will continue to a next step i will work through the same thing till i have no more head turning or jaw clinching or hesitation of opening mouth...I want to see the dog try and beat the pressure...that is when you can start to see that they understand what turns the pressure off when you get to the point then go to the next step.
if your starting off with that resistance then it hasn't been worked through..if you push past that point before getting it completely worked through your cutting a corner and it will show up in other areas

crackerd · Post by **crackerd** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 1:54 pm

mountaindogs wrote:Well some of the trainers I work with (when I am training my lab) are "model-T trainers". Still using force to the pile and such which is continuous pressure. I do not like these methods, but they are still used.

Mountaindogs, FTP is not done with continuous pressure--it's "Back!"-nick (collar)-"Back!" and then, third or fourth send, when the dog is en route halfway to the pile, a second "Back!"-nick-"Back!"

Nor is FF for retrievers about fixing mouth problems. Can it? Yes. Should it have to? No--retrievers as a whole don't have mouth problems. They don't have myriad issues that force fetch needs to take care of, either. Force fetching for retrievers is the foundation for having a handling dog--handling as in stopping, sitting and then taking a cast at 350 yards out on a blind retrieve, or getting cast past a tempting point of land when you want the dog to stay in the water on a blind.

Don't really know why you injected heeling and a dog's side or front finish into a discussion about force fetch and pressure. But if you're a field trialer, or run higher level hunt tests, you want the dog at your side because it's the most energy-efficient way of taking the bird from it, then resending the dog for the second, third or fourth bird down. Any dallying out front and then having to reposition the dog once it's delivered the bird eats up the dog's memory, which is crucial on multiple marks. Also takes its focus off the "picture" it's seen from the side when watching those birds go down, which the dog "mentally" reacquires when it lines up from the same place it's been sent from the first time.

If I'm goose or duck hunting, sometimes I'll take the bird from the dog vis-a-vis but most times I'll sit the dog at my side, take the bird, walk away a couple of steps, and command "Shake!" so the dog can unload its excess baggage without splashing water all over me or anyone else in my blind. (You also want to take this tack at FTs too as judges are none too keen on umbrellas for their score sheets on an otherwise dry day.)

But if the heeling position business was something to do with

If the dog is already trying to lie down, it would not be surprise me to find that she tries other things as well.

please explain.

MG

EvanG · Post by **EvanG** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 2:45 pm

ACooper wrote:I am force breaking a 4 y/o shorthair female, this is the first time I have used the smart fetch method overall it is going well, the other dogs I have FFd I have used a table and never taught a dog to sit and then went through the steps. She is reaching well and holding the dummy well, moving with the dummy well etc. I have started holding the dummy high and low for her to start reaching in a different direction. She reaches up well, but always seems to have a problem reaching down, she wants to lay down? She will grab the dummy then wants to lay on the ground? I pick her up and put her back then praise her, any suggestions? do I need to just continue with repetitons? Any ideas? thanks

Many of them want to lay down, roll over, squirm, spin...it's all bugging. One of the main reasons you see those progressive photos in the book, and on the DVD is to illustrate the need to control the dog's upper torso for this problem. It not only precludes most of it, but provides you with a ready tool to deal with it when it comes up.

Remember this?

With the three-finger loop under the collar strap, and the ear held between the thumb and forefinger, you simply follow the dog. But, if they try any of those avoidance behaviors, you have your handle; the collar. Straighten them right up and continue business.

Are you following the book, DVD, or both?

EvanG

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 3:08 pm

I am following the DVD, thinking I might need the book, I do not allow her to lay down and I do use the collar to put her back in position, she only does this when she is asked to take the dummy low from right in front of her. Maybe I need to only have her grab the dummy low when I have her moving forward for the dummy? It seems I might be setting her up to fail by having her reach low right in front of her?

EvanG · Post by **EvanG** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 3:55 pm

Slightly forward and down as you go. Follow the sequence on the DVD, and read your dog.

Force the issue. That's important at this point. When you say "Fetch" it isn't a request. It's a command.

EvanG

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 2:09 pm

Ok I got her moving forward and her attitude seemed much improved last night, the one thing I am doing that I have not seen you do is as I am getting her moving I just spin on the bucket, and we move for the dummy in a cirlce, this is much easier for me right now as I pulled a muscle in my low back about six weeks ago and it is still stiff, and it is hard on me to bend over and hold the collar/ear and get her moving for the dummy, do you see any issues with this?

mountaindogs · Post by **mountaindogs** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 5:14 pm

EvanG wrote:Slightly forward and down as you go. Follow the sequence on the DVD, and read your dog.

Force the issue. That's important at this point. When you say "Fetch" it isn't a request. It's a command.

EvanG

Yes

exactly

As to spinning - EvanG's input will add I hope,but I would wonder if a habit of turning (if I am understandting you) would make lining harder later?

mountaindogs · Post by **mountaindogs** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 5:37 pm

crackerd wrote: Mountaindogs, FTP is not done with continuous pressure--it's "Back!"-nick (collar)-"Back!" and then, third or fourth send, when the dog is en route halfway to the pile, a second "Back!"-nick-"Back!"

They use TT collar continous 1/2 during the transistion to collar during FF. They rurn to it on drive to the pile if the dog starts to balk. I can see that you don't agree with this. I don't like it myself but that is what they explained to me and I watced.

crackerd wrote: Don't really know why you injected heeling and a dog's side or front finish into a discussion about force fetch and pressure. But if you're a field trialer, or run higher level hunt tests, you want the dog at your side because it's the most energy-efficient way of taking the bird from it, then resending the dog for the second, third or fourth bird down. Any dallying out front and then having to reposition the dog once it's delivered the bird eats up the dog's memory, which is crucial on multiple marks. Also takes its focus off the "picture" it's seen from the side when watching those birds go down, which the dog "mentally" reacquires when it lines up from the same place it's been sent from the first time.

Because the method he is using starts in sit at the side heel and differs from the table method of standing across from the dog more like a front return. Or a halfway step between the twp at least, on the table as you are more in your dogs field of view.
and
Yes exactly. You would use a return to heel for trialing, and tests, as I said. But the poster did not tell us which was their goal. If you are going to be a hunter and not trial or test, maybe it would not matter as much to the poster.

All dogs test you during FF, trying to get you to back off a little or completely. The passive dog is maybe harder to work with than the direct refusal type. You should re examine the amount of pressure you are using and make sure the dog KNOWs what you want, but rarely should you lessen in. That was my example I gave. If they are starting out trying to lay down then I would say that is the type of issue you will see again. SO it was just an issue of knowing exactly what you want, and baby steps to the end result.

EvanG · Post by **EvanG** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 6:38 am

ACooper wrote:Ok I got her moving forward and her attitude seemed much improved last night, the one thing I am doing that I have not seen you do is as I am getting her moving I just spin on the bucket, and we move for the dummy in a cirlce, this is much easier for me right now as I pulled a muscle in my low back about six weeks ago and it is still stiff, and it is hard on me to bend over and hold the collar/ear and get her moving for the dummy, do you see any issues with this?

It will serve the purpose briefly, but soon you'll need to get moving in line. In this excepitonal case, I think you would be well served to go ahead and CC-to-"Fetch" at this point as you see it done on the DVD. That will allow you to stand up straight while performing Walking Fetch, except for an occasional correction early on that may require an ear pinch.

Once the initial conditioning to Fetch is going well, switch to nicks. For most dogs a nick will tend to illicit a sharper response than continuous. In fact, once my dogs are CC'd to fetch, the only time I use continuous is for Water Force in the early stages.

EvanG

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 6:51 am

Ok sounds good, the only reason I move in a circle is to just start her moving I did not plan on trying to finish this way I will begin the E collar transition then walking fetch. thanks

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Tue Mar 31, 2009 7:51 am

UPDATE:
Grace has made good progress, she is moving forward and picking up the from the ground without me touching it or the rope, she has not been attempting to lay down, but still is not as happy about doing it as the lab in the in the DVD. I know it is different for every dog but when should her attitude about FF improve?

Post by **kninebirddog** » Tue Mar 31, 2009 8:19 am

basically
attitude improves when the dog stops any signs of resistance and as a complete understanding of what is being asked and when what is asked become routine

crackerd · Post by **crackerd** » Tue Mar 31, 2009 10:47 am

ACooper wrote:...still is not as happy about doing it as the lab in the in the DVD. I know it is different for every dog but when should her attitude about FF improve?

kninebirddog wrote:basically
attitude improves when the dog stops any signs of resistance and as a complete understanding of what is being asked and when what is asked become routine

That's one way of assessing it, and not a bad one. Another perspective is that some dogs' "attitude" never picks up during force fetch.

A third way of interpreting it is that FF is taking the dog's attitude out of the equation, simply that the dog must comply with what you're willing it to do or face the consequences. Consequences being the ear pinch, most dogs will try to "beat you" applying the ear pinch in reaching for the buck or dowel. That's good attitude in my book, so good that you're literally having to hold 'em back till you issue the command "Fetch!"

And most of them run contrary to what mountaindogs asserted about "every dog test(ing) you during FF," that's as wide a generalization as can be made. I've probably FF'd more breeds than anybody on this board, if not in my time zone. Some dogs get mighty compliant by the second pinch. Why? Because you've applied the ear pinch through imparting a force fetch method that they are quick to understand. The quickest is having already taught the dog the hold command--92 percent of FF right there--before ever transitioning into or going ahead with force fetch. Again--and whatever the gundog breed--that's the best tack for FF leading into it.

MG

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Tue Mar 31, 2009 11:51 am

I figured that over time she would improve, the Lab on the DVD just seems really enthusiastic, now my female at times is having to be held back from the fetch until commanded but not always, and when the command is given and pressure applied she is starting to really hop to it, but she still doesnt seem happy about it and when we first start a sessions she still does the head turn avoidance stuff.

Post by **kninebirddog** » Tue Mar 31, 2009 12:11 pm

stay with that step until she stops turning her head or the other one is clenching jaws even if she eventually does it ..until they stop the small signs of resistance you really don't have complete complaince

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Fri May 01, 2009 8:08 am

Well it has been awhile and she still isnt done but we are making progress again, it seems when transitioning to the e-collar, she struggled with the concept and the wheels came off a little, we are now moving forward very well again, we are working on going to and picking up the dummy and returning, my order from LCsupply should be here monday and we will begin the force to pile. I have been taking her slower and have returned to previous steps if I think she is losing confidence.

snips · Post by **snips** » Fri May 01, 2009 8:43 am

mountaindogs wrote:When she reaches forward for the Buck, does she have to move for it? Doe she have to get up. I think she is lying down as a form of trying to rush to it and be as sumbissive as possible. I agree with baby steps. But in this case I would wonder if a bit of a change up would help. Try extending the reach (off the ground, not down) out infront far enough so she has to stand and step towards it. Then lower towards the ground from that same distance very slowly, if she has to step forward for it it will be harder to lie down and help her get that she is going to have to be ready to move for it.

This is the ticket...I do not make any dog SIT while FFing...That is a Lab thing, IMO. I do not worry about laying down (just hard on your back if no table)...I just make them reach a little at a time while pinching the ear, they will find out it is easier to move foreward standing. When their mouth is on it I would raise them up to sitting to praise and hold. It is just a stage of trying to get out of it :roll:

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Thu May 07, 2009 8:36 am

We have progressed to force to pile, her attitude over all has improved. We do real well for a little while and then she pulls the old acting like she doesnt know whats is going on anymore, a little reminder and we are back on track, training at this point is beginning to resemble the dogs I have FF in the past, but with this dog it seems to be a more difficult transition to the e collar.

snips · Post by **snips** » Thu May 07, 2009 8:47 am

"we do well for a little while" might be the thing. Make it short, do not keep laying it on, some dogs short cuircut and cannot handle alot. Just a thought.

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Thu May 07, 2009 11:14 am

I try to keep my sessions short and positive, yesterday we went through two pile drills perfectly on the third she lost it a little bit, then the fourth was better and we stopped. Is that many pile drills to many?

snips · Post by **snips** » Thu May 07, 2009 2:16 pm

I do not do pile drills. I just do several retrieves a session if they are doing it right. If not I will do it until I see several right or improvement, then stop.

Post by **kninebirddog** » Thu May 07, 2009 5:56 pm

ACooper wrote:I try to keep my sessions short and positive, yesterday we went through two pile drills perfectly on the third she lost it a little bit, then the fourth was better and we stopped. Is that many pile drills to many?

Why did you go to the fourth

if you get one real good QUIT do that for a few sessions or days till every time the results are consistent
then go to 2 reps the QUIT do that where it is consistent every time
then go to 3 till consistent every time

people are all to much on pushing to far and they push it to failure

quitting on the good notes is far more important to getting the training done then trying to rush it

Sorry but I am trying to help you see a key point in training where a good thing goes/went bad

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Thu May 07, 2009 8:27 pm

I went to the fourth because the third was a little shaky part way through and I wanted to end on a positive note. Today we did three piles all perfectly to hand with out any hesitation.

Post by **kninebirddog** » Thu May 07, 2009 10:14 pm

Just take it a little slower till you have the smaller steps a little more solid but there is a time where they have to take that next steps and you have to do that follow through

hard to try and put all the pieces together when you aren't there to really see what is going on

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Fri May 08, 2009 7:00 am

I appreciate all the insight and will continue to post her progress, she has been more challenging to FF than her mother was, but I do like the smart fetch process overall better than the toe pinch and table that I put her mother through 6 years ago, once I get her complete (if ever, haha) I am going to try the smart fetch ff method without the dog sitting.

Post by **kninebirddog** » Fri May 08, 2009 7:17 am

ACooper wrote:I appreciate all the insight and will continue to post her progress, she has been more challenging to FF than her mother was, but I do like the smart fetch process overall better than the toe pinch and table that I put her mother through 6 years ago, once I get her complete (if ever, haha) I am going to try the smart fetch ff method without the dog sitting.

when starting I use a little of the toe pinch for point of contact but I really work the ear ..I like having control of the head but Hey I finally found another use for my tri tronic...or maybe even My dogs prefer tri tronics

Sorry I just can't resist this one

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Mon Jun 08, 2009 9:32 pm

So it has been awhile since I updated progress, the dog is doing piles with enthusiasm. Seems to take it all in stride, rarely needs any corrections. BUT I have not moved to birds yet, that will be the next step and will happen in the next week or so. At this point I have also moved away from sit and it seems to be less confusing for her. So far so good.
I have taken much more time with this method and this dog than I did with her mother and the toe hitch, but her attitude and enthusiasm up to this point are worth it, I just hope she keeps it up.

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Tue Jun 09, 2009 5:26 am

ACooper wrote:I try to keep my sessions short and positive, yesterday we went through two pile drills perfectly on the third she lost it a little bit, then the fourth was better and we stopped. Is that many pile drills to many?

Really, when you ftp, you only force to one pile. You can force to three if you want to, in the shape of a T, but it isn't necessary. It doesn't matter if the dog is happy doing it or not; this is about them having to do it. The fact that they do it, happy or not, is what you are after.

A GSP is no lab; they will rarely look as enthusiastic as a lab when doing rote work. Don't even expect it.

Remember also that you started with an older dog, not a pup, and that makes any training slower and a little more difficult. Evan's program is the best out there and it's the one that most dog trainers have been using for 60 years. It is a very well tested program.

It sounds like everything is coming fine. Let the dog come but don't expect the enthusiasm and performance of a retriever from her.

Are you goint to teach her hand signals and handling or why are you forcing to multiple piles?

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Tue Jun 09, 2009 6:23 am

maybe that post wasnt clear I was not doing three piles at a time, we did a drill to one pile three times. Since then we have shortened the sessions further and only do one or two.

No I wont be teaching hand signals I dont have a need for them.

Also an honest question, why can I not expect her to retrieve with enthusiasim when finished?

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Tue Jun 09, 2009 5:11 pm

ACooper wrote: Also an honest question, why can I not expect her to retrieve with enthusiasim when finished?

When FINISHED she will, during she won't. German dog's are horrible rote dogs; they hate repetetion and doing anything that isn't their idea. Ain't like training a retriever.

I put about 9 bumpers in a pile and force them to that. Once she has been forced to a pile under duress, DO NOT continue forcing her to the pile. It's a tool to use later.

Sprig · Post by **Sprig** » Tue Jun 09, 2009 7:51 pm

getting a dog to pick up off the ground is the hardest part of FF and some dogs will try and lay down to try and get out or ovoid the pressure. just calmly lift her up with her collar and keep going. dont make a big deal out of it or you may make matters worse. i see this sometimes with clients dogs and if you keep going and just lift the dog up and dont make a big deal out if it eventually it will go away when the FF is over. its just the dog trying to deal with the pressure and if the FF is done correctly it will work itself out.

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Thu Jul 09, 2009 10:38 pm

Started forcing two more dogs tonight, this will be the fourth and fifth dog I have put through FF, they will be the second and third that I will use the smart fetch method, except this time we will not work from "sit". Everything else will be the same. Started hold tonight both of these dogs accepted the dummy much better than the female talked about previously in this post. BTW she is doing fantastic great enthusiasm and desire, just need the temp to break a little so I can shoot some more birds for her.

snips · Post by **snips** » Fri Jul 10, 2009 6:25 am

I have changed my method in the last couple of years in trying to shorten the time it takes and I would never change back now. I am only doing Hold one day, til a dog is comfortable holding the dumbell in their mouth, then start ear pinch next day. I then teach the Hold in conjunction with the Fetch command. Pretty easy. Each time they grab the dumbell I just reinforce Hold with my hand under chin and stroke their head. It seems to really calm them.