NAVHDA NA tracking

[rkelly]

I am testing my pup in May in the NAVHDA NA test. I have never worked much on the tracks. I took her out today and tested how she would do on a pheasant. Well to say the least she immediately went into search mode and did find the bird but there was no tracking. Just wondering how you go about getting the dog to successfully track? She points great, loves the water and hunts hard, but just doesn't seem to have the patience to track.

[original mngsp]

lay down a trail of hot dog bites. That will keep her nose to the ground and keep her focused on the track.

[snips]

I like to drag a quail (leave feathers at start). Then at the end have a live planted bird that will fly off. Keep her on a CC first couple of times and give her head, only help if she goes WAY off. Do not talk but to give a Find command (or something). I do ot like to do it too much, just til they get the idea.

[Ruffshooter]

I am not one for the hot dog thing, but in similar manner: I will make short tracks in succession.

Have 3 live quail,feathers at the start for a couple yards, drag them out 10 yards first one, Plant it, second one at 25 plant it, yards third at 45 yards plant it, dog on a check cord walk roughly the drag, By the third one they are starting to get it. Then you can move to chuckars and pheasants but spread the distance out. You need only do this a couple days. The trick is to get a dogo to track a bird that has enough gumption to be airborn for twnety feet or so. The pup needs to have focus. To get focus you get them to understand that if they can keep on the smell they will find a bird. (No Talking to the pup during the exercise, just your release or track command.). That is how i get one started. Some have the focus already and you just need start out with short runs, I still drag the first couple of birds so I have control of where the bird goes and how far. (Just how I do it.)

[gonehuntin']

I also don't drag the bird behind me or they'll just track you. Put the bird as a dropper and a long line and you and a partner each take one end of the rope and lay the track.

Don't let the dog run wild. Keep it on a cc and everytime it tries to take off, reel it back in and put it back on the track. You want the dog to track methodically for the best score.

[adogslife]

The track is not judged on how the dog finds the bird-head up,nose down,running cross wind- as long as the dog finds the bird and has some purpose. The dog does not have to point it.

[BDBUzi]

The track is not judged on how the dog finds the bird-head up,nose down,running cross wind- as long as the dog finds the bird and has some purpose. The dog does not have to point it.

You're correct that it doesn't matter how the dog tracks the scent, but you will receive a low score if the dog is clearly seaching for the bird and not following the scent.

My pup got a 3 out of 4 on the NA track last fall.
He started down the track, and then lifted his head and went into search mode. I said nothing to him (except the initial command) and simply looked in the direction the track was laid. After a few seconds of searching, he circled back around to me, (the start of the track) picked up the scent again and went straight to the bird.

I started his track training with hot dogs around the yard. Then a frozen bird, then a live pheasant attached to a long pole so I could be sure he wasn't tracking my foot scent.

Good luck on the test.

[Ruffshooter]

You may not be not judged on how the dog holds its head or how far off the track he is but following but the dog needs focus and needs to be tracking and not searching. Two of my dogs track well down wind at break neck speed the other two are nose on the track, one other is a circle tracker. Search and track combo.

Also you may not need to find the pheasant, and not need to point the bird to pass, the track, however, there are many times stuff happens in the field part where a dog only gets one or two points (say one good work one not so good) due to birds leaving the field or not going in an area of birds or being down wind of a bird and a point on the found bird as a result of the track only helps in your pointing scores if the judges see it. So there is more work to judge, goood or bad.

[rkelly]

Thanks for all the suggestions. I am going to get some birds this weekend and give it another try. I didn't think she would have much trouble tracking because when she was young used to hunt some with her head low, but as she has gotten older hunts with her head high, which I prefer. I am sure she will get it with enough repitition.

[griffgirl]

You being in Minn...Im in Wisconsin I started to bring my pup out to the game farm in the Winter (at a young age) and put him on fresh tracks in the snow.

I never used a hotdog just fresh,live birds.....They have alot of scent when released for the track.The pointing at the end of your track will add to your score
for pointing and makes the judges smile

At my little guys NA track the bird jumped 2x's and flipped around 1x and then ran.Wind was about 25 - 30 miles an hour during my test.

I wouldnt over do the track before the test.

JMO....I would rather have the dogs nose down than up so the judges wont think the pup is searching/catching the scent in the wind.

I wouldnt train the pup either on cross wind.Run the track downwind.

Cross wind is for the search part of the test and they WILL run your dog cross wind for that part.

There was a little Shorthair at my test and it was very clear the dog was in search mode and they let him do the track over and again the dog did a search.

Now after the test the guy ( who was kinda upset) told us that he never did any kind of tracking work for the test because he didnt see the need for a track
I asked ....what's he going to do when he just wings a bird hunting and the bird is running ? No answer........

[Ruffshooter]

The judges know when a dog is tracking or searching.
The judges will not run a track only into the wind. In fact the bird runs al over the place. The judges only try to keep the bird moving away from the break away. Wind swirls, changes direction, stops etc.
A cross wind track is when the dog decides to go down wind and run the track. In fact unless there is no wind, dead calm, most dogs high head or low head will very seldom be right on the track. The dog many times will loose the scent for a brief period and will run off the track search a little until they pick up the track again. This is acceptable as long as the search is to get back on the track. Very common, fun to watch. Train for it in the sense don't worry to much a bout the wind.
The judges know what they are seeing even if you don't.

[adogslife]

A live track is not the same as a drag.
A drag is all about cooperation,it's okay if the dog tracks human scent.

[Ruffshooter]

Who is saying the track and drag are the same?

[adogslife]

The original post was about the NAVHDA NA and you have 3 replies about dragging quail and leaving it. The scent cone is much different from a drag then a live track and a track is judged differently then a drag.

[Ruffshooter]

Obviously you do not understand do please let me clarify. The quail and chuckar and pheasants being dragged are alive. Doing it in this manner gives you control over the bird and allows you to help your dog on the first few with the check cord. Then you move to a free running bird. The dragged LIVE BIRDS are used to help control the situation and to help teach the pup some focus and can give you a point to work at the end and the pup learns that at the end of the scent trail there is a bird, which helps build his or her desire to follow the track. We are talking about training techniques which help get a dog focused and to succeed and not leave it to chance. Build on success.

The scent cone is developed by the scent of the animal live or dead or object and the wind if any. Yes a dead bird smells stronger and different than a live bird. So the scent cone is not different the smell is different and stronger on the drag.

So now you should understand.

[adogslife]

Thank you for attempting to make that clear.
You are the only poster that mentioned dragging a live bird.Your method is the same as a dead game drag and you have not presisly explained why you choose to use live birds to drag.Are live birds easier to control?
So, no, I don't understand your logic.

I have found there are better ways to teach focus on tracks/drags but to each his own.

[Ruffshooter]

Let me try again. To train for the trackof the live bird, I control the live bird where it goes where it ends up. The pup tracks the live bird that has live scent that is left on the ground and in the air. At the end of the pups track there will always be a live bird in those controlled situations. The next time the pup is set up on the track of a live bird it starts to understand that there is a reward at the end which is the live bird. When you do this just a few times the light comes on and you know you are ready to do a free running bird. The live bird is easy to control when you have it tied to a rope and pole. You may want to read Snips post again.

Sorry for being so unclear. I have explained a tried and true method to get a pup to focus on the track that is easy to do and control.

I am done. Thanks for helping me to articulate my and others method.

[adogslife]

When I posted that a track and drag are different it was b/c a poster mentioned tracking human scent. During a drag this is not an issue. A drag is about cooperation and nose is not judged.I don't think it is an issue at NA either. There's got to be a lot of human scent as well.
There is as much scent in a dragged live bird. Makes no difference if a live or dead bird is left at the end of the track.
You could drag a bumper and leave it at the end.
My point - doesn't matter if you drag live or dead, or a toy, you can't teach a dog to have a good nose, to be cooperative or to track.
The dog is or is not born with it. The tracks and drags in NAVHDA are not long enough to judge whether a dog has the focus or cooperation needed to stick with when the going gets tough.

[PrairieGoat]

My point - doesn't matter if you drag live or dead, or a toy, you can't teach a dog to have a good nose, to be cooperative or to track.
The dog is or is not born with it. The tracks and drags in NAVHDA are not long enough to judge whether a dog has the focus or cooperation needed to stick with when the going gets tough.

I certainly agree with your methods, not so sure I agree as whole-heartedly with your conclusions. If your ascertains are correct, then you can take any dog with a good nose (or any other set of "good" traits!) and throw him out at a NAVHDA NA tracking test and have him do just fine. That is definitely not the case, and even NAVHDA warns handlers not to fall into this trap. A dog may have the best nose in the world, but he still needs to understand what is expected of him. To do this you need to introduce him to the concept of tracking.....shouldn't take much if the dog has a good nose and is cooperative (with a bit of smarts thrown in!). I've done it with dead birds, 1/2 frozen birds, bumpers with bird skins attached, bumpers with scent squirted all over them, etc. all with excellent results. About the only thing that I haven't used is a live bird (for one reason or another never available when I needed them or inconvenient)!!! As I said, all they need to understand is the concept....worked well for me thus far...

Randy

[griffgirl]

The judges know when a dog is tracking or searching.
The judges will not run a track only into the wind. In fact the bird runs al over the place. The judges only try to keep the bird moving away from the break away. Wind swirls, changes direction, stops etc.
A cross wind track is when the dog decides to go down wind and run the track. In fact unless there is no wind, dead calm, most dogs high head or low head will very seldom be right on the track. The dog many times will loose the scent for a brief period and will run off the track search a little until they pick up the track again. This is acceptable as long as the search is to get back on the track. Very common, fun to watch. Train for it in the sense don't worry to much a bout the wind.
The judges know what they are seeing even if you don't.

They ALWAYS run the track downwind in a NA test.Ive never seen one run INTO the wind.I really dont think that would be a track then.

Yes, if the bird takes a turn on you in your track that would be OK to the judge because they are the ones watching the bird run off......

[adogslife]

PrairieGoat,
not sure how you concluded that I said any dog with a good nose will do a sucessful track.

I said that the dog either has it in him or doesn't. There are several traits needed to do a track, a good track. One of them is prey drive. A nose without drive is a lost cause. The dog has to want it, really want it, to stay focused, and to not give up.
One of my dogs,at 15 months old,first event of the day, did a 300m rabbit drag through 4' high grass, delivered to hand and recieved a 10/10. All the others dogs at the test had flat grass.

[Ruffshooter]

Respectfully Griff; Sorry, you may have not seen a cross wind track but there are. So ALWAYS is to finite. One site we set our test at the wind almost always comes up the hill, the length of the fields. The judges ALWAYS run the track cross wind because that is the only way they can do it at this site. In a perfect world always into the wind would be easier.

[bmacinok]

One thing you also need to do for the track is to actually use live birds (pheasant) running on different terrains. One NA test may use the pheasant in grass 10-12" tall, and another may use it on ground that is close to bare. You may have no wind on the day of the test or you may have 20-30 mph winds. An actual drag in tall grass will give you much more scent than a pheasant hopping around in very low grass, so you need to have had your pup exposed to varied situations and attuned to the worst (low grass, high wind). If you pull the flight feathers of the pheasant, tie on a long length of cord (something small but 20' long) then you can release the pheasant and if the dog doesn't find and retrieve the bird you can locate it and reel it back in, to be used on another tracking test opportunity.

bm

[griffgirl]

Respectfully Griff; Sorry, you may have not seen a cross wind track but there are. So ALWAYS is to finite. One site we set our test at the wind almost always comes up the hill, the length of the fields. The judges ALWAYS run the track cross wind because that is the only way they can do it at this site. In a perfect world always into the wind would be easier.

To me doing a track in crosswind isnt a track.....its search.

[Ruffshooter]

There is scent layed by the bird in a line. In order for the dog to follow the track they have to move forward in the direction of the scent, still. Running a cross wind is not running into the wind and is still testing the dogs skill.

[Windyhills]

My point - doesn't matter if you drag live or dead, or a toy, you can't teach a dog to have a good nose, to be cooperative or to track.
The dog is or is not born with it. The tracks and drags in NAVHDA are not long enough to judge whether a dog has the focus or cooperation needed to stick with when the going gets tough.

I certainly agree with your methods, not so sure I agree as whole-heartedly with your conclusions. If your ascertains are correct, then you can take any dog with a good nose (or any other set of "good" traits!) and throw him out at a NAVHDA NA tracking test and have him do just fine. That is definitely not the case, and even NAVHDA warns handlers not to fall into this trap. A dog may have the best nose in the world, but he still needs to understand what is expected of him. To do this you need to introduce him to the concept of tracking.....
Randy

After one experience with NA, I couldn't agree more. Had someone with a great deal of NAVHDA knowledge (actually a NAVHDA Judge) evaluate a pup of mine and tell me not to work on tracking with it--it followed a live bird track right to the bird a couple of times for her, one where the bird circled a fair amount and my dog stayed still stayed on the track well.

I ran it in a mock test and it did OK--3 out of 4 likely, they told me.

Then in the actual test, the bird was put down and promptly hopped/flapped from that spot a good distance and then ran. there was no track from the start to follow, whichI believe messed my dog up, had a perfect score going at that point and ended up with a Prize 3.

In hindsight, had I simptly done some training to insure I knew the dog knew a seperate, distinct tracking command and then set out to find a bird via ground scent, I think it would have gone much better.

The other thing I noted from my experience was that if possible, I would train for water work in a variety of water locations. It was extremely wet for our test so they had to move the test grounds, and used a road ditch with fairly steep sides instead of a normal body of water. Just a few feet in the water was deeper than most of the dogs could reach. Quite a few dogs bombed out on the water work, and I wondered it it might have been a bit foreign situation for them that didn't help.

Good luck!

[rkelly]

Well I ran her in the mock test this weekend and she did great. She started the track...went about halfway down the line and pointed for a few seconds, then took off at full speed about another 70 yards or so directly to the bird. I think I will lay off the tracking now until the real test in 2 weeks.