wild birds in the off season vs. pen raised

[tatraxle]

I'm training my first bird dog, a 1 1/2 year old griffon. His first season was so-so. Lots of flushed birds. He did fairly well with pheasants, but for some reason, he was never excited about huns. I have a pasture with huns next to my house and have been getting him into them since early on. He's flushed literally hundreds of birds out of that field but only pointed a handful, until yesterday. The last two days I've gone out, he's pointed 9 separate pair from long distances (good headwind). Very stiff solid points. It's like a switch has flipped in his brain. I'm quite relieved and very excited about his change of heart on huns.

I'm concerned about taking him out day in and day out and having him point huns, but get no reward (no shot, no bird). I praise him excessively and give him treats, but is that good enough. Should I continue to get him into these birds. Also, I would like to get a bird launcher and get some simulated hunting practice. I held off last summer based on an overwhelming response from this site that I shouldn't introduce pen birds when I have access to wild birds. I'm only concerned that he may not put "the game" together if I don't start shooting the birds. Now that the flip is switched, I don't want to loose it. It's a beautiful thing seeing your dog do what he's supposed to do. Even if it takes a while.

[Ridge-Point]

If it was me I would coop him up for a few days, maybe even a week or two. His reward really should be getting to hunt birds, I don't think you need to shoot any for him to keep him excited about them. You are lucky to have wild birds in your back yard.

[Sharon]

I don't train on wild birds during the breeding season. Up here in Ontario, you can not have your dog off leash on public land from May 15 to August 1.

[ezzy333]

I sure wouldn't run dogs in the fields during nesting season even where it is legal. If there are birds around leave them undisturbed so we can have birds this fall.

Ezzy

[tatraxle]

Ok, maybe I should reword this question. Is it beneficial for a dog that has "turned on" to birds, specificaly huns, to introduce him to pen raised birds in the off season. I understand that loose pen raised birds could be counterproductive if he's able to catch them, but what about a launcher? Is there a downside to using a launcher with pen raised birds? I simply want him to "put it together" in a controlled environment. I don't intend to continue harassing the wild birds through the nesting season. It is not illegal here, and I only do it on private land in early spring and late summer.

[GsPJustin]

If I had access to wild birds year round and I could get away with it. I would run the dog on the birds. It wouldn't be the exercise spot but once every week or 2 I would take him down there to points some birds. I doubt that would really hurt the bird numbers. This way you could get the best of both worlds. Preserve the birds for the fall, and let your dog hunt up some birds as a reward. Sounds like a Win/Win/Win to me.

[ezzy333]

And 75% of the birds that will be sitting tight for your dog will be hens on their nests and there is a good chance they will never come back once scared off the nest by a predator.

Ezzy

[Ricky Ticky Shorthairs]

I sure wouldn't run dogs in the fields during nesting season even where it is legal. If there are birds around leave them undisturbed so we can have birds this fall.

Ezzy

I'm not too sure that I agree with that. There A LOT of pro trainers that go to the praries to do just that. Train on wild birds during late summer. Most train on Grouse and Chickens, not phesants. I was at a summer camp with Jim West 4 summers ago and we had contact with 200 plus birds a day, for 1 1/2 mos. It's like that every year.

And 75% of the birds that will be sitting tight for your dog will be hens on their nests and there is a good chance they will never come back once scared off the nest by a predator.

Ezzy

I went back for opening weekend and we saw just as many birds.

Doug

[wems2371]

I don't know what kind of pen raised birds you can get a hold of, but I have used quail and pheasant in a launcher. Try to get birds from someone with good flight pens so you have a better chance of better flying birds. Buy them within a few days of when you want to use them. Or better yet, if you have the room, you could build a johny house and reuse your own birds. I know some folks don't believe in pigeons, but they are an easy to keep, inexpensive, excellent flying bird as well. If you think you're going to have a problem with catching pen raised, you might start out the launcher or planted bird work with a checkcord, just like he was a 6 month old pup...so you can control the situation. My dog will be 2 in July and has maybe had 2 dozen birds shot over her. This summer, as we work on steadiness training, we will be shooting more. But so far, just being in the field and finding the birds seems to be its own reward for her. Good luck and I'm glad the switch turned on for your dog.

[Benny]

I understand that loose pen raised birds could be counterproductive if he's able to catch them, but what about a launcher? Is there a downside to using a launcher with pen raised birds?

In my opinion, no I think a launcher would really help you out in this situation.
By the way, I know how you feel about worrying that your dog is going to lose its skills during the off season. I was heartbroken when they put up the "LEASH ONLY" sign at the wildlife refuge I run my dog at during hunting season. Don't worry, though, yard work and just a few pigeons every couple weeks keeps the doctor away.

Good luck!

[Benny]

I'm not too sure that I agree with that. There A LOT of pro trainers that go to the praries to do just that. Train on wild birds during nesting season. Most train on Grouse and Chickens, not phesants. I was at a summer camp with Jim West 4 summers ago and we had contact with 200 plus birds a day, for 1 1/2 mos. It's like that every year.

And 75% of the birds that will be sitting tight for your dog will be hens on their nests and there is a good chance they will never come back once scared off the nest by a predator.
Ezzy

I went back for opening weekend and we saw just as many birds.
Doug

Ricky, that's great news. But just cuz my buddy's dad chewed for 26 years and never got cancer doesn't mean tobacco products cannot cause cancer...it just means he's one lucky son of a b....
It's biologist approved: stomping around nesting areas and stressing hen's WILL lead to poor recruitment the following season and abandoned nests.
If it's private and its your birds, who cares, its your problem. If its public, well I can't believe there's not a law in every state.

[Ricky Ticky Shorthairs]

I'm not too sure that I agree with that. There A LOT of pro trainers that go to the praries to do just that. Train on wild birds during nesting season. Most train on Grouse and Chickens, not phesants. I was at a summer camp with Jim West 4 summers ago and we had contact with 200 plus birds a day, for 1 1/2 mos. It's like that every year.

And 75% of the birds that will be sitting tight for your dog will be hens on their nests and there is a good chance they will never come back once scared off the nest by a predator.
Ezzy

I went back for opening weekend and we saw just as many birds.
Doug

Ricky, that's great news. But just cuz my buddy's dad chewed for 26 years and never got cancer doesn't mean tobacco products cannot cause cancer...it just means he's one lucky son of a b....
It's biologist approved: stomping around nesting areas and stressing hen's WILL lead to poor recruitment the following season and abandoned nests.
If it's private and its your birds, who cares, its your problem. If its public, well I can't believe there's not a law in every state.

Benny~
I'm talking about the time from early august and later when the little ones are still with momma. My original post was misleading about the time we were running on birds. I don't want you guys to get the wrong idea. I am NOT endorsing running dogs on hens that are sitting on defenseless eggs or chicks. I will edit my original post.

There is a law here, like most places, that says you can't run dogs on public ground between mid-march to mid-july.

I would think that habitat, predators, food, and maybe a hard winter would also come into play when it comes to next years hatch. At least that is what I have found from personal experience.

Oh yea, nice analagy, but did you have to use cancer as a comparison? That was a little MUCH wasn't it?

Doug

[tatraxle]

Thanks for all of the advice. I will hold off on the wild birds until late summer. I have a good source for all types of pen birds and will do some training through spring and summer with a launcher, as I don't think I can wait until the end of summer to get him back on birds. As I mentioned previously, I'm only concerned with enforcing and rewarding his pointing, which was pretty spotty up until now. I'm new to bird dogs, so I don't know if, once he's figured it out (pointing consistently), he won't revert to the previous flushing. If getting him on birds regularly will enforce this behavior, I want to get him into as many as I can, now. Is it typical that when a dog does figure it out and stops flushing, that learned behavior stays with them? I'm still somewhat amazed at the contrast between his performance over the first 1 1/2 years and what he's doing now. It's actually like a completely different dog. Is this a typical experience, or do they usually come into their own more gradually?

[Sharon]

Thanks for all of the advice. I will hold off on the wild birds until late summer. I have a good source for all types of pen birds and will do some training through spring and summer with a launcher, as I don't think I can wait until the end of summer to get him back on birds. As I mentioned previously, I'm only concerned with enforcing and rewarding his pointing, which was pretty spotty up until now. I'm new to bird dogs, so I don't know if, once he's figured it out (pointing consistently), he won't revert to the previous flushing. If getting him on birds regularly will enforce this behavior, I want to get him into as many as I can, now. Is it typical that when a dog does figure it out and stops flushing, that learned behavior stays with them? I'm still somewhat amazed at the contrast between his performance over the first 1 1/2 years and what he's doing now. It's actually like a completely different dog. Is this a typical experience, or do they usually come into their own more gradually?

Sorry I brought the subject up. I know that wasn't your intent. Welcome to the forum.
I don't revert to a launcher. I simply plant birds ( pigeon/chukar) and carry on as usual. Your dog is young ; in his teen years. You can't say he'll never break and flush again. For me the answer isn't more birds, but rather consistent control of any flush. I assume you have a plan if he flushes; just be consistent with it. I have a dog who was broke at 10 months and has never broke since then. I have another dog at age 7 who will occasionally break. Every dog is different.

PS In Ontario we can get an off-season training permit that allows us to train on planted birds.

[ezzy333]

Sharon wrote
Sorry I brought the subject up. I know that wasn't your intent. Welcome to the forum.

I sure wouldn't be sorry about bringing up something that needs to be discussed. You will be in a peck of trouble if you are caught. This is a lot more important than many of the topics we get going.

Thank you for trying to help someone and protecting our resources,

Ezzy

[kninebirddog]

Definitely not during Nesting season

But it doesn't matter here in Arizona You can not train your dogs on wild birds when hunting season is closed.
I spoke with the game and fish commissioner as i knew some people that wanted to hang around after season closed to just blank birds over their dogs

It is illegal as they consider "Pursuit" as part of hunting so doesn't matter blank pistol or shotgun you will get the same ticket and that will be hunting during a closed season.

and as for pen versus wild and training ..I like some wild birds but to get more consistency of getting a dog on birds and some real training pen raised and pigeons will allow that every time you put a dog down they will get on birds

and I prefer to help a dog on pigeons so the real birds are fun and exciting

[tatraxle]

When he flushes birds, I typically whoa him immediately to stop him. Then I will take him to where the birds flushed from and whoa him at that location. is there a better way to handle when a dog flushes? Seems like a fine line between correcting (e-collar) a dog when he flushes and praising him for finding birds. He's a bit of a sensitive dog so I definitely don't want him to be punished for finding birds, even if he does flush them. I've just introduced the collar, but really haven't used it yet with him flushing, only for basic obedience. I'm a bit leery of using the collar for this purpose. Any suggestions?

[Sharon]

There are others on here who can give you better advice than me.
I do know that you have to have a way to stop your dog when he ignores your whoa command and chases. If dog gets away with it even once, your programme has taken two steps backwards.

Some folk attach a c cord when the dog goes on point and have someone else flush the bird.
Others use the e-collar , as I do. When you see a dog break and go from a distance there really is no other option but the e-collar.
It's my understanding that you never use the e-collar when the dog is on point, but when he breaks he gets a "bang" correction. Athough, a trainer told me that if the dog is "dancing" on point I should use the e-collar.

I'm sure others can give you a more experienced opinion.

[wems2371]

Do you have an auto launcher with remote? If so, that is a great tool for a dog that might bust birds or be unsteady on point. If you see your dog catch scent-- you pop the bird. If your dog goes on point and then starts to move, creep, etc--you pop the bird. Essentially the bird teaches the dog, and no verbal commands are necessary. When we worked with our dog as a pup, we did use a checkcord to control the situation too...and started with a manual launcher and planted birds.

As far as chasing, when the bird takes flight after an established point and we flush, we are currently doing yard type work with a pigeon pole, walking birds, double launcher set ups. Then we will take that yardwork back to the field.

If he is busting/flushing birds and not pointing, I'm thinking I would not whoa him, but rather let him chase and see that he can't catch them. From what I've read, that's the whole point of training on wild birds, is to let the bird teach the dog that getting too close is unacceptable and all is lost. I am somewhat new to this, so you get what you pay for with my advice. Denise

[dmadis8]

Do you have an auto launcher with remote? If so, that is a great tool for a dog that might bust birds or be unsteady on point. If you see your dog catch scent-- you pop the bird. If your dog goes on point and then starts to move, creep, etc--you pop the bird. Essentially the bird teaches the dog, and no verbal commands are necessary. When we worked with our dog as a pup, we did use a checkcord to control the situation too...and started with a manual launcher and planted birds.

As far as chasing, when the bird takes flight after an established point and we flush, we are currently doing yard type work with a pigeon pole, walking birds, double launcher set ups. Then we will take that yardwork back to the field.

If he is busting/flushing birds and not pointing, I'm thinking I would not whoa him, but rather let him chase and see that he can't catch them. From what I've read, that's the whole point of training on wild birds, is to let the bird teach the dog that getting too close is unacceptable and all is lost. I am somewhat new to this, so you get what you pay for with my advice. Denise

I have read this too, but what happens when you have a dog that likes to chase birds?

[gonehuntin']

Go to a launcher and pigeons. You can teach a dog faster and easier with launched birds that you ever can with wild birds. You always have total control of every training situation. Then, when he's perfect on the launchers and pigeons, polish him on the wild birds. Training on wild birds only is vastly overblown. It takes longer to finish a dog and I see absolutely no advantage in it. Professional trainers simply can't do it, or they'd never get a dog trained.

All that being said, no dog wil be a great wild bird dog unless the final polish is applied using wild birds.

[bobman]

The last two days I've gone out, he's pointed 9 separate pair from long distances (good headwind). Very stiff solid points. It's like a switch has flipped in his brain. I'm quite relieved and very excited about his change of heart on huns.

IMO he doesn't need any "training" on planted birds hes probably just matured and is "getting it"

I would not bother and just wait until after nesting season when the young birds can fly well and resume working him on wild birds

Your not a pro trainer on a tight schedule and the dog will not regress a good dog will point birds just becasue its in him genetically its not necessary to shoot birds over him praise is all he needs

you start screwing around with planted birds that he is much more likely to catch and that will do more harm than good to his recent revelation about pointing

my two cents

[DGFavor]

IMO he doesn't need any "training" on planted birds hes probably just matured and is "getting it"

I would not bother and just wait until after nesting season when the young birds can fly well and resume working him on wild birds

Your not a pro trainer on a tight schedule and the dog will not regress a good dog will point birds just becasue its in him genetically its not necessary to shoot birds over him praise is all he needs

you start screwing around with planted birds that he is much more likely to catch and that will do more harm than good to his recent revelation about pointing

my two cents

100% right on the mark!! Unless you've got a very experienced mentor to closely assist and guide you working with set ups/launchers/pen birds/pigeons/etc., your dog will be much better off just continuing to let native game be his teacher IMO - even if you've got to wait a few months for the birds to mate/nest/rear broods. These upcoming few months are great times to work on obedience, conditioning and just let the dog be a dog!

[gonehuntin']

When he flushes birds, I typically whoa him immediately to stop him. Then I will take him to where the birds flushed from and whoa him at that location. is there a better way to handle when a dog flushes? Seems like a fine line between correcting (e-collar) a dog when he flushes and praising him for finding birds. He's a bit of a sensitive dog so I definitely don't want him to be punished for finding birds, even if he does flush them. I've just introduced the collar, but really haven't used it yet with him flushing, only for basic obedience. I'm a bit leery of using the collar for this purpose. Any suggestions?

Given you're equipment, you're doing it correctly. I use a strong voice when I do this so the dog knows I'm displeased, or I might give the dog a shake as I put him back.

When using the collar, always give the command, then the correction, then the command: WHOA, Nick with collar, WHOA so the dog knows what he's being corrected for. If you only use the collar when the birds are in the air, you won't have a problem. If you have also force broken the dog with the collar, you can use it before the birds are in the air. For instance, when you see him tensing to creep or pile on in, you can WHOA, stimulate, WHOA him. If he has NOT been force broken to the collar, some dogs can develop an aversion to birds by doing this, especially, if too high a setting is used on the collar. But that's another whole topic.

What you have to remember with the collar is HOW the dog was trained on it. If you have only taught WHOA, then you can't suddenly command HERE, nick the dog and expect him to come to you. Whoa is the default response and the dog will freeze, not come when he senses the collar. That's why it's important to teach the dog all of the command he will work to with the collar. If you only want it for HERE and WHOA, then that's all you'd train on. I use it for everything, HERE, WHOA, HEEL, FETCH and hand signals if the dog is taught them. That's your choice.

Talk as little as possible to the dog. If you are always verbally WHOAING him, he'll use that as a crutch and never become staunch. The time for praise is not when he finds the birds, but at the total completion of the task. If you praise him just for finding the birds and he bales in and busts them, you've just taught him to bust birds.

The huge advantage of launchers is that with no voice correction or external stimulation, the launcher and birds teach the dog. Any movement by the dog, dancing, tensing, turning his head to look at you, warrants a launched bird. The dog soon learns that it is his movement that causes the birds to launch.