Whoa Training

[Mr. Crappie]

At what age is it appropriate to start whoa breaking? The basic method I use is to use a choke chain and a lead and you actually teach heeling at the same time. I was shown this at a dog training seminar several years ago.

[Benny]

Do you just keep tension on the leash/cord the whole time the dog is leading out?

I prefer the checkcord with bowline knot hanging at chin length. I can just see confusion with a choke chain causing a tug during the correction and then your dog thinks..."come/heel?"

But more to your question, heel is something that a pup can learn with little to no pressure. A slip lead can even work on the little guys, but no yanking.

Don't have a clue what the appropriate time for whoa training is, but my vote is 8 months or older. I would also like to put in a big plug for whistle training while overlaying with the checkcord. Later in life you're going to wish you had that whistle, so why not start now.

[kninebirddog]

I start with puppies at dinner time from the day i bring them home
game is stand still not leaning in to the collar but standing still on their own the bowl comes down lean in trying to move bowl goes up

once they figure out that standing still brings the bowl down I give them a release cue

then as they stand still on their own and I will add time before the release ...maybe a second or two as they get better and better

once they have it down after a couple weeks I will then add the word Whoa to the routine

as for older dogs I like the whoa post via rick and ronnie smith method only problem with it it is the worst method to explain in writing it really is a method that needs to be watched for the correct timing and key things to look for to really do it right but it sure can put on a nice polish to field work with a dog understanding a Cue if they are not doing something
and for me there is a big difference between a cue to do something and a correction even though the timing is the same

[Sprig]

its not as much an age thing as it is where the dog is in its training. I dont start on whoa until the dog has been worked around birds and get out and hunt. about the time the dog starts to show some pointing instinct is when i usually start whoa training.

I would, however, loose the choke chain and just use a regular flat collar. at least until the dog knows the command and only needs to be reinforced for not whoaing when it knows better.

[gonehuntin']

AS K-9 said, it starts at 8 weeks. They never go through a door without stopping, never eat without stoppng. All low pressure fun work, but it makes it easier later on.

[RayGubernat]

Mr. C -

I start my pups on heel/whoa drills at about 3-4 months using a variation of the Smith wonder lead. I use the method described in Paul Long's book. I also play train in the same way as gonehuntin' does, making the dog stop and stand at the kennel door until released, making the dog stop and stand for food, treats, etc. In addition I spend time every day with the dog on a narrow, wobbly bench, stroking it up, stying it up getting it used to standing quietly and with high style. In all cases, it is mostly fun and pretty low pressure, especially at first. I also take the opportunity to set a dog up on its kennel ans stroke it up, set it up on a cahir or tabletop or fencrail or whatever is handy, and stroke it up. I proceed with patience, gentl hands, persistence and, most importantly, a healthy sense of humor. When the humor fades, it is time to put the dog up and go do something else.

I firmly believe that all of these things, taken together, condition the young dog to stop and stand, with style, as a first response. By the time the dog is eight or nine months old, I can usually whoa the dog from across the yard...off lead and the dog will stop dead in its tracks. I can walk to the dog, walk all around the dog making shushing noises and kicking with my feet and the dog will not move a toenail. When I can step over the dog and it stays high and tight, then I am pretty sure it is ready to see a bird in a release trap. Oh yeah, at some point, shortly before the dog is ready to see birds in traps, I substitute a prong collar for the rope wonder lead as a step twoard steadying the dog on birds, as I use the prong collar and checkcord to enforce steadiness on birds.

When the dog is rock steady and completely responsive in the yard to the appropriate cues, then, to me it is ready for birdwork...not before.

To me a dog is ready to be steadied or "whoa broke" on birds when it has demonstrated the ability to be solidly whoa broke in the yard. That has very little to do with the age of the dog but a whole lot to do with mental preparedness of the animal.

For purposes of time reference, I have had pointers ready to be steadied in the field on birds as young as eight and nine months but more typically, at about eleven or twelve months, but these are field trial bred pointers. Pointers, as a breed, are known to break out earlier than just about any other breed and the heavily field trial bred dogs have tremendous amounts of point bred in(among other things). I would NOT expect most dogs to be ready to be steadied at such a young age.

The bottom line is that the dog will tell you, by its performance in the yard, when it is ready for the next step.

RayG

[gspmo1]

There is a good video on youtube explaining the whoa post training method, here is the link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QYCTo_o3 ... re=related

There are 4 different parts to the training that is the first one

[BluffCountryOutdoors]

Like previously stated, My Dog doesn't eat unless he is completely still on whoa. If he budges I move him back then I have him whoa again. Then he eats.

That makes a dog really understand what you want from him and they of course want to eat.

Once your dog understands commands I don't see why you can't incorporate "whoa."

-Everyone has times and dates that work for them.. go for it and see what works for you!?

-Mikey & Odin

[kninebirddog]

There is a good video on youtube explaining the whoa post training method, here is the link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QYCTo_o3 ... re=related

There are 4 different parts to the training that is the first one

I sure wish Rick and Ronnie Smith would do their method on video out of all the methods I have seen I like how they get a dog before even attempting the post and also how they use the post to teach a point of contact which the cue means to stand still.

many method obviously work finding the method that makes the most sense to you and for you to follow consistently that is the most important thing

[Merle]

I used the Larry Mueller method with good success. Really good advice on starting as pups with food, doors, etc. They catch on quickly.

[Mr. Crappie]

The method I have used comes from Jon Hann, trainer/owner of Perfection Kennels. He has put on a couple of training seminars for our local Quail chapter. I was somewhat skeptical, but about eight years ago he took my 2 year old male pointer (who didn't know anything about heeling or whoa) put the choke chain on himand made a believer out of me and a friend who has since used the method of his dogs.
When you put the chain on you need to have it so it "dangles" unless you pull on it. Using a short lead, you basically keep the dog next to your left side and start walking. As you walk gently, but continually pull up on the collar while giving the command heel. After walking twenty or so steps you turn around and do it again. The dog usually does not fight it very long, and it is amazing how fast they pick it up. Each time you get ready to turn around you give the command whoa, pulling up on the collar and holding. After the dog grasps the concept, you transition to the electric collar using very light stimulation.
My old male was a hoss and hard to control, but I will tell you I had him stone cold broke to heel on whoa within a few weeks. It is funny because in hunting situations, my buddy and I have told our dogs to heel and they always come to our left side and we have "heeled" four or five dogs down a road at a time.
I have tried the barrel method and others, but this one seems to work more effectively and quickly.

[RayGubernat]

Mr C -

Thank you for that description of that portion of the Perfection kennels method.

The method you describe sounds very much like a blending of Paul Long's Heel/Whoa drill(which he did with a looped checkcord) and the initial portion of the Koehler method(which incorporated a choker).

What I do is quite similar but I use a piggng string(poor man's wonder lead). Instead of transitioning to an e-collar I transition to a prong collar(One could also use a pinch collar instead) and go to the birdwork with that.

All pretty much variations on the same theme, I think.

RayG