e-collar

[Sharon]

A fellow who asks me for advice off and on ( foolish man), is asking this question. I'm not sure what to say.

He introduced his dog to the e-collar - properly I think.
He used a known command - come - and put the collar on level one/continuous until the dog started towards him.
Several times, no problem.

Now however when he puts the collar on to start training the dog acts afraid and cowers.
He had the dog wear the collar for several weeks with no stimulation.

7 MONTH OLD gwp

[Ron R]

I would suggest to him to put the e collar on the dog for a few hours at a time without any training. While the e-collar is on, play fetch, go to the park or anywhere for a run or a walk around the block. Try to associate it with something fun or just forget he's wearing it.

If I'm understanding this correctly. He's holding down the continuous button until the dog responds to the command. I would'nt recommend that. Now this is just the way I introduce the e-collar. I will give the hear command and a quick nick if he does'nt repond to the command. If he responds then no nick. If I nick the dog twice (each time after the command was given) and he still does'nt respond but starts scratching at the collar the dog does not know the command as well as I thought he did so back to the check cord. As we all know young dogs will come to our voice and not neccesarily the command but they make us think that they know the command. It seems to me that the dog has associated the ecollar with punishment. How old is the dog and how long has he had him or her?
Hope this helps

[kninebirddog]

Sounds like the dog now associates the collar with nothing but come and being commanded

I agree put the collar on the dog and just go for walks and let the dog learn the collar means nothing more then going out and having fun and go back to a check cord and working through this over caused effect and don't get frustrated just walk on and ignore the dog when he coars and taking the collar off in that state of mind aill also only reconfirm the cowering behavior

have him get with someone that has some more experience with a collar to help undo what he has done pick up and go on all is not lst as long as the rest of the training is training not a dicatorship of slap collar on and just being commanded in ways theat were not lead into with other pre training of the commands

[gonehuntin']

Good advice above and agree 100%. Have your friend put himself in the dog's paws. Here comes the boss with a collar. He puts it on me, I get shocked. Not much fun there. I never get to play with it on. Oh, oh. Here he comes to electrocute me again.

Doesn't sound like much fun to be that dog to me.

[griff]

I am the guy that Sharon is referring to in her post. I just joined the forum today after she recommended it to me.

So to clarify my e-collar concerns; I have trained the pup to a level of obedience that I am happy with (where I "think" he knows the command and responds the majority of the time on the first command). I started almost a month ago, having the collar on the dog whenever we were out and about, including whoa training, swimming, fun bumpers, walks, etc. Last week I started with e-collar conditioning for the "come" command. Following the advice of some more experienced trainers than myself and the dvd that came with the collar, I started into a "sit" "come" routine where every second or third "come" command was followed with a continuous stimulation until I was confident he was coming in to me (avg <1 sec of stimulation). However when I would use the stimulation he would veer off to one side or the other seemingly trying to avoid the stimulation as I wheeled him in on the check cord. ( I only am using level 1 on the stimulation dial). I did this for about 1/2 hour, alternating three "come" commands with no shock for every "come" command with a shock. After seeing his response I was uncomfortable with the results and the following week I switched to e-collar conditioning for "sit" (figuring it was more simple). After letting him run in the fields for 10-15 mins with the collar on we started into a "heel" "sit" routine. When I would command "sit" I would hold the continuous stimulation button until I got my response. We only did this about 4 times and I was much more pleased with his reaction to the stimulation. Two days later we go out to do some more "sit" conditioning and as soon as I commanded "sit" he starts trying to pull and get away from me. At this point I put the transmitter away and did the majority of the lesson with no stimulation just "heel" "sit" with the check cord. Once he was calm and in a more comfortable state I went back to the transmitter but this time I only used the "nick" function if I didn't get a timely response to my command.

My plan now is to take a little more time at the start of sessions for "fun stuff" and only use the "nick" command to re-enforce his obedience. Following your advice I will only use the continuous button if he is totally disregarding my commands AND I am certain that he knows what is being asked of him.

PS> He is a 7 month old Griffon from Quebec City....Griffon'dor Kennels

Thanks again Sharon,

-Drew

[kninebirddog]

sounds like it has been to much for your pup

I sent you a PM for the processes I use to getting a dog used to Cues which then leads to the e collar

Good Luck make it fun

[R-Heaton]

Drew,,, sounds like you have laid a pretty good foundation and just plain running into one of the many quirky things that will happen and continue to happen throughout the training process. I also think you have recieved some good advice from the others,, believe me I would have a comment if I didn't think so .

One thing you might check on the palm of your own hand and really see how "hot" your #1 setting is. Maybe its a little hotter than the average and is to much,,,, one way to combat this wear the collar a little loser. I think the idea of after putting the collar on to have a little "fun time" is a real good idea,,, do a little rough house petting and get him so he is standing up straight and not slinking around. I never bend down to my dogs especially if they are going to start to slink when I go put the collar on them,,, make them want to stand up nice and proud then put the collar on.

The other thing that I noticed in your post is that you seem to want to graduate to the e collar,,, to me it sounds like your doing a good job with out using it and the dog is learning quite well without it,,, #1 rule in dog training,,, only do the bare minimum to get the desired results. I got a great story that Harold Ray told me about a souther boy, his pecker and a turkey,,, maybe you can con D_Favor into telling it to ya.

Keep in mind sooner or later they are going to test ya to see what you will put up with whether its pouting or rebelling, the key is just recognizing what is happening (do ya react and change direction or ignore and press on). Other than that,,,,, good luck.

How's that Sharon?

[Sharon]

Drew,,, sounds like you have laid a pretty good foundation and just plain running into one of the many quirky things that will happen and continue to happen throughout the training process. I also think you have recieved some good advice from the others,, believe me I would have a comment if I didn't think so .

One thing you might check on the palm of your own hand and really see how "hot" your #1 setting is. Maybe its a little hotter than the average and is to much,,,, one way to combat this wear the collar a little loser. I think the idea of after putting the collar on to have a little "fun time" is a real good idea,,, do a little rough house petting and get him so he is standing up straight and not slinking around. I never bend down to my dogs especially if they are going to start to slink when I go put the collar on them,,, make them want to stand up nice and proud then put the collar on.

The other thing that I noticed in your post is that you seem to want to graduate to the e collar,,, to me it sounds like your doing a good job with out using it and the dog is learning quite well without it,,, #1 rule in dog training,,, only do the bare minimum to get the desired results. I got a great story that Harold Ray told me about a souther boy, his pecker and a turkey,,, maybe you can con D_Favor into telling it to ya.

Keep in mind sooner or later they are going to test ya to see what you will put up with whether its pouting or rebelling, the key is just recognizing what is happening (do ya react and change direction or ignore and press on). Other than that,,,,, good luck.

How's that Sharon?

Thanks Rich and all. I told Drew he would get good, experienced help here.
What's that about a pecker? I told him this was a professional site.

[Sprig]

My plan now is to take a little more time at the start of sessions for "fun stuff" and only use the "nick" command to re-enforce his obedience. Following your advice I will only use the continuous button if he is totally disregarding my commands AND I am certain that he knows what is being asked of him.

PS> He is a 7 month old Griffon from Quebec City....Griffon'dor Kennels

Thanks again Sharon,

-Drew

I would recommend giving the dog more time just wearing the collar before you go back to stimulation, maybe a month or two. 7 months old can be too early on some dogs depending on their temprement for e-collar training so you might want to just slow it down a bit. from what you described i would tend to think he is not ready yet. you did everything right by having him wear the collar long before you added the stimulation and then used the lowest level. He sounds like he might either be just a bit young, sensitive or both so just take it easy and go a bit slower with him.

I would also agree with just "nicking" him instead of full stimulation. some dogs just have a very low threshold for pain and pressure and you might have one of them so just go about it slow and easy and he will come out of it and be fine.

[bossman]

I don't know much...but on this one I agree with sprig. 7 months old. Just let him enjoy "puppyhood" for awhile with a dummy collar on him. Get him out and let him chase birds and butterflys. Feed him with the dummy on. Just take it slower imo.

[RayGubernat]

Griff -

I am not a big fan of avoidance type training, ie getting the dog to turn off the stimulation by doing what is required. I am not confident enough in my abilities with an e-collar to use it in that way.

I think the potential for confusion by the dog is too high...at least with me doing the training.

I try to restrict my use of the collar to enforcement of commands that the dog knows very, very well. There is very little potential for confusion when you say "come" and the dog keeps heading in the other direction. The dog knows very well what it is getting nicked for, when it has been thoroughly schooled in the yard with a checkcord . I introduce all my obedience command in the yard wiuth a checkcord and eventually over lay with a prong collar(some folks use a pinch collar...not much difference).

I should mention that my TT has two nick buttons...one about 1/3 fo the selected intensity, one about 2/3 of the selected intensity and full intensity when pressed together. I find that if the dog ignores a single nick, a series of nicks of variable intensity tends to get their attention.

Other than the above, I really cannot add to what has already been said. You have received some excellent advice. It is still very much a puppy, so you really need to keep your sense of humor about you and have fun with it. both of you.

The concept and level of obedience for a pointing dog is, or should be balanced with the concept and level of independence that the handler is comfortable with. The dog is, or should be expected to independently search for game in the field...BUT... should respond to commands, when issued.

One end of the stick is a micromanaged automaton that will not leave your shadow and the other end of the stick is a renegade. The useful pointing dog is typically somewhere in between. Exactly where in between is pretty much up to the dog's genetics and the handler's preference.

RayG

[Sharon]

"One end of the stick is a micromanaged automaton that will not leave your shadow and the other end of the stick is a renegade.: quote Ray G.


I like that. Very poetic. I want my dogs very close to the renegade title.......but not quite.

[gonehuntin']

It is not clear to me from your post that the dog is 100% trained WITHOUT the collar. That is of primary importance. The collar only reinforces a known command. Always guide the dog with a leash or cc as you are collar conditioning it. Try to eliminate making your dog make decisions; help him by using the leash or heeling stick.

If you're not getting a good reaction with continuous, go to the repeated nick. There is a big difference in how some dogs handle a nick vs continuous. I don't like continuous. I like reinforcing with a nick and letting the dog teach himself. I will occasionally use some continuous, but I prefer a higher level nick to a lower level continuous.

Check your collar to make sure it's functioning properly. On my TT units, I can't even feel a number one.

When your dog won't come straight in to you, it's telling you that you've created a "hot spot" and he doesn't want to cross it. Before the days of variable intensity collars, they were very difficult to use. For every action, there was a reaction and sometimes that "reaction" was tougher to cure than the problem. Thank God for the VI collars.

[R-Middleton]

I think that there is a possibility that that e-collar is faulty and is giving a much higher level of stimulation than is needed. If the level is correct, it is unusual for a dog to try to avoid the stimulation the way that you explained it.

[Sharon]

I have a confession to make.

During training to-day I got the collar colors confused in my mind and was " stimulating" the wrong dog. :roll: Little Lady looked at me and said, " I am standing tight. What's the problem!?" It's a good thing dogs are resilient. ( I hope.) I felt so bad I gave her a double treat when we got home. and reminded myself to use the same color on the same dog, every time.

[griff]

Thanks for the advice, I will check to the collar tonight on myself....in hindsight I probably should have done this from the get go.

As for the 100% obedience. I would say he is 95%, only because there is still the odd time when he is off the CC that he doesn't respond to the voice or whistle (mostly if he has found something dead to play with or bumps a bird and gives chace). If he is on the CC it's 100% a 100% of the time (voice or whistle) because I have never accepted anything less from him, if he didn't do what was asked I made him do it.

[gonehuntin']

Thanks for the advice, I will check to the collar tonight on myself....in hindsight I probably should have done this from the get go.

As for the 100% obedience. I would say he is 95%, only because there is still the odd time when he is off the CC that he doesn't respond to the voice or whistle (mostly if he has found something dead to play with or bumps a bird and gives chace). If he is on the CC it's 100% a 100% of the time (voice or whistle) because I have never accepted anything less from him, if he didn't do what was asked I made him do it.

If he is that good, you're introducing the collar at precisely the right time. Go for it.

[griff]

Tested the collar against my hand last night and stim level 1 is hardly noticeable. I guess I have a slightly more sensitive dog then the usual, as he still does a little hope when I hit the continuous button (even with loosening the collar). Went back to the "come" training last night with the collar on, following the "prefect start" plan from Perfection Kennels. Everything went well and he was in a good mode (tail wagging) so I did a few more "come" commands with stimulation and called it quits and then through some fun bumpers.

[kninebirddog]

I check collars on the inside of my upper arm or even on my own neck

[rapid fire]

kninebirdog, be careful not to let your wife have the remote when you have that thing strapped to your neck.

[Windyhills]

"I guess I have a more sensitive dog than usual".

Do you? What do you know about the dog and it's breed tendencies, the line it came from, etc.?

Every dog is different.

I wish more folks would appreciate that.

In this case, one neglected (and possibly important, IMO) factor is the type of dog.

What I know of Griffs is that you don't want to rush them into pressure training, might want to use methods that apply less pressure, and that they can take a bit of time to develop.

The advice given is good IMO,but it needs to be considered along with the breed and tendencies of dogs in your line.

If you won't talk to your breeder or folks with experience in your line of griffs, I would lay off the collar for more time. 7 months old might be fine for some dogs but I would be leery of starting a griff that young unless I knew more about the dog and line....

Then I might consider what Ray said about using continuous e-collar methods, esp. with a griff of unknown temperment. Plenty of time to work on that later.

My 2 cents, FWIW

[R-Heaton]

kninebirdog, be careful not to let your wife have the remote

Or husband or boyfriend,,,,,, its Ms. Kninebirddog to most of us.

[Sharon]

kninebirdog, be careful not to let your wife have the remote when you have that thing strapped to your neck.

There you go. Another man assuming that the man has the "power". :roll: ( Just teasing you WindyHills) And actually, I'm really a man.

[rapid fire]

I guess I just assumed most women have sense enough not to try a dog collar on their neck. Their I go again, putting my foot in my mouth.

[kninebirddog]

I guess I just assumed most women have sense enough not to try a dog collar on their neck. Their I go again, putting my foot in my mouth.

well lets just say if I am willing to use it on my dog I might as well know what they are experiencing

[highcotton]

Griff -

I am not a big fan of avoidance type training, ie getting the dog to turn off the stimulation by doing what is required. I am not confident enough in my abilities with an e-collar to use it in that way.

I think the potential for confusion by the dog is too high...at least with me doing the training.

I try to restrict my use of the collar to enforcement of commands that the dog knows very, very well. There is very little potential for confusion when you say "come" and the dog keeps heading in the other direction. The dog knows very well what it is getting nicked for, when it has been thoroughly schooled in the yard with a checkcord . I introduce all my obedience command in the yard wiuth a checkcord and eventually over lay with a prong collar(some folks use a pinch collar...not much difference).

I should mention that my TT has two nick buttons...one about 1/3 fo the selected intensity, one about 2/3 of the selected intensity and full intensity when pressed together. I find that if the dog ignores a single nick, a series of nicks of variable intensity tends to get their attention.

Other than the above, I really cannot add to what has already been said. You have received some excellent advice. It is still very much a puppy, so you really need to keep your sense of humor about you and have fun with it. both of you.

The concept and level of obedience for a pointing dog is, or should be balanced with the concept and level of independence that the handler is comfortable with. The dog is, or should be expected to independently search for game in the field...BUT... should respond to commands, when issued.

One end of the stick is a micromanaged automaton that will not leave your shadow and the other end of the stick is a renegade. The useful pointing dog is typically somewhere in between. Exactly where in between is pretty much up to the dog's genetics and the handler's preference.

RayG

I'm with you Ray....the avoidance type training is way above my pay grede.

[ezzy333]

I guess I just assumed most women have sense enough not to try a dog collar on their neck. Their I go again, putting my foot in my mouth.

well lets just say if I am willing to use it on my dog I might as well know what they are experiencing

It's a wonderful idea but after you do it you still have no idea what the dog is feeling. Thats why it takes different levels on different dogs. I have a friend that has to ouch 110 volts to his tongue to see if its hot and I can feel the tickle just writing about it. :roll:

As a general rule< I think you will find the higher up the chain of brain development an animal is the more they feel. And since we are way above a dog with a much higher developed brain and nervous system we feel a lot more than the dog feel. Also makes a difference on what part of the body you are testing. \

Ezzy

[R-Heaton]

As a general rule< I think you will find the higher up the chain of brain development an animal is the more they feel

Why doesn't this logic hold true with horses,,,, they seem to be extremely sensitive to electricity.

[kninebirddog]

Ezzy. Let's just say You missed the point of my post