Whoa or not!???

[EPointer=Birdss]

I am curious as to your thoughts on this.
Does everyone on the forum whoa break their dogs or do they let the dogs pointing instinct develop naturally??

[gonehuntin']

Whoa is simply another obedience command, and has nothing really to do with bird work. I obedience train all my dogs and start them on launchers, not wild birds. They will progress, in my opinion, much faster with some structure.

[Brittguy]

whoa is very convenient in many situations,and hopefully you won't have to use it around birds.

[kylenicholas02]

Whoa makes everything else extremely easy. During backing you will use whoa, FF'd I use whoa to stop the dog once it brings it to me, if the dog moves in on a bird-whoa...It just makes the process soooo much easier

[RayGubernat]

Whoa is simply another obedience command, and has nothing really to do with bird work. I obedience train all my dogs and start them on launchers, not wild birds. They will progress, in my opinion, much faster with some structure.

Epointer -

Those are words of wisdom and experience. Read and understand what he is telling you and you will be waaaay ahead of most folks who attempt to train their dogs. The yardwork gives the dog structure and ingrains habits, responses and boundaries for its behavior. Introduce the behavior and the appropriate cue, ingrain the behavior and rapid response to the cue through repetition, and then overlay different cues. If you condition a dog to stop and stand on cue, the dog learns to stop and stand...on cue. When the cue transforms from a hand signal or whatever, in the yard, to the scent of a gamebird in the field... the dog will not just stop and stand as it has been conditioned to, it will stop, stand and point the bird with all the intensity God and the breeder put in there.

I spend several months doing yardwork drills with my puppies, before they see a bird in the field. It is soooo important to lay the foundation for success with the yardwork. And yes, it makes everything that comes after soooo much easier.

If you do the yardwork properly, it is not at all unrealistic or uncommon to have a young dog point and hold on its very first, second or third bird contact. After that, it is more repetitions of that successful behavior.

RayG

[texscala]

I am still learning how to train my dog and I knew when I got her I had (and still have) a lot to learn. I let my dog head out for her first season at 5 months and she learned from wild birds. the first few months she bumped everything but by 7 or 8 months she had been taught by grouse and chukar that if she moved there would be no bird to retrieve.

In my opinion let the birds train the dog and start fine tuning as is needed. My dog did not see a pigeon in a launcher until she was 18 months. I now use maybe 5 pigeons a year to polish up a few things but trust wild birds more than I do myself.


I also taught whoa at 18 months and she learned it very quickly. One of the big mistakes I make is I say Whoa way too much. I trust my dog and should let her adjust as is needed to hold wild birds.

[kninebirddog]

Like gonehuntin said it is an obedience command

it can help to keep to remind a dog to stand still or wait for a meal etc it should only be said when needed which hopefully isn't much if at all

[Ruffshooter]

One more way of saying it. Whoa is not teaching a dog to point. Just to stand still until you are told to move. Point is instict. Whoa is a command, a helpful command weather verbal command or circumstance command.

Rick

[kylenicholas02]

I am still learning how to train my dog and I knew when I got her I had (and still have) a lot to learn. I let my dog head out for her first season at 5 months and she learned from wild birds. the first few months she bumped everything but by 7 or 8 months she had been taught by grouse and chukar that if she moved there would be no bird to retrieve.

In my opinion let the birds train the dog and start fine tuning as is needed. My dog did not see a pigeon in a launcher until she was 18 months. I now use maybe 5 pigeons a year to polish up a few things but trust wild birds more than I do myself.

Maybe half of the trainer's in the nation are screwing up by teaching "WHOA" from the time the puppies first get their own plate of dog food then?

[postoakshorthairs]

In my opinion let the birds train the dog and start fine tuning as is needed. My dog did not see a pigeon in a launcher until she was 18 months. I now use maybe 5 pigeons a year to polish up a few things but trust wild birds more than I do myself.

In my opinion there's some validity to this statement if you have unlimited access to wild birds. If I let a young dog bump birds in my area it was probably the only covey we were going to see that day.

[Shadow]

whoa break! it's just a usefull tool- obedience train for it naaaaaaaa

it just helps when a youngster is confused- course it never hurts to have an adult that will freeze when you holler whoa!

[texscala]

I am still learning how to train my dog and I knew when I got her I had (and still have) a lot to learn. I let my dog head out for her first season at 5 months and she learned from wild birds. the first few months she bumped everything but by 7 or 8 months she had been taught by grouse and chukar that if she moved there would be no bird to retrieve.

In my opinion let the birds train the dog and start fine tuning as is needed. My dog did not see a pigeon in a launcher until she was 18 months. I now use maybe 5 pigeons a year to polish up a few things but trust wild birds more than I do myself.

Maybe half of the trainer's in the nation are screwing up by teaching "WHOA" from the time the puppies first get their own plate of dog food then?

I don't think half the trainers out there are teaching puppies whoa over their food. I do this myself but did not start until the pup was 18 months and now can put my dogs food down whao her and wait 5 to 10 minutes before releasing her. I think it is a good Idea but I personally like to wait a bit. I know others who never say whoa unless they are in a hunting situation.

For me whoa was useful in teaching my dog to back and when we are getting close to a road. Once she sets up on point I do my best not to say it and she usually does not need to hear it.

If someone wants to teach whoa at the puppy stage that is fine but for me I let them grow up a bit and keep everything fun for the first little bit.

[RayGubernat]

FWIW -

I "teach" whoa, and other commands like come and kennel at every single opportunity. There are as many ways as you can dream up. When I go to the kennel to release the dogs to run in the back yard...each and every time I open a kennel door my hand is up in the "stop" position and the dog had better stay in the kennel. If it bolts for the opening, it gets a face full of door. I don't care how old or young the dog is...it had better stand there until I release it. Funny thing is, the dogs seem to figure this out almost immeditately. I wonder if the door slamming shut in their face has something to do with it? I routinely lay my dogs down on a picnic table to check them over, pull briars, clean up scratches ad scrapes, give them shots, clip their toenails, scale their teeth or just give them some lovin'...but they gotta lay down and stay there. At the conclusion of the grooming or medicating task, I will usually spend a few moments stroking the dog up and styling it up. They get off on that so it is a very effective reward for good behavior.

I routinely order an indidvidual dog to "kenel up", make it stand there for a few moments and then release it to rejoin the "gang". I could go on but if you can get your hands on a copy of Larry Mueller's book,"Speed train your bird dog", you will see that his approach to dog training makes use of the things we have to do each and every day with our dogs. For example, we have to feed our dogs every single day. If you take ten to thirty seconds more to do a whoa drill with the dog dish, that is the essence of speed training. Why not? Add a lesson to the everyday tasks we must do anyway ad the dog will learn much faster, much more readily and with much less overall pressure.

I am constantly reminding myself that each and every time we interact with our dogs we are teaching them something, whether we intend to or not.

Without a firm foundation in obedience, you ain't got much. IMHO.

RayG

[kylenicholas02]

Ray-
I couldn't have said it better. Nothing is worse than a dog that decides it's had enough hunting for you, isnt whoa broke, and spends the rest of the day bumping birds.
I'm also an advocate for "Speed train your bird dog," as he lays a great foundation for the rest of the training process.