Gun Dog Forum

I got two gsp's about two months ago. Neither one of them had much training just ran pretty wild and crazy. Didn't know whoa and it was a hassle to get them to come when called. Most of that has changed now. My problem now is that there previous owner let them go in on birds when he got to them on point. I have been working with them with launchers and pigeons. I cut the birds loose when they start to creep. Have been doing this for a couple weeks now. But still when I get about 5-10 feet from the dog when it is standing on point it will creep in. Sometimes they will go step for step with me when I am trying to get in front of them to flush them. I recently started trying to put them on a check cord with a half hitch around there flanks. Like i did with them for whoa training. So when they go on point i can have a buddy put pressure on the cord to remind them to stay put. They are still wanting to creep and flush. Please help these dogs are great bird finders I just want to be the one to flush the birds I don't like the dogs doing it like some do. Thanks

Yard train whoa with no birds present untill they do it flawlessly
then overlay the collar and continue to use the command and enforce it with the collar wtih no birds present

then go back to birds and use the collar when they start creeping to stop them ( you should be able to do this on a very low setting at this point becasue they will be responding to the collar) combine this stim with picking their butts up and placing them back where they assumed the first point and where they were standing when you said whoa,

EDIT I'll ADD THIS (have the stim on continuous so when you do it it stays on while you pick the dog up and place it back where it moved the immediately turn it off when you place the dog this will make it clear to the dog hes being stimed for moving and not for the bird USE THE LOWEST LEVEL STIM YOUR COLLAR HAS THAT THE DOG CAN FEEL) ya gotta move fast the stium usally will go off on its own in about 10 seconds

IF they were really whoa broke they would stop on the command so thats your goal get that done real solid before you go near any more birds


cant really blame the dogs if the previous owner encouraged this( I'm just making a observation not saying you are blaming them)

If you use a flank rope I think I would use the ecollar on the rear. This can be of the hardest to break, as they are vertually trained to do it wrong. It may take some time. 2 months is not alot of time, just be consistant. I would train them steady to wing, then when they are standing right, start to shoot birds, mixing it up. Flush 2, then if they do it right, shoot one.

I have not been using whoa when i get to them. I did not want to have to use whoa on birds. Because if im not to them yet or don't see them on point I don't want them thinking that i will say whoa when i want them to stop. Instead of just staying on point till the bird is flushed. I have been using the collar overlapping it with the whoa training in the yard and then taking it to the field to get them to stop. But they have been able to creep and are intense about birds so i don't want to fry them and get them apprehensive. And no of course I don't blame the dogs. Not there fault that they were allowed to do this. I am just trying to get it fixed before bird season.

Say Whoa. If dog moves past that use a correction. If you properly trained the command, the dog should not move after using the command...Period.

You definitely don't need to fry them just a light stim to re-enforce the whoa if you do it right the dog will know its getting stimed for not whoaing.

You wont be whoaing the dog to a point, the dogs are already pointing THEN moving they will get it

One thing often overlooked....Are you movingin for the flush from behind the dog or from the side or front? Moving in from behind or beside is tough on some dogs...they want to go with you.

Another thing you might add to your whoa training is a visual cue. I put a finger up when I command "whoa". Then when I move in front the front to flush...I can give not only the verbal, but visual "whoa". It seems to help.

Another thing I'll do is to pick that dog up, shake him up, and set him back commanding, NO, WHOA!!!. A little pressure doesn't hurt a dog when it's jerking you around.

Work them in the yard more, tempting them unmercifully. If they aren't steady in the yard, you don't stand a prayer in the field.

Put the e-collar around the stomach.When he starts to creep stimulate him without saying anything.

Brittguy wrote:Put the e-collar around the stomach.When he starts to creep stimulate him without saying anything.

Unless the dog knows what the stimulation means in that situation, this correction can back fire. jmo

wow this is all great stuff. I really thank you all for all of your input in helping me out. The dogs were whoa trained on the whoa post so they are used to having a check cord around their waist with some pressure on it. So I decided to put the other electronic collar on the waist to see if that made a difference. Beings she is already somewhat conditioned to having something around her waist. This did work very well. I actually had the dog start to creep when I went in and she actually took two steps back to her original spot when i put the stimulation on. So I figured the dog must have an idea of what the stimulation meant and will only get better with time. Although the first couple times she did get several steps before she stopped and i went and set her back where she originally pointed. But any and all comments and suggestions are great so let me know what ya think.

Here is a little different view to your situation. if these are hunting dogs, creeping itself should not be a crime. often dogs will move to continue to pinpoint a bird. going in to flush/catch the bird, this is the real issue. i agree with teaching whoa away from the birds until it is perfected but to stop the creeping try this.
get some remote launchers and a bunch of pigeons/quail whatever
if the dog is not perfectly whoa broke do this with a check cord on
take the dog across the wind as far back from the launcher as you can and still get a point.
once the dog points, wait, walk around ect keeping the check cord loose but controlled enough that if the dog really breaks that it cannot get to the bird/launcher
after establishing point, as soon as the dog moves, launch the bird.
once the bird has flown away heel the dog away from the area
repeat.
if the dog breaks at the bird when it flushes, it needs more steady to wing work.
once the dog learns that if ti moves, the bird gets away, the creeping will disappear for most dogs and the dog still knows that it can move to find a bird if it really has to.
if this dog does not have much experience/training, you can do all of this now to a certian degree and make some good progress without to much pressure on the dog. if the dog is much further along, i would wait until it is steady to wing/shot/fall and wild flush.
we do this with young dogs before ever teaching whoa as part of their early training and it is a great low pressure lesson.
justin

Brittguy wrote:Put the e-collar around the stomach.When he starts to creep stimulate him without saying anything.

Ditto

Charlie

Will wrote: I put a finger up when I command "whoa

IMO I have never really liked this method, I think it leads to dogs looking around on point and they loose intensity. I think if you feel comfortable that the dogs know the commands they just might be testing you and seeing what you will accept,,,, I will use a 2 ft. lead and when they go to creep, walk back and pick them up and spin them, that usually gets there attention pretty good.

What do you mean "spin them"? Are you flipping them 180 degrees

LOL splain that Rich.

Maurice

I assume you spin them around and set them back?

I'm gonna guess Rich and Mo are talking about the spin, Mr. Gibbons and Mr. West do? I saw Mr. Gibbons do that on a pointer, the dog never knew what happened, never let down, just stood there, I've never tried it but I sure can see the benefit in some situations for sure.......MMMMM Believe I saw Mo do it as well somewhere maybe.....

Chip

I would approach this from a different angle...

If we agree that dogs are 1) predators, 2) pack animals, and 3) really want to get a bird in their mouth then you have to ask yourself since you are the Alpha in the pack "is the dog creeping in step for step with you really because the previous owner expected the dog to flush the bird?" or could it be that "the dog is creeping in because you are seen as competition to him in your attempt to get the bird that he found?" Moreover, you should also be asking yourself "if the dog is steady through the whole process and does not creep in after the bird, what is the reward for the dog?" Are you shooting these birds for the dog as a reward for doing the right thing?

Assuming there is some kind of reward for the dog performing to your expectations, if the dog is solid until you begin to walk in and then begins to creep with you, I would simply just step back away from the dog and bird and wait and see what happens. If the dog continues to creep, I would launch the bird and not reward the dog with a bird in its mouth. However, if the dog tightens up and is staunch, I would approach once again slowly and if the dog moves with me, I would back out again and wait. Only a totally steady dog that allows me to move in and shoot a bird for it gets rewarded with a bird in its mouth. That should teach the dog "hey, if I don't move and I let the Alpha do his thing, I get rewarded with a bird." On the hand, "if I try and move, either the bird is going to fly away or the Alpha is not going to move in and shoot me a bird."

All of the other suggestions will certainly work with many dogs, but timing and reading the dog is critical, otherwise the dog may begin to loose focus on the bird and begin wondering if he is going to get shocked, picked up, restrained, etc... while on point. This may take some dog's attention off the bird and while many dogs can withstand this kind of pressure, it could cause problems in other dogs.