Roading a bird

[BellaDad]

Took my 11mo GSP to our NAVHDA this past weekend. She did great, got her on her first duck search and plenty of bird work. I noticed this issue when we had her working the large field. She was running down wind of the bird that we planted about 25-30 yards, caught scent made a sharp left turn straight at the bird ran up to just about 5-10 yards from the bird and locked up.

She's naturally steady to flush and I'm not taking her any further than that until after a full season of hunting, we'll start next spring on STS. She's steady to flush or if the bird runs so we were working on trying to test her by kicking in the brush, taking my time, etc. to keep her steady until the flush.

The problem I have with that is the roading of the bird. I guess it isnt' full roading, but it's close enough. I know the answer is either put her on some wild birds and they'll teach her to back off, or get her on a launcher and as soon as she makes that turn and takes a step pop it. That brings me to problem #2 and the issue with the solution to the first problem. She still loves chasing birds in the air. So popping the bird from the launcher doesn't do any good b/c then she gets to chase.

She's never busted a bird in the field on her own but around the house or on a walk when a bird is on the sidewalk, etc. she will start chase when it flies off and will chase them all day.

[mountaindogs]

It is true that the launchers only work if you restrain the dog from chasing. Chasing is fun too.

[slistoe]

Sounds like she is not ready to be off the CC.

If she stopped 10 yards back of the launcher and was staunch at that point, I would hardly call that crowding the bird. The problem with trying to re-enact wild flushing birds with the launcher is that there is never a consistent trigger point for the dog. Somehow the dog needs to learn how to read the bird it has in front of him and react to that bird - putting pressure on the bird but stopping just short of forcing the flush. Having a dog that stops at the first whiff of bird scent in the area is rather useless to the hunter. There is no such thing as a dog that points too close to a wild bird - unless they make the bird fly.

With that philosophy in mind I only use launchers with the dog under control of the CC and I can direct where they will make contact, being sure that the dog crosses the wind sufficiently close to the bird that is will be a "must point" scenario. Once they have learned the requisite manners around birds they can run free on wild ones and learn how to get it right on them within the rules I have established.

[BellaDad]

She is still on the CC anytime we have birds around should have said that. She doesn't bust birds but even so I feel you lose any chance of control when you train w/o a long CC so I always keep her on it. I don't necessarily want her to stop at first scent, but I don't want her to run 10-20 yards into a bird when she knew it was there in the first place.

[mountaindogs]

and do you restrain her from chasing? Are you holding the CC when she moves in on a bird?

[north country guy]

HAs This Dog Been Whoa Broke ?? Traning Collar On Flank Yet ?? Or Now On The Neck ??? U need To Stop The Chase First !! Then The Creep If Needed !! Remember To Use Constant Pressure Till Dog Stops .Then U Can Relese With Head Tap Or Whistle > voice comand . IF Unsure About This PM Me With Your # And I Can Talk U Thru This >>>> Dog Needs To Be Collar Cond > First .

[Sharon]

The first picture that came to my mind was birds in little harnesses running along beside the atv. I know, too much coffee.

( Maybe it's those jumbo quail that need to be roaded.)

[RayGubernat]

The first picture that came to my mind was birds in little harnesses running along beside the atv. I know, too much coffee.

That IS funny.
I can just see hooking up a pheasant to a harness and letting it get those legs into shape...likethey really need it.

RayG

[Neil]

I want them to self-relocate, it is the creeping that I find hard to keep out of them. They must learn when they do not have or lose contact with the bird to go to it fast and hard. That will more likely freeze the bird.

In a trial, if they road a bird and are unlucky enough for the bird to pop while they are still moving, most judges are going to order them up.

I do not train for the dog to freeze at first scent, but when he does point I want him to do so with conviction, not point, creep, point, creep. I hear people brag about their dog trailing a bird for 300 yards like that is a good thing, the dog could have just as soon of pointed at the edge of the field saying, "Boss, the bird is out there somewhere, heck if I know where."

It is as bad as a false pointing dog.

Neil

[gonehuntin']

You don't know what the scenting conditions in the field were. If a dog only gets a vague scent of the bird, they'll move in until the scent becomes stronger, then lock up. That's what I want a dog to do. If they all lock up at the faintest trace of scent, you're going to get a zillion unproductive points every time you step into the field.

I don't think there was a thing wrong with the way the dog handles the bird BUT your atttidude on chasing needs correcting. Chasing a bird never helped any dog unless it is a very timid dog with little desire. If you're going to hunt that dog this year, teach it NOW to break off the chase with two shart blasts of the whistle or you're going to have a looooooong hunting season chasing down that outlaw.

[BellaDad]

You don't know what the scenting conditions in the field were. If a dog only gets a vague scent of the bird, they'll move in until the scent becomes stronger, then lock up. That's what I want a dog to do. If they all lock up at the faintest trace of scent, you're going to get a zillion unproductive points every time you step into the field.

I don't think there was a thing wrong with the way the dog handles the bird BUT your atttidude on chasing needs correcting. Chasing a bird never helped any dog unless it is a very timid dog with little desire. If you're going to hunt that dog this year, teach it NOW to break off the chase with two shart blasts of the whistle or you're going to have a looooooong hunting season chasing down that outlaw.

I keep her on the CC, she runs to the end of it at full speed once the bird flushes and almost takes your arm out of socket. I guess I don't understand the difference between leaving the dog steady to flush and this. I can pull her off the chase very easy but if she's on her own she'll chase the pigeon and watch it fly for a while. How do you address a dog that likes chasing birds in the air while maintaining their desire.

She's almost fully whoa broke, I"m not going to say fully b/c there are still a few distractions that will break her. But I don't whoa my dog on birds, I think she needs to learn manners and the such without me telling her to stop each time. I'm not going to be there to say whoa over every bird in Nebraska this year. Also, she's collar conditioned but I don't use that on birds either, don't want the negative association.

So back to my question, if anythign she crowds the bird but it sounds like that isn't such a huge deal. I think some wild birds will help fix that. She's on the CC and I keep her from chasing miles down the road but how do I get a dog over this tendency to chase the flying birds?

[Ricky Ticky Shorthairs]

IMO You need to incorporate the shock collar into your program. The dog needs to learn that the nick from the collar means stop too. If your dog loves birds, and you intro the collar correctly, nicking the dog on birds won't hurt a thing.

Use that collar just like an extention of the cc. Overlay it into your whoa training. I would use both at first, then transition to just the shock collar. Do all of this silently, just like you are doing now.

When you stop the dog with the cc you need to be close to the dog, so it gets the idea that it needs to stay put. A long cc in this situation just allows the dog to take many steps before stopping.

YOU NEED TO REMEMBER, SHE's ONLY 11 MO. OLD!!!

I would get her to the point that she will stop when being nicked away from birds consistantly, and then take her wild bird hunting this season. The birds will probably teach her quite a bit. After a few bird contacts see if she will stop on a light nick. If not that's OK. You can add that into your training next summer.

It sounds like she needs to learn to handle birds, and that comes with experience.

This is kinda a vague answer, so PM me if you have ?'s

Doug

[mountaindogs]

interesting how many different opinions have been stated here as the thing you need to do. My only comment is this. If you want a dog that releases immediatly after the flush you will always have a dog that will chase to some degree. If you want a dog that does not chase then the dog cannot release until the bird is shot.

Our first GSP is steady to flush only and she will still chase a little but turns off of the bird is not shot. It took her years to develope the experience to really know when a bird is down or not but she does. She is a great dog nearly all natural with very little steadying and all dog while actually hunting. But probably the last steady to flush only dog I will have. Steady to shot is a nice midpont for me.

SO what exactly are you trying to achieve with your pup here. How steady are you looking to get your dog? AT what point do you want them to release from the point?

[BellaDad]

What I worry about with the whole situation is while we're out hunting wild birds her scenting the bird and running up on it to where she currently stops and accidently bumping or busting the bird, but as she enjoys the chase once they're flushed that it could be problematic. While we're out hunting things are out of my control and are then between her and the birds (for the most part). In the case of poor flying pigeons and most likely quail she will chase them and try to catch them when they land, that's what I don't want to get into while out hunting wild birds.

I eventually want her at least steady to shot, but not this year. She's still young at 11 months and this will be her first full season.

[slistoe]

It is her first hunting season. She needs to learn how close is too close. She need to learn to work birds. She will knock birds. She will chase birds. That is what young dogs do. It is part of the learning process.

Work on calling her off the chase. Shoot some training birds for her. Let some fly. Show her there is a difference. Ones you shoot she gets, the rest fly away.

[wfkgsps]

Work on calling her off the chase. Shoot some training birds for her. Let some fly. Show her there is a difference. Ones you shoot she gets, the rest fly away.

I would add that you need to be disciplined during hunting season. If she handles the wild birds exactly right...shoot them for her. If she is roading, bumping, etc. let them fly. Which means you need to hunt by yourself or with others who are understanding of your goals. Don't get her out in a party that just wants to shoot birds.

[Neil]

Work on calling her off the chase. Shoot some training birds for her. Let some fly. Show her there is a difference. Ones you shoot she gets, the rest fly away.

I would add that you need to be disciplined during hunting season. If she handles the wild birds exactly right...shoot them for her. If she is roading, bumping, etc. let them fly. Which means you need to hunt by yourself or with others who are understanding of your goals. Don't get her out in a party that just wants to shoot birds.

I have never found that to be true.

If it were, would not the opposite also be true? If she points and you shoot and miss, she does not learn to point? I don't think my dogs keep score that finely, I do miss some. And I shoot some they don't point. If they care, I haven't heard them say so.

Dogs are going to knock and chase birds until the learn not to, and they are going to revert back if they are not often reminded; I have never seen a dog that was 100% staunch 100% of the time. Shooting or not shooting at birds has little to do with it. Other dogs breaking or not breaking has little to do with it. My training has a lot to do with it.

But as someone said it is a 11 month old pup, relax and give it some time to be a pup, it is going to one now or later,

Neil

[mountaindogs]

Also your pup will point from further away and hold tighter without relocting, or moving in on the scent as much as experience/confidence kicks in. Actual hunting teaches a dog ALOT and should be used as much as possible.

[gonehuntin']

As I said, to me, your big problem is breaking her off the chase. It's an easy problem to cure and you can do it in a couple of ways. What you'll do is to whistle train her and break her of fly-aways at the same time. You can start this right in the yard. Have the pup on a cc on a 1" leather or nylon collar. Leave some slack in it. Have a helper throw a pigeon. When the pup charges the bird, just before she hits the cc, give two blasts of the whistle, yell NO!, and tip her over. From now on, two whistle blasts will mean NO. You can stop unwanted behavior, break the dog off flyaways, shorten his range, change his direction. Two blasts mean NO.

Keep at this until when you blow two blasts, that dog veers off the bird and comes back to you. Don't say "whoa". Now try it on a wild flush out of a launcher. Work the dog to a launcher UPWIND form it and on a cc. When the pup runs by, pop the bird and when he chases, two toots and NO. This is the start of steadying the dog to incidental or wild flush. You want the dog to stop whenever a bird flushes wild, but that'll be later.

Do this under controlled conditions and in the yard first, then the training field. It really doesn't take any time and all and pays great dividends.

During the fall the birds will teach him how close he can crowd them. You can help with launchers, my favorite tool, but if you don't own any, just work him on wild birds.

With my dogs, I don't shoot any bird they don't point. I don't want to reward them for undesired behavior. If I'm hunting and they bust a bird, I set them back, give them a good firm NO, and proceed. It's no different than blanking a bird during training.

[birddogger]

[quote="Sharon"]The first picture that came to my mind was birds in little harnesses running along beside the atv. I know, too much coffee.

( Maybe it's those jumbo quail that need to be roaded.)[/quote

Don't feel bad Sharon, that is the exact same picture I had
Charlie

[mountaindogs]

me too, that was the whole reason I clicked on the link first, cause I thought "what the heck?!"

[BellaDad]

That's the advice I was looking for, thanks Gonehuntin'.

As I said, to me, your big problem is breaking her off the chase. It's an easy problem to cure and you can do it in a couple of ways. What you'll do is to whistle train her and break her of fly-aways at the same time. You can start this right in the yard. Have the pup on a cc on a 1" leather or nylon collar. Leave some slack in it. Have a helper throw a pigeon. When the pup charges the bird, just before she hits the cc, give two blasts of the whistle, yell NO!, and tip her over. From now on, two whistle blasts will mean NO. You can stop unwanted behavior, break the dog off flyaways, shorten his range, change his direction. Two blasts mean NO.

Keep at this until when you blow two blasts, that dog veers off the bird and comes back to you. Don't say "whoa". Now try it on a wild flush out of a launcher. Work the dog to a launcher UPWIND form it and on a cc. When the pup runs by, pop the bird and when he chases, two toots and NO. This is the start of steadying the dog to incidental or wild flush. You want the dog to stop whenever a bird flushes wild, but that'll be later.

Do this under controlled conditions and in the yard first, then the training field. It really doesn't take any time and all and pays great dividends.

During the fall the birds will teach him how close he can crowd them. You can help with launchers, my favorite tool, but if you don't own any, just work him on wild birds.

With my dogs, I don't shoot any bird they don't point. I don't want to reward them for undesired behavior. If I'm hunting and they bust a bird, I set them back, give them a good firm NO, and proceed. It's no different than blanking a bird during training.