stopping car chasing

[cmccoy76]

We live on a small dirt road in the country that has little traffic. Less than ten cars go by in a day. My 7 month old pup is buddies with a little dog acrossed the road and that little dog loves to chase cars. Well, my dog has started doing it now. My dog is up during the day but in the evening I let him run in the yard while I am out there. I need to stop the chasing because he got hit last week. It wasnt hard because my neighbour was slowing down and Finn just bounced off the bumper. All the "here" and "no" work goes out the window now when a car goes by. So, for now I keep him on a check cord in the yard. I dont have an E-collar yet but I can fix that. How should I go about breaking the car chasing. Should I do my collar intro stuff and work up to trash breaking? I really just want to stick a collar on him and light him up on the cars but I figure thats not the way to do it.

[EvanG]

I dont have an E-collar yet but I can fix that.

That will help a great deal, as long as you do proper conditioning to it. E-collar conditioning to "Here" is key - now and through his working career; he must come when called. If he comes when called, he cannot at the same time chase cars!

How should I go about breaking the car chasing. Should I do my collar intro stuff and work up to trash breaking? I really just want to stick a collar on him and light him up on the cars but I figure thats not the way to do it.

Obedience train your dog, and collar condition him. Then use your e-collar to support your commands. Problem solved.

EvanG

[R-Middleton]

You need to apply avoidance training with the e-collar for any unwanted behavior, like chasing deer, cars, cattle, or anything that is not wanted. Turn the transmitter to the highest level, don't say anything, and shock the heck out of him. You should not have to give him a command not to do these things. Collar conditioning is for teaching commands and should done correctly. Get a good quality collar and read the instruction manual.

Ray

[mudhunter]

What Ray said above. Let him wear the collar everywhere you can so he doesn't become collar wise to quickly but you don't need to do anything else.

Just shock him real hard when he chases and don't say anything or react to him, "The car shocked him, not you"! (as far as he knows)

[RayGubernat]

What Ray and Mud said.

Strap the collar on and have your neighbor drive by nice an slow and careful. You should probably be either out of sight or inside. When the dog takes of after the dog hit it with the highest level for the full eight seconds.

About fifteen minutes later have another car come back down the road. if the dog takes more than a step toward the car... nail it again...the same way.

As previously mentioned, say nothing, no cautioning, no yelling...nothing.

If the dog comes flying around to the back of the house squalling, I would bend down and comfort the dog very solicitously..."WHAT HAPPENED? YOU POOR BABY! ARE YOU ALL RIGHT! DADDY WILL PROTECT YOU! Do exactly the opposite of what you would normally do if the dog were frightened of something because in this instance, you want to reinforce that fear.

That sort of stuff.

Bad car. Bad car. Snicker, snicker. It works.

RayG

[gonehuntin']

I'd get the collar and use it, but if you don't want to, there's another way. Have a friend drive slowly by in a car with a guy in the back seat. When the dog takes off after the car (don't be afraid to have them coax her), have the guy in the back pelt her in the face with a water baloon with maybe a touch of tabasco in it so he gets her eyes stung.

Collar of water baloon, don't overdo it so much that you won't be able to get her NEAR cars!!

[birddogger]

I'd get the collar and use it, but if you don't want to, there's another way. Have a friend drive slowly by in a car with a guy in the back seat. When the dog takes off after the car (don't be afraid to have them coax her), have the guy in the back pelt her in the face with a water baloon with maybe a touch of tabasco in it so he gets her eyes stung.

Collar of water baloon, don't overdo it so much that you won't be able to get her NEAR cars!!

I will bet that this will work, but I am still laughing.

Charlie

[nitrex]

I'd get the collar and use it, but if you don't want to, there's another way. Have a friend drive slowly by in a car with a guy in the back seat. When the dog takes off after the car (don't be afraid to have them coax her), have the guy in the back pelt her in the face with a water baloon with maybe a touch of tabasco in it so he gets her eyes stung.

Collar of water baloon, don't overdo it so much that you won't be able to get her NEAR cars!!

You better have good aim or you just encouraged her to chase one more car, reinforcing the behavior you don't want!

Nitrex

[cmccoy76]

Thanks guys. I was already planning to get a collar but I was saving up for a good one. A buddy of mine has a spare he said I could borrow so I think I will go that route. I think I had better stick to a collar. After the little incident where he bounce off the bumper he has wanted to chase even more which is the opposite of what I would have thought.

[gonehuntin']

I'd get the collar and use it, but if you don't want to, there's another way. Have a friend drive slowly by in a car with a guy in the back seat. When the dog takes off after the car (don't be afraid to have them coax her), have the guy in the back pelt her in the face with a water baloon with maybe a touch of tabasco in it so he gets her eyes stung.

Collar of water baloon, don't overdo it so much that you won't be able to get her NEAR cars!!

You better have good aim or you just encouraged her to chase one more car, reinforcing the behavior you don't want!

Nitrex

The car is creeping and barely moving. The guy in the back seat is 2-3'from the dog. Even a senile old bas@#rd like me can smack a pooch in the moosh with a balloon at that range.

[Hooks and bullets]

Evans method is the proper way to go.

If you just strap it on the dog and set it at a high level, what happens if the
dog bolts?? Yes you may get the dog to avoid the car but he/she may also bolt from the area and avoid you and the setting where the high heat took place. The dog must understand how to stop the uncomfortable feeling of the e-collar.
This is accomplished by first teaching the dog the command and then conditioning him/her
with the e-collar to turn the pressure off by complying with the command in a controlled area, with the use of a leash/rope.
Once this is accomplished, you could use the e-collar to recall the dog away from the car.

[ezzy333]

I don't think I would want to call the dog away but rather shock it heavy enough that it wont get near a moving car again. This is completely different than training with a collar.

Ezzy

[Ditch__Parrot]

I don't think I would want to call the dog away but rather shock it heavy enough that it wont get near a moving car again. This is completely different than training with a collar.

Ezzy

Although I agree with ezzy here, in that you want to trash break the dog off of chasing cars just as you would chasing deer. BUT. I would think that you would want the dog already collar conditioned before doing any trash breaking. Just seems like it could cause problems once you get to collar conditioning if the dog was trash broke first. Why take the chance. Put the dog on a check cord until you have it collar conditioned. Then trash break it.

[RayGubernat]

Evans method is the proper way to go.

If you just strap it on the dog and set it at a high level, what happens if the
dog bolts?? Yes you may get the dog to avoid the car but he/she may also bolt from the area and avoid you and the setting where the high heat took place. The dog must understand how to stop the uncomfortable feeling of the e-collar.
This is accomplished by first teaching the dog the command and then conditioning him/her
with the e-collar to turn the pressure off by complying with the command in a controlled area, with the use of a leash/rope.
Once this is accomplished, you could use the e-collar to recall the dog away from the car.

I very much disagree with this approach. This is avoidance training, pure and simple. You want the dog to think that car, or dog or porcupine or whatever is the baddest thing on this earth and that IT is what caused him all that pain. The very best time to do this is BEFORE the dog has any idea what an e-collar is.

If the dog rolls over, pees itself and freezes, go pick the dog up and cuddle it like I said. If the dog runs to the backyard, be its savior. If the dog bolts...so what? It will come back...eventually... and when it does put it away. In each and every case, the desired outcome was achieved. The dog thinks the car bit him and bit him bad. The dog is afraid of the car. Job done. A dog that is afraid of a car is not the end of the earth. It will get over it.
You collar condition a dog as a precursor to obedience training. This is avoidance training. Not the same. Not at all.

Once a dog is collar conditioned and understands whoa or no or come, then you stop the car chasing by issuing one of those commands and when and if the dog ignores the command...then you give it a high hard one with the collar for disobeying a known command. I personally would not wait that long.

Look, this is serious stuff. The dog needs to be broke off chasing cars or it is going to wind up underneath a wheel and crushed. Having a dog die in your arms from crushed lungs is not my idea of fun. Did it once and do not wish to do it...ever again. You got lucky the first time. You might not be so lucky the second time. I would not pussyfoot around with this. Get it done. A dog that is scared of cars for a little while is far better than a dead one.

RayG

[Hooks and bullets]

How do you know the dog will come back eventually when it bolts from the pressure ?
How do you know the dog won't get its lungs crushed by a different car while running scared from your style of training methods ? The vast majority of good professional trainers all agree the e-collar is used to reinforce commands the dog already knows. Start with obedience training, then condition the dog with the e-collar in a controlled environment using a rope or leash to teach him the OUT. Don't forget positive reinforcement when the dog complies with the commands. Its called building a foundation, no short cuts in the road to long term behavior management !!

Good Luck.

[ezzy333]

How do you know the dog will come back eventually when it bolts from the pressure ?
How do you know the dog won't get its lungs crushed by a different car while running scared from your style of training methods ? The vast majority of good professional trainers all agree the e-collar is used to reinforce commands the dog already knows. Start with obedience training, then condition the dog with the e-collar in a controlled environment using a rope or leash to teach him the OUT. Don't forget positive reinforcement when the dog complies with the commands. Its called building a foundation, no short cuts in the road to long term behavior management !!

Good Luck.

This is exactly how you use a collar for training. But the other use is to trash break your dog. This may be deer, rabbits, porkies, snakes or whatever including cars. And the way it is done is to hit them hard and not say a word so they think that whatever they are chasing did it too them. Never saw a dog run off but have always had them come in to me.

This is the way most everyone does it it including the pro trainers. For a matter of fact they are the ones that usually put on the clinics.

Ezzy

[Hooks and bullets]

I've attended seminars by Mike Lardy, Dave Rorem, Tom Dokken, Terry Holzinger, Pat Nolan, Danny Farmer and Evan Graham just to name a few. Never saw any of these top professionals use or condone using an e-collar without teaching a dog the OUT first.

[gonehuntin']

I've attended seminars by Mike Lardy, Dave Rorem, Tom Dokken, Terry Holzinger, Pat Nolan, Danny Farmer and Evan Graham just to name a few. Never saw any of these top professionals use or condone using an e-collar without teaching a dog the OUT first.

I am in TOTAL agreement with that. There's still so much many pointing dog trainers don't seem to understand about ecollar useage. With most I've run into, it's a sometime thing, not an all the time thing and few pointing dogs are totally broken out on it, from obedience through ff.

If they were, people would be more careful about how it's used.

[RayGubernat]

Guys -

I am not going to argue about this. If you want to collar condition a dog first and then treat everything as an obedience issue from then on, that is fine by me. That will work.

However, I have avoidance trained several pointers , specifically for avoidance of deer, by strapping the collar on an unconditioned dog, taking it to where there were deer and when the dog showed interest in either live deer or a spoor, shocking it at a high, continuous intensity, without saying a single word, in each and every case the following happened:

The dog stopped dead in its tracks and vocalized and was generally laid down by the stimulation. The instant the stimulation stopped, the dog looked up and came running back to me like its life depended on it. Not a single one bolted away from me or toward the deer. In point of fact , they CAME directly to me... for protection I think. In each case I cuddled the dog and make a big fuss over it. In all but one case, the dogs never, ever chased deer again, for the rest of their lives and in fact often went in the opposite direction. The one dog that chased again, chased a second time... got hammered a second time and then decided that deer were not any fun to mess with... again... for the rest of his life.

When a dog runs out of fear, it either runs away from something it is afraid of or runs toward someone or something where it feels it can be safe. I have had puppies not come to me because they were having too much fun but I have never had a puppy run from me from fear. When they are afraid...they run TO me.

I have had older dogs not come to me and avoid me because they messed up and knew that they wer going to get punished for messing up... but not a puppy.

If someone is so all fired worried about a dog bolting from them, then, IMHO they have not done their job as a trainer to make that dog think that the sun rises and sets on them and that they are that dogs very best friend. But each person trains differently. Some folks want their dogs to fear them, I suppose. I do not. I aim for respect and trust.

Do what you think is best. I can only tell you what worked for me.

RayG

[gonehuntin']

Better safe than sorry Ray. I would NEVER take a chance like that. I've, in my lifetime, had to cure too many bolters caused by unreasonable use of the collar. Just my two cents, but I always try to train in ways that I know won't cause problems to me later.

[Hooks and bullets]

Ray, not looking for an argument, we just have different views on the use of the e-collar.
Good point GH. WHY start with punishment training when you can condition the dog properly
to the e-collar and build a proper foundation for future training.
Training your dog is a marathon not a sprint.

[RayGubernat]

Guys -

I have done this several times and never had a problem, but my training has been limited to pointers and pretty hard charging ones at that.

Experiences are different and thise certainly can lead to different conclusions.

RayG

[JohnGrasty]

To me it seems the debate is missing the central point.

Is "not chasing cars" some command that I want my setters to obey? Well in one sense, yes. In another sense, NO. I do NOT want to have to command my dogs to stop chasing a car. I want the car itself to be the stimuli/command/cue to avoid it. How can I accomplish this? Well I can take the approach that some here are advocating that would begin by introducing a command away from the car, then overlay the e-collar cue, and then finally teach that the car itself is the cue–much training a dog to whoa at the sight of a flushing bird. The problem is that to do this reliably–which one needs if we are talking about a life or death issue–you would have to spend as much time as you do whoa breaking a dog.

I'm sorry, but I would rather break my dog to wing and shot and road him, than to spend WEEKS teaching them to not chase a car.

The answer then would be a much simpler form of conditions as per RayG and others. Avoidance training based on punishment.

**I would be mindful though of my surroundings and what could happen. What is my plan if the dog bolts, etc.?

[birddogger]

I will have to agree with Ray on this one. FWIW, what he said have been my experiences also. I also agree that personal experiences will dictate how one handles different training situations. In some cases, there is not necessarily a right or wrong answer. This is just my two cents.

Charlie

[BDBUzi]

Ray, not looking for an argument, we just have different views on the use of the e-collar.
Good point GH. WHY start with punishment training when you can condition the dog properly
to the e-collar and build a proper foundation for future training.
Training your dog is a marathon not a sprint.

You don't have differing views from my perspective. You both clearly understand that the primary use of the collar is to reinforce known commands once proper conditioning has been established.

Another, often secondary use is to trash break the dogs with collars (as has been laid out in the posts before).

I'd be willing to bet that now that the bad behavior (car chasing) is engrained, the dogs prey drive would be in high gear while in full chase. He'd probably disobey whatever obedience command was given thinking he can catch the car. IMHO, you may risk setting back your obedience training, and never truly CURING the problem of chasing cars. Also, what happens if you're not around to give a command, and call him off (collar or not)? ...You get the dreadful call that you've lost your best friend.

Take the advice of those with many, many years experience, and TRASH BREAK the dog of cars.

[gonehuntin']

Here's the problem with trash breaking him now. IF that collar is to be used on him later, two things can, and probably will happen: 1) He'll fear the collar. If you want him to wear it full time, that's not good. 2) He'll become collar wise. Also not good if he's to be a collar dog.

These specific programs have been developed and well tested over 30 years for these dogs. The retriever guys understand them, few pointing dog owners do. You MUST follow a program IF the dog is to be hunted and trained with a collar.

The advantage to the water ballon thing is that the dog won't bolt, won't associate punishment with a collar, and you will not have to command him not to chase the car. It's so easy.

[Hooks and bullets]

The e-collar is more than just a punishment tool.
I'd recommend this video for anyone looking to e-collar condition a gun dog or a dog for competition.
Makes no difference if it is a retriever, pointer or spaniel this will enlighten
you to the proper use of the e-collar and how direct and indirect pressure is used in training.
http://www.totalretriever.com/ecollar.htm

[ezzy333]

I have had the same experience many times as Ray has had. And I never had a problem using the e-collar afterwards. I can understand how it could happen but it sure isn't likely inb my book. I think there are two uses for a collar and the two take completely different methods. Trash breaking is done with high stimulation and absolutely no command. I want the dog to know it is the other animal causing the pain. Training is done with low stimulation only after knowing the commands and the trainer giving it one. In this case the dog may know the trainer is causing the pain but if done properly it will think that it is disobeying the command that caused it. Dogs don't do a lot of thinking but rely on us to do that for them so they do not connect the two occurances unless we connect them by treating trash breaking as training. Then you may have the problem GH is talking about. Keep the two procedures completely seperate and different and it will work.

Ezzy

[birddogger]

I have had the same experience many times as Ray has had. And I never had a problem using the e-collar afterwards. I can understand how it could happen but it sure isn't likely inb my book. I think there are two uses for a collar and the two take completely different methods. Trash breaking is done with high stimulation and absolutely no command. I want the dog to know it is the other animal causing the pain. Training is done with low stimulation only after knowing the commands and the trainer giving it one. In this case the dog may know the trainer is causing the pain but if done properly it will think that it is disobeying the command that caused it. Dogs don't do a lot of thinking but rely on us to do that for them so they do not connect the two occurances unless we connect them by treating trash breaking as training. Then you may have the problem GH is talking about. Keep the two procedures completely seperate and different and it will work.

Ezzy

This is what I was getting ready to say, but ezzy beat me to it and probably said it better than I could have anyway. In any case, I am in total agreement, just from my experience with the collar.

Charlie

[CherrystoneWeims]

I have to say that I too am in agreement with Ray and others who said to use the avoidance method with the collar. I've used this method with the collar for several very young Weims and never had a problem with collar conditioning afterwards. I had to do it with Pearl when she was about 10 mos. old because she was wanting to kill our family cat (although I hate that cat and wouldn't mind seeing it gone!!) I strapped the collar on her and when she went to get the cat I shocked the bejesus out of her. She thought that nasty cat had hurt her. She never has gone after a cat since then.

How do you think snake breaking is done???????? Go to a snake breaking seminar and you will see............

I would rather have a controlled situation and do avoidance training rather than some stranger driving down the road at an accelerated speed and having my dog killed.

As far as the water balloon method my dogs are such retrieving fools that they probably would try to retrieve the balloon. They might think it was great fun to try and catch it!

[slistoe]

These specific programs have been developed and well tested over 30 years for these dogs. The retriever guys understand them, few pointing dog owners do. You MUST follow a program IF the dog is to be hunted and trained with a collar.

I will agree that most pointing dog owners do not understand how retriever guys use the collar in a training program, but pointing dog pros most certainly understand how a collar is used in pointing dog training and they are saying that using a collar for trash breaking works and does not interfere with the use that will be made of the collar in further training - a la pointing dog style.

Of course I wouldn't expect an old time, dyed in the wool retriever guy to understand that.

[gonehuntin']

Of course I wouldn't expect an old time, dyed in the wool retriever guy to understand that.

You must have me confused. I've always trained pointing dogs and retrievers, but in fact haven't owned a retriever in over 15 years.

There was a time though, that I did specialize in field trial retrievers but it's been many years ago.

[Sharon]

Evans method is the proper way to go.

If you just strap it on the dog and set it at a high level, what happens if the
dog bolts?? Yes you may get the dog to avoid the car but he/she may also bolt from the area and avoid you and the setting where the high heat took place. The dog must understand how to stop the uncomfortable feeling of the e-collar.
This is accomplished by first teaching the dog the command and then conditioning him/her
with the e-collar to turn the pressure off by complying with the command in a controlled area, with the use of a leash/rope.
Once this is accomplished, you could use the e-collar to recall the dog away from the car.

I very much disagree with this approach. This is avoidance training, pure and simple. You want the dog to think that car, or dog or porcupine or whatever is the baddest thing on this earth and that IT is what caused him all that pain. The very best time to do this is BEFORE the dog has any idea what an e-collar is.

If the dog rolls over, pees itself and freezes, go pick the dog up and cuddle it like I said. If the dog runs to the backyard, be its savior. If the dog bolts...so what? It will come back...eventually... and when it does put it away. In each and every case, the desired outcome was achieved. The dog thinks the car bit him and bit him bad. The dog is afraid of the car. Job done. A dog that is afraid of a car is not the end of the earth. It will get over it.
You collar condition a dog as a precursor to obedience training. This is avoidance training. Not the same. Not at all.

Once a dog is collar conditioned and understands whoa or no or come, then you stop the car chasing by issuing one of those commands and when and if the dog ignores the command...then you give it a high hard one with the collar for disobeying a known command. I personally would not wait that long.

Look, this is serious stuff. The dog needs to be broke off chasing cars or it is going to wind up underneath a wheel and crushed. Having a dog die in your arms from crushed lungs is not my idea of fun. Did it once and do not wish to do it...ever again. You got lucky the first time. You might not be so lucky the second time. I would not pussyfoot around with this. Get it done. A dog that is scared of cars for a little while is far better than a dead one.

RayG

Definately the approach that I helped my friend use with his dog , and it worked great. He lives on a farm and the dog is free. It got into the habit of crossing the highway to go to the neighbors for a snack. My friend was worried it would be killed. We hid on the porch; as soon as the dog's feet touched the pavement we stimulated it at a high level. The dog came ripping back to the house where his owner comforted him. Smart boy that he is , he figured that if he moved along the pavement a couple feet and tried it from there, that he might be successful. We had to stimulate 6 times at different spots on the pavement edge before the dog gave up. He hasn't gone towards the road since. My friend had never seen an e-collar and thinks I'm a genius.

3 weeks later I helped my friend to collar condition the dog. Seemingly the dog accepted the collar with no problem. Definately didn't seem to connect the bad experience with the collar.