Critiquing The Delmar Smith Method

[Neil]

Rick,

I suspect I have tried to make this point with you over the years at least a dozen times. You are not and never were an average amateur trainer. You know more and think more about dog behavior than most pros, and certainly way more than any other amateur I know. Not to mention you spend three times as much time in hunting fields as most, and I am out there a good bit.

You do make sense, though,

Neil

[Rick Hall]

Neil, I haven't forgotten your saying something along the lines of "Kie will forgive you." with reference to what you thought the pressure I was putting on him with early training some dozen years ago. And I'll admit I was initially shocked and perhaps even hurt by the assumption of one who's opinion I respected that I was treating the pup unkindly. But as soon as I got past the "Say what?" of it, your stock rose with me, because the statement indicated real concern for the dog, rather than just for the "rightness" of your particular course.

I still believe that if Kie could speak, he'd thank me for bringing him on as he was as compared to the pointing dog rank and file, and his actions have certainly indicated such. But the question of whether I'm doing something for which a dog might need to forgive me has stuck with me in a "What would Jesus do?" sort of way.

Along that same vein, it was you who set me to really thinking about the old trialing axiom, "Every time you put something in, you take something out." My pointing dog methods have from the onset been such that notion wasn't an issue the first however-many times I read or heard it. But because of our increased waterfowling needs, Kie was the first of my pointing dogs to enjoy more than fairly rudimentary retrieving and handling training, and I could see even greater need to compartmentalize training focused on me from field exposure focused on developing independent search and keep them in balance. (And from there transfered the practice of compartmentalizing and ballancing those divergent ends to my retriever puppy training, as well. Which really drives some mainstream retreiving and flushing dog folks bonkers.)

But to return to the point I tried to make about Smith's and other professionally oriented methods and books, I read a pretty good stack of what was available when training my first pointing dog, and the gem that rang the truest to my situation and carried me the farthest as an amateur trainer had just been published by a serious and thoughtful amateur trainer, who brought his puppies on from scratch, one at a time: George Bird Evans. The book was "Troubles With Bird Dogs" - the title of which was the most misleading piece of writing Evans ever did, as it should have been, "Avoiding Troubles With Bird Dogs". I'd highly recommend TWB to any first time trainer, but it's been lost from the booksellers shelves in favor of volumes marketed largely by our craving for professional advice.

That's not intended to imply that there isn't much of great value an amateur can learn from professionanls, only that their situations aren't necessarily or even often the same.

[Neil]

Rick,

It is never safe to remember what I might say, I am still learning, and what I believed for certain, even last year, is called into doubt with new experiences.

Kie loves you so that he would have forgiven most anything, and as I came to know you better, I learned that even if it seemed to me you were pushing him, you were so in tune with him, you would never put pressure on him he didn't understand. It was your mutual love that I underestimated. Isn't there an old bromide, "Being in love means you never have to say you are sorry". You do not owe Kie an apology, I need to apologize to you both. You did just fine. I am certain Kie would not want to change a thing.

One thing I have learned since we first started to converse, if the trainer truly loves and conveys that love to the dog, there is little he can do to harm it. And the biggest advantage amateurs have over a pro is the time they can spend rubbing on the dog. It is a little known fact that nearly all of the great field trial dogs were "truck" dogs, if not house dogs.

I should never have been so bold to critisize you without learning how close you get to your dogs.

So to correct this don't put too much pressure on them the first year of Delmar's, if you truly know your dog, if you truly understand them, you won't and can't go too fast. They can learn much faster than we can teach.

But Rick, do not think of yourself as an average trainer, you are not. What works for you may not work for others that do not spend the quality time with the dogs that you do and GBE did.

Neil

[Rick Hall]

And the biggest advantage amateurs have over a pro is the time they can spend rubbing on the dog. It is a little known fact that nearly all of the great field trial dogs were "truck" dogs, if not house dogs.

I wish I had the memory to properly attribute the quote I came across in the "way back when," but I'm virtually certain it was an extremely successful pointing dog trial pro who said, "The great ones come from the kitchen."

[bossman]

I'm now confused."All the great field trial dogs were "truck" dogs if not house dogs" . Does this mean they were exclusively trained and campaigned by amateur's? Need your definition of "great field trial dogs". In my opinion, while I think it is important for a young dog to be socialized around the house, it has been my experience that the majority of the great, consistant field trial dogs are usually being trained, campaigned and under the care of a professional trainer ( to me a field trial dog is one that competes in AKC or American Field horseback trials..that is my standard). Now they may some and many that do go home after the season for some good loving and,yes, even some bird hunting. But when the season starts or it's time for Summer camp...off they go..I am sure the process is totally different in different "venue's" (shoot to retrieve,etc).. Anyway,just my opinion, but would be interested in hearing comments...Thanks

[ezzy333]

I'm now confused."All the great field trial dogs were "truck" dogs if not house dogs" . Does this mean they were exclusively trained and campaigned by amateur's? Need your definition of "great field trial dogs". In my opinion, while I think it is important for a young dog to be socialized around the house, it has been my experience that the majority of the great, consistant field trial dogs are usually being trained, campaigned and under the care of a professional trainer ( to me a field trial dog is one that competes in AKC or American Field horseback trials..that is my standard). Now they may some and many that do go home after the season for some good loving and,yes, even some bird hunting. But when the season starts or it's time for Summer camp...off they go..I am sure the process is totally different in different "venue's" (shoot to retrieve,etc).. Anyway,just my opinion, but would be interested in hearing comments...Thanks

The great ones rode in the pasager seat and not in a crate and many lived in the house with the trainer while the rest were in their kennel.

Ezzy

[Rick Hall]

That's certainly how I read it, Ezzy.

[Neil]

Yep, that was my intent.

D. Hoyle Eaton's great old Bud (Ch. Riggin's White Knight) and the new Bud (Ch. Sir Lancelot) never spent a night in a kennel. I know some pros that keep certain dogs in the seat with them until a few miles before the trial grounds and then put them in the back. You can guess why. I am thinking back then Old Bud may have done some of the driving, he did everything else.

As to the amateur vs pro thing, when we do beat the pros it is not from greater ability it is from greater report. The current pointer NC and Purina Dog of the Year was ran by an amateur and the top dog in the Brittany DoY points is trained and ran by an amateur. I don't know of a pro that is not a better trainer/handler than I, I sure don't have better dogs, so when I beat them (and I do from time to time) it is because my dogs know, trust, and love me.

And since even the most dedicated of amateurs will only run 3 or 4 dogs, he does not have to waste his time on customer dogs that don't quite have it, he can concentrate on the good ones. Ones he makes better by rubbing on them. No one, no matter how dedicated can give the love and attention a dog requires if he is caring for 40 of them.

So when I hear someone say, "You will ruin a hunting dog by bringing him in the house", I think how great Bud could have been had Hoyle only known.

Neil

[AZ Brittany Guy]

Good point,

Tequila's Joker used to come riding into camp (shotgun) whith Ed Tilson. Heck, TJ would come to the cocktail parties and "work the crowd" for hors d' ouevres on Saturday night.

[jrschultz]

Back to my original query, I really enjoyed the Delmar Smith Method and found him to be more of a "dog whisperer" than a trainer per se. He demonstrates the unique ability to bring a dog to the next level. My point of contention though is truly that first year and possibly having to make the dog "unlearn" any bad habits he might have picked up happy timing (bumping birds far out of range, etc.). I found this same kind of thing in the George Hickox video I just finished watching. They both do things with young dogs that they no longer allow the dog to do when he is older (like chase birds to develop prey drive, then make them steady to wing and shot later on). To me it would make more sense to have the dog's behavior consistent from day one. Like in raising human children, you don't wait until they are older to start developing manners, you start when they are very young so that as they grow they know no other way (at least this is my thinking on the manner!)

I enjoyed the narrative quality of the book, but as a novice trainer of pointing dogs, I would have found a step by step guide and flow chart of events to be more helpful, or if the book would have come with a companion volume that included such a thing. All in all I really enjoyed the book and will hopefully one day be able to put the Smith method to work on a dog of my own.

[tommyboy72]

You still have to let a kid be a kid and a pup be a pup even a well mannered one. JMO

[Neil]

To me it would make more sense to have the dog's behavior consistent from day one. Like in raising human children, you don't wait until they are older to start developing manners, you start when they are very young so that as they grow they know no other way (at least this is my thinking on the manner!)

.

First off, dogs are not children in fur coats.

But if you wanted to raise a child to be a predator, to be able to live off the land and fend for itself, I think you would go less for manners and more for the wild side!

Now, you could be right, and every dog trainer I know wrong, but I am betting not.

Neil

[Rick Hall]

Needn't be either-or, just compartmentalize and do both. Train here, develop independent search there. Early training of manners may, in fact, afford a pup greater latitude to develop its independent search, as there are apt to be any number of locations where a pup with good OB can enjoy largely free rein that a less responsive pup shouldn't be allowed to work. Shoot, most of South Louisiana would be off limits to my pups if their OB and handling weren't strong:



As for chasing game birds or not, following Jim Marti's advice to avoid that habit by teaching stop-to flight/flush early on has sure worked slick for us, as we've avoided the steadiness battles others apparently fight - often for the life of the dog. And my guys are hunted with breaking dogs on a regular basis, steady is just how bird work is for them. Certainly hasn't seined the hunt from their blood, either.

While I mentioned the book in passing earlier, I'll say again that I believe it would be well worth an amateur pointing dog owner/trainer's trouble to find a copy of George Bird Evans' "Troubles With Bird Dogs" to help get he and his pup off to a start that will help save them both breaking woes down the road.

[AZ Brittany Guy]

Interesting analogy using small children as an example. Would you take a two year old child and enroll him in the 1st grade? Of course not you would give him toys that he enjoys playing with and expand his thought process and coordination. You might give him a simple puzzle for him to figure out. Chasing a bird and not catching it is the same as figuring out a simple puzzle in my opinion. When he was learning how to walk, you did not take him to a busy intersection to learn to wait for a crossing signal. You let him run around in the back yard. I understand your point and it is a good one but you need to remember right now you are just working on the basics. Delmar always said " you should always give your pup an opportunity to learn". I don't think he ment that we train them in everything, just give them the exposier and allow them to figure it out on their own.

[Wagonmaster]

Bossman, your name would not happen to be Gary would it? I almost choked when I read your post. One of the truly great GSP's of the past was Ammertals Boss Ranger, out of Uodibar's Bossman. "Ranger" was amateur trained and competed. He won the NFC and pretty much every other GSP trial of prominence that existed at the time. During a trip to the American Field a year or so ago, I ran across an old account of Gary and Ranger hopping a plane out to the East Coast to win, I believe, both the Pheasant Championship and the Region 2, the Region 2 being one of the oldest and at the time one of the most competitive GSP hour championships. Circa 1979-1980. That wouldn't happen to be you would it?

Some do get time in the cab or the trailer with a pro. Usually it is the dogs that have earned it though, they don't start out riding up there.

[snips]

I think there are alot of analogys between kids and dogs (or pups) that are the same.

[jrschultz]

My point with the children analogy was simply to emphasize that you don't want your dog to learn bad habits that you have to un-learn later in life. As such, you don't teach your kids to run into traffic - ever. You teach them to stop and wait for the walking signal - always. My personal feelings on the matter is that if at every step of the training and development process, you build positively on what was learned before and you don't have to unlearn negative traits, then you prevent a whole world of hurt later in life. Some of what I read in the Delmar Smith book seems like you would have to later want the dog to do something completely opposite of what you allowed him to do before when he was a puppy. This thinking just doesn't make sense to me.

[bossman]

John...No, I would not be Gary. Based on your post, I wish I would have had a chance to know him and had the opportunity to see Ranger in action. Sounds a little like Rick Smith when he'd get on a plane with Pacolet Cheyenne Sam to get to Championships too far way from each other to drive. From 1977 -1993 I was involved with the American Brittany Club, trialing and occasionally breeding (1984 National All Age Champion). Got involved with GSP's only five years ago. Appreciate your comment about "in the cab" and agree. You obviously have a great looking dog!..Hope to have a chance to see him at Eureka. I personally think some are making this Delmar thing way to complicated. Of course don't let your dog run into traffic..don't let him eat the furniture either.. In my opinion, all Delmar is saying is don't put too much pressure on the pup. It's a little like developing range. I would rather have a big running dog that I might want to shorten up then a closer working dog that I need to stretch out..The pup needs to have fun and gain confidence. Hope some of this made some sense.

[jrschultz]

This was one of the posted reviews for this book on Amazon: "The book contains almost 200 pages. It could have been written in about 20. Too much anecdotal good 'ol boy yippie ai yay speak. For the money, there are much better books available. I am returning it for a refund." I find the review a bit harsh but also fairly hilarious.... hehheheh.....

[Rick Hall]

That fellow must have been looking for Paul Long's "Training Pointing Dogs": more training packed into a little $9.95 paperback than most three other training volumes, if memory serves.

[jrschultz]

That fellow must have been looking for Paul Long's "Training Pointing Dogs": more training packed into a little $9.95 paperback than most three other training volumes, if memory serves.

Would you recommend this book for novices like myself?

[Rick Hall]

I'd strongly recommend Evan's "Troubles With Bird Dogs" above all others for first time pointing dog trainers, as it's geared toward their situation, easy reading and quite thorough. But I would also highly recommend Long's little book as sort of a troubleshooting reference. Those, plus Jim Marti's "Burnt Creek Method," have been the only ones out of a stack-and-a-half of pointing dogs books I regularly revisited after initial reading.

[jrschultz]

I searched those books and both of them are very rare, showing up on Amazon, but from select sellers and for several hundred dollars a copy. They must now be out of print?

I'd strongly recommend Evan's "Troubles With Bird Dogs" above all others for first time pointing dog trainers, as it's geared toward their situation, easy reading and quite thorough. But I would also highly recommend Long's little book as sort of a troubleshooting reference. Those, plus Jim Marti's "Burnt Creek Method," have been the only ones out of a stack-and-a-half of pointing dogs books I regularly revisited after initial reading.

[Rick Hall]

Sounds like that's the case. Sorry.

[Rick Hall]

I searched those books and both of them are very rare, showing up on Amazon, but from select sellers and for several hundred dollars a copy.

Took a moment to Google Evan's and Long's books and found "Troubles With Bird Dogs" used but shipped for under $50 here: http://www.bestwebbuys.com/Troubles_wit ... c=b-search

and "Training Pointing Dogs" new for $4 plus shipping at Amazon.

[578SLE]

I would strongly not suggest Paul Long's book if you are looking for "How to train" instruction manual. I am sure Paul Long is a fine trainer, and the book has some valuable information but it is dated and there are better ways for an amateur to learn "how" to train. Rather, I would suggest that you spend your money on 1 of 2 DVDs. The DVDs provide more "nuts and bolts" information and they also allow you to see exactly "how" a training session is set up and executed. The two I have run across and would suggest are Maurice Lindley's/Brad Higgins DVD available for $35 at higginsgundogs.com or Perfect Start/Perfect Finish $65 for each volume (of which, there are two). The Lindley/Higgins DVD is the only one that I have seen that specifically talks about and "trains the trainer" to use proper "timing". IMHO, what separates the "Pro-trainer" from the beginning amateur is tricks in your bag, all the gadgets/birds, experience, timing, and the ability to read the dog. You can buy the gadgets/birds, learn the tricks by reading and talking to people, but there is no simple way to gain the experience, learn the timing, or acquire the ability to read the dog except by working dogs. But DVDs help point things out allow you to see them.

[Scott]

Good point,

Tequila's Joker used to come riding into camp (shotgun) whith Ed Tilson. Heck, TJ would come to the cocktail parties and "work the crowd" for hors d' ouevres on Saturday night.

I remember this well. The first trial I met Ed and Tequila Joker was in Sonoita. I was sitting in a lawn chair with a plate of goodies. Next thing I knew I had a couple of new friends. The last time I saw Tequila Joker was about a week before he passed in the white mountains. Ed was giving him a bath out there in the white mountains. That dog loved Ed as much as loved him.

[roaniecowpony]

I stumbled on this old thread about Delmar Smith when searching for the Tarrant book. This thread was an enlightening read with some great perspectives and sharing of first-person experiences with the man and I think the thread is worth the re-read for you longtime forum members.

Regarding the book, I agree with whoever stated a book is frozen in time. I have to believe any person that achieves greatness in any pursuit is not the kind to be stagnant in their own learning and improving. Hickox was mentioned in this thread and it prompted my recollection of why he impressed me. It was his adopting a new method from the first time I attended his class to the next time I attended one. The guy seems like a sponge. He came across to me like he was a lifelong student of his trade. That made me feel the guy had something I wanted to learn from him. I'm guessing Delmar Smith has that trait as well.

The last post by Scott which mentioned Sonoita struck a note with me as I sit her in Sierra Vista, having hunted the Sonoita area a couple times this week.

[AZ Brittany Guy]

I stumbled on this old thread about Delmar Smith when searching for the Tarrant book. This thread was an enlightening read with some great perspectives and sharing of first-person experiences with the man and I think the thread is worth the re-read for you longtime forum members.

Regarding the book, I agree with whoever stated a book is frozen in time. I have to believe any person that achieves greatness in any pursuit is not the kind to be stagnant in their own learning and improving. Hickox was mentioned in this thread and it prompted my recollection of why he impressed me. It was his adopting a new method from the first time I attended his class to the next time I attended one. The guy seems like a sponge. He came across to me like he was a lifelong student of his trade. That made me feel the guy had something I wanted to learn from him. I'm guessing Delmar Smith has that trait as well.

The last post by Scott which mentioned Sonoita struck a note with me as I sit her in Sierra Vista, having hunted the Sonoita area a couple times this week.

Most of the great bird dog trainer's methods are always evolving. I remember Rick Smith mentioning that he attends Ronnie's seminars once a year to "audit the class". He added to his comment "If Tiger Woods has a swing coach, I think its ok for me to have one".

How has the Mearns hunting been down there? The previous 3 weeks were back to back field trials on the Empire Ranch. I had two dogs in the AGD stakes and didn't have a chance to do any hunting.

[DonF]

He wasn't dead when this was taken about a month ago!!

D*mn, that guy with Delmar. Trying to remember his name, Greg Kotch I think. The absolutely best video I ever watched was one by him on using the shock collar. Loaned it to someone and can't remember who and never got it back!

Never saw this thread before. Great thread. One thing about Delmars method is that it will still work today and work well. If you can't afford a shock collar or remote traps and have nothing of normal training tools, use his method and you still end up with a good dog. I might add that the pinch collar is not even necessary, a choker will do nicely. I have changed a lot of things in delmars book to suit myself but I think most people that have read his book would still recognize his influence. Bill did a masterpiece with that book in my opinion, kept it from being boring or drad.

[AZ Brittany Guy]

He wasn't dead when this was taken about a month ago!!

D*mn, that guy with Delmar. Trying to remember his name, Greg Kotch I think. The absolutely best video I ever watched was one by him on using the shock collar. Loaned it to someone and can't remember who and never got it back!

Never saw this thread before. Great thread. One thing about Delmars method is that it will still work today and work well. If you can't afford a shock collar or remote traps and have nothing of normal training tools, use his method and you still end up with a good dog. I might add that the pinch collar is not even necessary, a choker will do nicely. I have changed a lot of things in delmars book to suit myself but I think most people that have read his book would still recognize his influence. Bill did a masterpiece with that book in my opinion, kept it from being boring or drad.

Don, I think that's actually a picture of Kenny with Delmar. Kenny was at Big Cabin finishing his "Huntsmith" training certification with Ronnie when the picture was taken.

[ultracarry]

If I am not hunting over a dog at a year to a year and a half they go down the road. They do not have to be perfect by any means but attempting to point birds and learning their scent cone and how close they can get to point birds without bumping them, pointing deads, retrieving at least half of the birds, finding downed birds, learning to relocate on their own, knowing the come command, being accustomed to the e collar, learning their range and how far out I allow them to be, being accustomed to gunfire, learning that they don't have to chase missed birds to the next state, these are all things I expect of a young dog. They do not have to be steady to wing and shot but at least hold the point till I get there and then I personally allow my dogs to flush, retrieving every time, slowing down and learning not to overrun their noses these are things we usually work on in the spring and summer after their first year as well as their second hunting season. I also shoot birds that flushed wild over my dogs and have never seen them attempt to flush rather than point the next birds either. I also use the instinctive method so all these are things I expect a young dog to pick up on their own rather than being shown through long rigorous training schedules. It works for me, it may not work for you. I do not trial so this probably would not work for a trial dog but it works well for me on wild bird dogs.

I did the same with my dog ... Then my new male I broke out prior to a year , hunted him on valley quail... By no means is he a "field trial prospect" he is a field trial dog* (you can even verify placements if you would like "kimber tactical". Some people just get stuck in their ways and think if it's not done their way then it can't and will not be done. If I can't get a dog to stand birds at 6-8 months I'm not working them right. If they don't like it I will find them a nastra or hunting home.

[RayGubernat]

Guys -

I know this thread has gone pretty far afield, but I have to put forward a couple of things for consideration.

First and foremost, the way you go about training a bird dog HAS to depend, to some degree, on the temperament of the dog.

Second, and almost as important, they way you go about training a dog HAS to depend on the facilities, equipment and time at the trainer's disposal and most especially, depends on the availability(or lack thereof) of wild birds and training grounds.

Every method or program out there that depends on wild birds and expanses of training grounds needs to be examined, evaluated and probably modified, if there are no wild birds or open areas available to the trainer.

As an example, it is wonderful to read about Criswell's "Mexico Method", for example, but unless I can find someplace nearby where I can run a dog for three hours in one direction (and never cross a road) that has an endless supply of wild quail, the "Mexico Method" is not something I will be able to use without significant modification.

This is not to say that one cannot garner insights from this and other methods. This is not to say that one cannot adapt portions of those methods and incorporate them into a training program. No two situations are identical so adaptation, based on individual circumstance is usually a good call.

The Delmar Smith Method, along with Paul Long's method and Jim Marti's Burnt Creek Method all had something to consider for me. Still do. Larry Mueller's Speed Training Your Bird Dog also provided some very useful insights for me. Derry Argue's book Pointers and Setters contained some very useful ideas and training methods. They are all dated, sure, but that does not mean they no longer have value. Far from it.

More recently, Training with Mo has given me additional insights and Mark Payton's book, Favorite Methods and also his DVD on force fetching has described several training methods in detail that I have never seen practiced, both serving to put more training tools into my toolbox.

RayG

Oops! Forgot one... Hunt Close by Jerome Robinson. Lots of good stuff for the birdhunter.

[Sharon]

Still waiting on your book Ray. Time is passing.

[RayGubernat]

Still waiting on your book Ray. Time is passing.

Sharon -

When I finally figure out what I am doing...maybe then. I still have a lot to learn.

They keep moving the darn goalposts back, the dogs keep getting smarter and I keep getting older, slower and creakier.

RayG

[Phantomfly]

I have used Delmar's techniques on a bunch of Brittanys and parts of his methods on some rescues that I have taught to hunt. I believe that the year of "puppy time" depends on the dog and how soft it is or receptive to training. Know your dog. Some fold with a little pressure and some can take a lot but all will fold if you cross the line and it makes it hard to start over. Also remember that Delmar was writing for the non-professional or backyard trainer and had to build in a safety buffer for lack of expertise. Great guy and great book !

[Neil]

Reading through my old posts makes me realize how much I have evolved, or I am unhinged. You decide.

But I have been consistent in believing the Smith system works.

[jfwhit]

Ronnie trained my dog last year and took him to Montana for wild birds last month. Their method works. He did well last season. Well behaved in the field. Hunted hard and focused. Steady to shot. It was nice to enjoy hunting without constantly correcting the dog. I'm a believer in their system.

[Trekmoor]

About 30 years ago I read Delmar's book .....in instalments ! I was only allowed to read it in the house of the man he had gifted it to. That man was an "A" Panel retriever judge and a Scot who had, I think, stayed for while with Delmar in America. He had been so impressed with Delmar that he would not allow the book to be taken from his house.

He felt that I might enjoy the book and I certainly did. The main thing I got out of it was the "Happy Timing." I have done that ever since with pretty good results. Only recently has this began to backfire on me , I am now too old and too slow to keep up with the dogs that doing this with creates ! I would do the same all over again though if I was younger and I wish I had met Delmar in person.

Bill T.

[polmaise]

Old folk are creative.
They often use experience.
Smart one use experience with creativity ,that old folk can handle . It's curiously nice that I'm old according to the young ones and young to the old ones .
The dogs however are just the same.

[gundogguy]

About 30 years ago I read Delmar's book .....in instalments ! I was only allowed to read it in the house of the man he had gifted it to. That man was an "A" Panel retriever judge and a Scot who had, I think, stayed for while with Delmar in America. He had been so impressed with Delmar that he would not allow the book to be taken from his house.

He felt that I might enjoy the book and I certainly did. The main thing I got out of it was the "Happy Timing." I have done that ever since with pretty good results. Only recently has this began to backfire on me , I am now too old and too slow to keep up with the dogs that doing this with creates ! I would do the same all over again though if I was younger and I wish I had met Delmar in person.

Bill T.

Having met Mr Smith at a NAGA convention in San Antoine Texas, and being able to spend some time visiting at lunch was interested in the fact that he made a number of trips to the UK.
He had spent some in Wales at Presaddfed Anglesey, with a noted Springer spaniel man named Talbot Radcliff owner of the Saighton Kennel. Talbot being a friend of mine often said about Delmar he was in love with Dogs and Horses and could never get enough information about either. I could only agree for the both of them were fine gentlemen and of a like mind when it came to sporting dogs regardless of breed. Both also published very usable manuscripts for the dog training community.

[polmaise]

Any ones methods or techniques are right when they work.
It's easy to be in the company of dog folk when they are easily comfortable with dogs .

[CowboyBirdDogs]

As someone who just bought a Brittany pup from Ronnie Smith about 2 months ago, and plan on attending his foundation seminar in April. I found this thread fascinating. Great read. I am first time, newbie trainer. I have a 8 yr old shorthair that I was very blessed was pretty much a natural on everything, backing, holding point, retrieving. I really wish she was whoa trained though but I knew nothing about training when I got her at 18 and just wanted to hunt. The Brittany pup will be very, very different. Can't wait to start learning and training a Smith pup, with the smith's and their methods.

[ezzy333]

It would take you about a week to train your GSP if that is what you want.

[CowboyBirdDogs]

It would take you about a week to train your GSP if that is what you want.

You think I could whoa train an 8 year old dog?

[Neil]

Ezzy is right. On a whim once, I took a 7 year old couch potato pet that had never been off leash except in a dog park and had him steady to wing and shot in 2 months. They are never too old to learn!