To Neuter or Not?

Post Reply
MadMax
Rank: Just A Pup
Posts: 20
Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2009 12:01 pm
Location: brownsville, tx

To Neuter or Not?

Post by MadMax » Wed Nov 04, 2009 7:14 pm

I have a 10 mo. old english cocker he is doing great on his training. He retrieves excellent. I have two female dogs a 6 mo old lab and a 1 year old min. schnauzer. The schnauzer just went into heat and my spaniel is going crazy I plan to spay both female dogs, but I am undecided if I should neuter my dog. I do not want him to lose his drive. I've heard that some dogs lose some of their drive after being neutered please provide some much needed advise. Thanks in advance :roll:

User avatar
dugger13
Rank: Champion
Posts: 344
Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2007 6:39 am
Location: northern wisconsin

Re: To Neuter or Not?

Post by dugger13 » Thu Nov 05, 2009 8:08 am

All of the speculation on health topics alone was enough for me not to neuter my male, or at least put it off till he is 2-3 years old.

User avatar
naperdog
Rank: Senior Hunter
Posts: 145
Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2008 5:35 pm

Re: To Neuter or Not?

Post by naperdog » Thu Nov 05, 2009 11:09 am

i am with dugger. I don't have any hard facts to provide, but there is enough debate our there that it seemed the least risky route is to wait a couple of years. My pup turns 2 shortly after the last of the preserves close up around here and i will be neutering him then.

Steve007
Rank: 4X Champion
Posts: 678
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2007 12:14 pm
Location: St. Louis, MO

Re: To Neuter or Not?

Post by Steve007 » Fri Nov 06, 2009 3:18 pm

If you plan to spay your bitches (and you should), there is no reason whatsoever to de-groin your English Cocker. Men, horses or dogs, no testosterone WILL affect character. Your vet will urge you to do so, citing spurious claims as reason. Dog-hating organizations like animal rights groups also promote this mindless idea. And then there are the feminists.. :wink:

But really..is this the kind of thing a real guy does to his buddy?

Here are some links;there are others.

http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTerm ... InDogs.pdf

http://www.caninesports.com/SpayNeuter.html

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24597888

User avatar
ezzy333
GDF Junkie
Posts: 16639
Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2004 3:14 pm
Location: Dixon IL

Re: To Neuter or Not?

Post by ezzy333 » Fri Nov 06, 2009 4:39 pm

Steve007 wrote:If you plan to spay your bitches (and you should), there is no reason whatsoever to de-groin your English Cocker. Men, horses or dogs, no testosterone WILL affect character. Your vet will urge you to do so, citing spurious claims as reason. The real reason is that it is a big money-maker for the profession, though I don't doubt that he has honestly convinced himself that his claims are true. Dog-hating organizations like animal rights groups also promote this mindless idea. And then there are the feminists.. :wink:

But really..is this the kind of thing a real guy does to his buddy?

Here are some links;there are others.

http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTerm ... InDogs.pdf

http://www.caninesports.com/SpayNeuter.html

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24597888
So if I understand this right you think spaying a female which is much more invasive is better than neutering a mature male. Wonder how that works? I would think the vets would get richer from spaying dogs than neutering which kind of shoots that ldea down.

Men, horses or dogs, no testosterone WILL affect character
How many of each did you include in your study and what were the results?

There are very good reasons to neuter or spay and there are reasons not to but advocating only one sex because it changes the character is a little beyond me at this point.

Ezzy
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=144
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=207

It's not how many breaths you have taken but how many times it has been taken away!

Has anyone noticed common sense isn't very common anymore.

MadMax
Rank: Just A Pup
Posts: 20
Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2009 12:01 pm
Location: brownsville, tx

Re: To Neuter or Not?

Post by MadMax » Fri Nov 06, 2009 4:51 pm

Thanks for the info guys. I will be spaying the bitches and leaving my dog just the way he is. Spaying the bitches will help by not getting pregnant from my dog, or any other, and has no effect on their character. On the other hand if I neuter my dog his drive will probably decrease alot and he is just 10 months old. When he gets older he will naturally calm down a bit and neutering him will not stop him from trying to hump the bitches when in heat. All your replies are greatly appreciated.

User avatar
R-Middleton
GDF Premier Member!
Posts: 55
Joined: Sun Jun 01, 2008 9:11 pm
Location: Midvale Idaho

Re: To Neuter or Not?

Post by R-Middleton » Sat Nov 07, 2009 9:19 am

I neuter all my males, and advise my clients to do the same, unless it is a very well breed dog and may want to keep as a stud dog. I see no disadvantage is the neutered male, they are much nicer dogs to be around, and tend to have their mind on hunting more that males that have girls on their mind all the time.

Ray Middleton

Morgan1330
Rank: Just A Pup
Posts: 6
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2009 3:39 pm

Re: To Neuter or Not?

Post by Morgan1330 » Sat Nov 07, 2009 10:42 pm

MadMax, know that neutering your male with have absolutely no adverse affect on hunting performance or drive. By the way, how do you explain all of the great female hunting dogs out there? Some of the best hunting dogs I've seen were females - lacking testicles, testosterone and all. Read the article in the newest (or last quarters, can't remember which) Pheasants Forever. There are some arguments about neutering too early and muskuloskeletal development, but there is no correlation between it and hunting drive. The bottom line is if it'll make your life easier, do it...he's plenty old enough to not worry about any side effects.

Bryce
Rank: Junior Hunter
Posts: 55
Joined: Thu Jun 29, 2006 9:18 pm
Location: New Orleans, LA

Re: To Neuter or Not?

Post by Bryce » Wed Nov 18, 2009 3:29 pm

It is not that spaying/nuetering has any adverse affect on a dog bred-in hunting ability. What does happen is the dog matabolism slows down, causing them to gain weight much easier. A fat dog does not hunt as well as an "in shape" dog and that is where that idea comes from. The hormones of an intact dog keeps its metabolism moving pretty well as a general rule and it is therefore easier for an intact dog to stay in better shape. Keeping a spayed/nuetered dog in good shape simply takes a little more conditioning and careful monitoring of food intake.

Where I draw a a problem with spaying and nuetering is how the vets and animal shelters advocate it. People are told over and over again by various sources that they must get their dog fixed. That the dog behaves better if it is spayed/nuetered or that it helps with temperment problems. This is where there is false advertisement and the vets are at fault for allowing it to be put out there and advocating it. Spaying and nuetering is a relatively safe procedure that can be done with very low risk of complication. Dogs that are spayed/nuetered before they are fully mature (around 1.5-3 years of age depending on breeding/sex) are unable to grow and mature at the proper rate. Hormones affecting growth are directly related to sex hormones given off by the reproductive hormones. When puppies are growing, they are giving off growth hormone and in order to stop growing they begin giving off a hormone that stops growth. If they are fixed at a time when they are giving off growth hormone, they tend to over grow. Ever see overly tall dogs, dogs that never filled out, males with bitchy heads, bitches with male heads? Or dogs that are just generally disproportionate? A lot of times this happens because the dog was fixed before it was finished maturing.

Spaying/nuetering does not lessen male aggression, it does not stop marking behavior, it does not stop a dog from getting distracted by a bitch in season. It simply stops the dog from being able to procreate. My recommendation is that you wait to fix your dog until the animal is fully matured. Usually, for males that is a little after 2 years of age. For females that varies and depends a lot on when they went into their first heat cycle and the lines they come from.

There is also the physcological problems that go along with keeping a non-breeding animal intact. Males who are intact have the hormone driven need to breed. Not allowing them to fulfill this can really affect the dogs ability to focus. Females allowed to go through heat cycles repeatedly without producing a litter often have false pregnancies where they are driven mentally nuts trying to take care of a stuffed animal or something similar.

Fixing a female is just as devastating to their development as fixing a male. Let your dogs mature before you begin to alter them and only keep dogs worth breeding intact throughout their lives. There is no need to risk producing unwanted litters just because you thought it was mean to cut your "ole' buddy's" nuts off.

User avatar
gonehuntin'
GDF Junkie
Posts: 4612
Joined: Tue Dec 12, 2006 5:38 pm
Location: NE WI.

Re: To Neuter or Not?

Post by gonehuntin' » Wed Nov 18, 2009 4:20 pm

Neutering has NO effect on the drive of a male dog. Neither does is lessen his aggression. There is no reason to not neuter a male dog.
LIFE WITHOUT BIRD DOGS AND FLY RODS REALLY ISN'T LIFE AT ALL.

Steve007
Rank: 4X Champion
Posts: 678
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2007 12:14 pm
Location: St. Louis, MO

Re: To Neuter or Not?

Post by Steve007 » Wed Nov 18, 2009 10:07 pm

Bryce wrote:only keep dogs worth breeding intact throughout their lives. There is no need to risk producing unwanted litters just because you thought it was mean to cut your "ole' buddy's" nuts off.

It would hard to think of a more flawed argument than this, thouigh I'll grant you it's promoted constantly by those who don't understand responsible dog ownership.You figure the dog is going to steal the car keys and go hustle bitches on the corner? Make a big break and run wild in the streets where there are bitches ovulating all the time? The owner controls the dog. You must have missed it.

As for non-breeding interfering with concentration (other than for teenage boys), an overwhelming percentage of top competition dogs from field trial champions to genuine police, war and schutzhund dogs to OTCHs to competition herding dogs are entire males. How remarkable that they overcame the handicap!

vzkennels

Re: To Neuter or Not?

Post by vzkennels » Wed Nov 18, 2009 10:25 pm

If you read the studies on neutering & spaying there are just as many cons as pros when it comes to males & almost as many when it comes to females. The pros for spaying in females just slightly out weighs the cons.IMO the neutering & spaying is more for the benefit of the owners then the dogs but regardless if you choose to do either at least wait untill the dogs are fully mature!!

slistoe
GDF Junkie
Posts: 3616
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2007 7:23 pm

Re: To Neuter or Not?

Post by slistoe » Thu Nov 19, 2009 1:15 am

Steve007 wrote: As for non-breeding interfering with concentration (other than for teenage boys), an overwhelming percentage of top competition dogs from field trial champions to genuine police, war and schutzhund dogs to OTCHs to competition herding dogs are entire males. How remarkable that they overcame the handicap!
Which is why when I showed up at the final series of a Retriever trial with my in season bitch to drop off with a fellow for breeding they made (asked) me to park at the farthest point possible and to remain far downwind of the "line".
If you believe it has no effect you are only kidding yourself. And yes, it is a testament to the trainers of most performance dogs that they are able to keep their concentration in the face of any and all distractions.

User avatar
ezzy333
GDF Junkie
Posts: 16639
Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2004 3:14 pm
Location: Dixon IL

Re: To Neuter or Not?

Post by ezzy333 » Thu Nov 19, 2009 7:44 am

slistoe wrote:
Steve007 wrote: As for non-breeding interfering with concentration (other than for teenage boys), an overwhelming percentage of top competition dogs from field trial champions to genuine police, war and schutzhund dogs to OTCHs to competition herding dogs are entire males. How remarkable that they overcame the handicap!
Which is why when I showed up at the final series of a Retriever trial with my in season bitch to drop off with a fellow for breeding they made (asked) me to park at the farthest point possible and to remain far downwind of the "line".
If you believe it has no effect you are only kidding yourself. And yes, it is a testament to the trainers of most performance dogs that they are able to keep their concentration in the face of any and all distractions.
I think you have misread that quote. All he is refuting is that intact males that are never bred have a problem concentrating and I have to agree. Leaving a dog intact is not a problem whether it is bred or not unless there is a female in season around and then it is a problem for the intact or neutered male.

JMO
Ezzy
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=144
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=207

It's not how many breaths you have taken but how many times it has been taken away!

Has anyone noticed common sense isn't very common anymore.

slistoe
GDF Junkie
Posts: 3616
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2007 7:23 pm

Re: To Neuter or Not?

Post by slistoe » Thu Nov 19, 2009 8:34 am

Huh? Did you just repeat my statement? Yeah, you did. Intact males will be affected if there is any indication of a female in season somewhere around. Hence the significant concern amongst the finalists in the Retriever Trial.

User avatar
3Britts
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 1055
Joined: Sat Jan 26, 2008 10:22 am
Location: Northern Utah

Re: To Neuter or Not?

Post by 3Britts » Thu Nov 19, 2009 11:49 am

Frankly, I don't really care what the studies say. My experience tells me not to spay or neuter until a dog has matured.
I have seen too many dogs that came from good hunting lines that underpreform in the field who were spayed or neutered too early. I have also talked to some of the best trainers around who have seen this as well. IMO you should wait until a dog has fully grown before going this route.
JMO

Steve007
Rank: 4X Champion
Posts: 678
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2007 12:14 pm
Location: St. Louis, MO

Re: To Neuter or Not?

Post by Steve007 » Thu Nov 19, 2009 12:18 pm

slistoe wrote:Huh? Did you just repeat my statement? Yeah, you did. Intact males will be affected if there is any indication of a female in season somewhere around.
That was not the original statement by bryce, and it was that to which I quite correctly responded, as ezzy properly notes. Your observation is beside the point of the original statement and response.

Bryce
Rank: Junior Hunter
Posts: 55
Joined: Thu Jun 29, 2006 9:18 pm
Location: New Orleans, LA

Re: To Neuter or Not?

Post by Bryce » Sun Nov 29, 2009 10:06 pm

Steve007-

My original statement was that male dogs who are intact can have a tougher time concentrating on a given task because they are driven to breed by their hormones. To put it word for word as I said it: "There is also the physcological problems that go along with keeping a non-breeding animal intact. Males who are intact have the hormone driven need to breed. Not allowing them to fulfill this can really affect the dogs ability to focus."

To what extent that is can greatly vary from dog to dog. It has a lot to do with testosterone levels among other things, such as how long it has been since they were last bred. I have a male right now that lives in the house with my two females. One is spayed and one is a 10 month old puppy who has not yet gone into heat. The neighbors a few doors down have a female dog that went into heat back in September. Tank, my male, was constantly courting my 10 month old puppy. She was not in heat and still has not gone into heat, but that did not stop Tank from trying. Every chance he got, he was on her. Now the bitch a few doors down goes into heat every 4 months and Tank only takes a serious notice of it (such as the situation described above) if it has been more than 6 months or so since he was last bred.

I am not saying that intact male dogs cannot think and are brainless idiots and neither do I think teenage young men are (I started trialing and showing Britts when I was 13 and didn't appreciate the people who looked down their nose at me when I was younger because of my age). But anyone with an intact male dog can tell you how tough it can be to work with them when a bitch in heat is around, or for that matter, any bitch -in heat or not. But that can happen for neutered dogs also, it's just a little less likely to have as much of a problem with them. I never said that male dogs were incapable of performing at an high level of concentration while intact, I simply stated that intact males can have a problem focusing -I guess I assumed that most people would understand that to mean in regards to bitches in season since I did state earlier in the same paragraph that "male dogs have a hormone driven need to breed". I never verified when or in what situations they might have a tough time focusing in my post, whether it be at random or only when a bitch in season is around. Guess I should have, I apologize. We also need to remember that animal behavior is a highly debatable topic and two animals of the same breed and species can act completely different in the same situation. Most information you'll find on animal behavior is a generalization and nothing more...since we are getting so nit-picky about what is said, I thought I might verify that.

This may just be me, but you make it sound like I am pro-spay/neuter... If you'd read, my reply was in response to a post asking what to do with intact male and female dogs in the same household that the owners are not interested in breeding and obviously not wanting to put up with heat cycles and an intact male dog in the house every 6 months or so. I discourage spay/neutering until full maturity, but see absolutely no problem with it after that, should the owners choose. If you read my post, I give a number of reasons for not spaying/neutering the dog. I even refute the common arguments for spaying/neutering a dog given by most vets.

Bryce Novotny

Post Reply