I want good bird dogs but I want good house dogs too.
-
joeldavid
I want good bird dogs but I want good house dogs too.
I have been letting my pups be just that and making sure that every thing is fun for them. I havn't put any pressure on them in training and really havn't worked on anything other than "kennel" and "come" both of witch they are doing pretty reliably. The dogs are both quite confident and I love their dispositions so I'll probably start a little more formal training soon. I've watched videos, read alot, and talked to alot of people about training and there are many opinions. One that has popped up once or twice is that teaching "sit" before a dog is finished on birds can be bad. These are the first dogs that I will have trained and I want them to be great. That said, my wife who is very suportive of my hunting, fishing, dogs, guns, and 4x4 habit would really like to be able to make the pups sit. How bad can teaching "sit " set them back?
-
rschuster54303`
- Rank: Senior Hunter
- Posts: 171
- Joined: Thu Oct 06, 2005 1:23 pm
- Location: Green Bay, WI
If you are going to Break these dogs (steady to wing and shot) don't teach sit until they are broke... take this from some one who has had to dead with sitting dogs when pressure is applied.
If you have no plans to finish these dogs and they will just be hunting dogs and family pets then by all means feel free to teach it. It is just once it is taught it is the dogs tendency to use it when pressure is applied in training, which is undesirable when breaking.
I do know what you mean though and the reason I replied is simply one of the dogs I am currently breaking was taught to sit by my wife against my wishes :shock: ...lets just say it would of been much easier if the dog had never learned the habbit.
Regards,
Rob
If you have no plans to finish these dogs and they will just be hunting dogs and family pets then by all means feel free to teach it. It is just once it is taught it is the dogs tendency to use it when pressure is applied in training, which is undesirable when breaking.
I do know what you mean though and the reason I replied is simply one of the dogs I am currently breaking was taught to sit by my wife against my wishes :shock: ...lets just say it would of been much easier if the dog had never learned the habbit.
Regards,
Rob
If it isn't fun, it isn't worth doing.
Schuster's All Max'd Out
Schuster's Mama's Girl
Schuster's OJ Cuttem Up
Schuster's All Max'd Out
Schuster's Mama's Girl
Schuster's OJ Cuttem Up
-
Wagonmaster
- GDF Junkie
- Posts: 3372
- Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2005 10:22 am
- Location: Minneapolis, MN
if you teach a pointing dog to sit before you have broken it steady to wing and shot, you are taking a gamble. with many dogs it will make no difference. but with some dogs it will become a problem.
what happens is that in the course of breaking the dog you will put some pressure on it not to break point when it wants to, and sometimes a dog taught to sit will react to the pressure by sitting on point. by pressure i am not talking about anything heavy handed. likely scenario is that you have the dog on a check cord, it tries to break point, you restrain it, pull back on the cord, and it sits.
you can usually get around the sitting problem by going back a few steps in your training, but it takes time, and first time trainers especially, may not know how to deal with it.
we teach pointing dogs to whoa, which means stand and stay, rather than teaching them to sit and stay. works just as well as sit as a method of controlling the dog around the house.
we usually start the serious part of breaking a dog around a year, year and a half. we want to make sure they have had plenty of bird exposure, are pointing and holding for awhile anyway. the process takes varying lengths of time depending on how much time you have to train and the dog's acceptance of the training. to really get one polished, though, you may have to work at it for a couple of years on and off. really polished meaning fully broke, backing on its own, stopping to flush, doing all this one its own without commands or assistance from you when it is way out on a limb, or when it gets in a spot full of birds and they start coming out from everywhere.
what happens is that in the course of breaking the dog you will put some pressure on it not to break point when it wants to, and sometimes a dog taught to sit will react to the pressure by sitting on point. by pressure i am not talking about anything heavy handed. likely scenario is that you have the dog on a check cord, it tries to break point, you restrain it, pull back on the cord, and it sits.
you can usually get around the sitting problem by going back a few steps in your training, but it takes time, and first time trainers especially, may not know how to deal with it.
we teach pointing dogs to whoa, which means stand and stay, rather than teaching them to sit and stay. works just as well as sit as a method of controlling the dog around the house.
we usually start the serious part of breaking a dog around a year, year and a half. we want to make sure they have had plenty of bird exposure, are pointing and holding for awhile anyway. the process takes varying lengths of time depending on how much time you have to train and the dog's acceptance of the training. to really get one polished, though, you may have to work at it for a couple of years on and off. really polished meaning fully broke, backing on its own, stopping to flush, doing all this one its own without commands or assistance from you when it is way out on a limb, or when it gets in a spot full of birds and they start coming out from everywhere.
Here’s just another opinion...
I think teaching your dog to sit will be the least of your setbacks. Birds that don't fly, your inconsistency in training, and other mishaps are more of a set back. Bell was taught sit along with TONS of other commands including closing a door behind herself, and none of that has ever affected her field work.
I’m no pro, but you CAN have a finished dog that is a house dog. In fact, the majority of non-finished dogs I see are hard core kennel dogs. More of the dogs I see that are completely finished double as house dogs and companions.
Grant
I think teaching your dog to sit will be the least of your setbacks. Birds that don't fly, your inconsistency in training, and other mishaps are more of a set back. Bell was taught sit along with TONS of other commands including closing a door behind herself, and none of that has ever affected her field work.
I’m no pro, but you CAN have a finished dog that is a house dog. In fact, the majority of non-finished dogs I see are hard core kennel dogs. More of the dogs I see that are completely finished double as house dogs and companions.
Grant
I guess the real feedback would come from someone who trains various dogs for a living. They could see the result over time... I've heard from a pro that dogs around kids that constantly tug on the dog etc. can cause training issues....
I wonder if any command that is over used is the main issue here? Maybe dogs that know sit, and are asked to sit a lot each day are more prone to sit under pressure? I've heard of dogs that have been heeled to death, then the dog never wanted to leave the owners side. Same thing with backing, it seems some dogs just want to run around backing vs. hunting. Have they had too much pressure to back? Just some thoughts that come to mind...
I wonder if any command that is over used is the main issue here? Maybe dogs that know sit, and are asked to sit a lot each day are more prone to sit under pressure? I've heard of dogs that have been heeled to death, then the dog never wanted to leave the owners side. Same thing with backing, it seems some dogs just want to run around backing vs. hunting. Have they had too much pressure to back? Just some thoughts that come to mind...
-
Wagonmaster
- GDF Junkie
- Posts: 3372
- Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2005 10:22 am
- Location: Minneapolis, MN
it has more to do with how hard headed the dog is. soft dogs are prone to sit, even if they have had little training to sit. it is kind of an odds game. train to sit and eight or nine times out of ten you will not have a problem when you break the dog. one or two out of ten times you will have a problem. so why teach sit anyway. teach whoa (stand and stay).
our current female is a house dog. she was taught sit just enough in a puppy class to cause a problem in whoa breaking. but no one ever pursued the sit training, and no one needs to use the command with her around the house.
constant backing in the field is generally tagging and dependence, not the result of too much backing training. the cure is to run the dog alone alot, but there are some dogs who are just genetically disposed to be taggers.
our current female is a house dog. she was taught sit just enough in a puppy class to cause a problem in whoa breaking. but no one ever pursued the sit training, and no one needs to use the command with her around the house.
constant backing in the field is generally tagging and dependence, not the result of too much backing training. the cure is to run the dog alone alot, but there are some dogs who are just genetically disposed to be taggers.
-
Greg Jennings
- GDF Junkie
- Posts: 5743
- Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2004 11:59 am
- Location: Springboro, OH
I worked with a fellow in Montgomery that did AKC obedience tests with his dog.
Part of that game is heeling and automatic sit on stop.
Every time, and I mean, *every* time the dog felt even the lightest tug on the check cord to tell it to not creep, it would sit.
I felt like we were running the risk of training the dog to sit on point.
We almost *never* got the dog around the issue. It took *months* and several different remedies. Moving the collar to the waist and teaching the dog that a tug there meant to stand still on all 4, was what worked.
My own Vizsla was taught to sit early and I've had very few problems. Nothing that slowed me down.
My GSP pup is now 17 months old and needs to be taught to down around the house to be able to live with him (it's a phase he's going through). I've always taught sit and down together using treats. After two training sessions, the pup now tries sitting and downing every time he sees something that he thinks has even an outside chance of being a treat. Not a problem for me now, but would be a serious problem (OMG, the behavior is *automatic*!) if I was training for the show ring.
I bring this up to make my point that you just have to be careful teaching dogs *anything* and look at the risk/reward tradeoff.
Rgrdz,
Part of that game is heeling and automatic sit on stop.
Every time, and I mean, *every* time the dog felt even the lightest tug on the check cord to tell it to not creep, it would sit.
I felt like we were running the risk of training the dog to sit on point.
We almost *never* got the dog around the issue. It took *months* and several different remedies. Moving the collar to the waist and teaching the dog that a tug there meant to stand still on all 4, was what worked.
My own Vizsla was taught to sit early and I've had very few problems. Nothing that slowed me down.
My GSP pup is now 17 months old and needs to be taught to down around the house to be able to live with him (it's a phase he's going through). I've always taught sit and down together using treats. After two training sessions, the pup now tries sitting and downing every time he sees something that he thinks has even an outside chance of being a treat. Not a problem for me now, but would be a serious problem (OMG, the behavior is *automatic*!) if I was training for the show ring.
I bring this up to make my point that you just have to be careful teaching dogs *anything* and look at the risk/reward tradeoff.
Rgrdz,
FC Snips Spot-On Shooter SH
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=3149
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=3149
-
Greg Jennings
- GDF Junkie
- Posts: 5743
- Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2004 11:59 am
- Location: Springboro, OH
One or both dogs "playing tag". You usually run into it with one dog in a brace wanting to play and interfering with the other dog that wants to hunt.grant wrote:I'm not familiar with tagging... Whats that?
Sometimes, tagging can be aggressive. The aggressive dog runs over the other dog as a means of intimidation.
Best,
FC Snips Spot-On Shooter SH
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=3149
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=3149
-
Wagonmaster
- GDF Junkie
- Posts: 3372
- Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2005 10:22 am
- Location: Minneapolis, MN
what you describe: following another dog around in the field. it is a dependent relationship, where the tagging dog relies on the lead dog to do all the work of deciding where to go and finding birds, and the tagger follows around. sometimes it is a little subtle, in other words, the tagger will appear to be working well and independently in the vicinity of the lead dog, but the diagnosis is pretty clear when the tagger winds up backing all the lead dog's points. the tagger has not learned to find birds, it has learned to find the lead dog.
sometimes people encourage this unwittingly, by thinking that running a pup with a mother or other older dog will teach the pup how to hunt. more often, the pup learns to follow mom around and do what she does. so mom makes the decisions, finds all the birds, pup learns that anywhere mom is there are birds. pup is learning to follow, not learning to hunt.
the preventitive is to work pup on his own on birds starting at an early age. pup then develops an affinity for the birds rather than for following another dog.
since the subject is open, there is another behaviour like tagging, that is one of my bugaboos, called bumping. we are not talking about bumping birds here. bumping is where one dog follows another around and constantly makes physical contact, usually running into the lead dog at the shoulder. what is going on can either be a form of aggression, or just that the following dog has no clue the lead dog is trying to hunt, or what even hunting is. it is out there to play. so it is bumping the lead dog to get the lead dog's attention for some wrestlin, while the lead dog is trying to find birds. we see this a fair amount in untrained dogs with not much field exposure. i mention it because it is not just annoying, it is dangerous. have seen lead dogs do a slow boil, then a fight starts, or the lead dog makes a retrieve and the following dog wants to come in an play, something starts up, a hunter reaches in to quell the disturbance, and gets bit.
sometimes people encourage this unwittingly, by thinking that running a pup with a mother or other older dog will teach the pup how to hunt. more often, the pup learns to follow mom around and do what she does. so mom makes the decisions, finds all the birds, pup learns that anywhere mom is there are birds. pup is learning to follow, not learning to hunt.
the preventitive is to work pup on his own on birds starting at an early age. pup then develops an affinity for the birds rather than for following another dog.
since the subject is open, there is another behaviour like tagging, that is one of my bugaboos, called bumping. we are not talking about bumping birds here. bumping is where one dog follows another around and constantly makes physical contact, usually running into the lead dog at the shoulder. what is going on can either be a form of aggression, or just that the following dog has no clue the lead dog is trying to hunt, or what even hunting is. it is out there to play. so it is bumping the lead dog to get the lead dog's attention for some wrestlin, while the lead dog is trying to find birds. we see this a fair amount in untrained dogs with not much field exposure. i mention it because it is not just annoying, it is dangerous. have seen lead dogs do a slow boil, then a fight starts, or the lead dog makes a retrieve and the following dog wants to come in an play, something starts up, a hunter reaches in to quell the disturbance, and gets bit.
-
Wagonmaster
- GDF Junkie
- Posts: 3372
- Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2005 10:22 am
- Location: Minneapolis, MN
usually, in a field trial, a good dog will just outrun the bumper. but in the hunting field the dogs will be around each other alot, and there in lies the problem. it is not uncommon where one dog is not used to running in a brace. usually, the handler of the bumper is pretty inexperienced also, and just does not see the problem.
-
Greg Jennings
- GDF Junkie
- Posts: 5743
- Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2004 11:59 am
- Location: Springboro, OH
The kind of aggressive "tagging" that I previously referred to would be more accurately described as a particularly bad kind of "bumping".
When it happened to my V, who is a fairly soft dog, he shut down and it took me half the brace to get him running again.
Regards,
When it happened to my V, who is a fairly soft dog, he shut down and it took me half the brace to get him running again.
Regards,
FC Snips Spot-On Shooter SH
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=3149
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=3149
That sounds good to me. I've seen more tagging in HT vs FT. The HT I've done judges requested that you stay with the other handler and judges. NSTRA, you could just turn off and go your own way. HT's I've done also have a good bit of tight course. If your braced with a tagger/bumper, your sol... Hopefully if it caused a big deal, the judge would have the other dog picked up..???...
-
Wagonmaster
- GDF Junkie
- Posts: 3372
- Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2005 10:22 am
- Location: Minneapolis, MN
in a FT, the bumper will be picked up quickly. they usually get one for free, sometimes two if it not bad and just looks like normal jostling. the second or third bump the bumper will be ordered up. if the judges do not do it on their own initiative, the handler of the dog getting bumped will complain, and then the judges will do something. frankly, though, ft'rs train in braces, so they normally have this trained out before they ever get to a trial. not saying it does not happen, but usually with the younger dogs.
the tagger may be ordered up eventually, but dogs can only be order up for interfering with a bracemate. if the tagger does not overtly interfere, they will leave it down for awhile. here again, the problem is often self curing, because the independent dog will leave the tagger in its dust.
more common in disciplines where braces are not seen alot, or in the hunting field.
the tagger may be ordered up eventually, but dogs can only be order up for interfering with a bracemate. if the tagger does not overtly interfere, they will leave it down for awhile. here again, the problem is often self curing, because the independent dog will leave the tagger in its dust.
more common in disciplines where braces are not seen alot, or in the hunting field.
-
joeldavid
Thanks for the input. I had been holding off on starting any real training but the dogs seem ready for it. I've been taking both of them out and running one of them at a time so as to not have them tagging or bumping or any other kind of distracted thing. I have george hickox's video and like his methods, I also have a trainer lined up for later in the year maybe I can get him to go out with me and the dogs and see what he thinks.
-
statelyweims
- Rank: Just A Pup
- Posts: 9
- Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2005 6:35 am
- Location: Ohio
I would make sure you balance your training out. Spend just as much time with bird work/yard work as you do with household obedience.
The whole sit argument comes up with bird dogs, show dogs, you name it. Teach your dog how to learn and teach him well, and it won't matter.
My dog is now a show champion and has his CD & CDX in obedience and is training for a UD. I showed him in obedience on the same days as I showed him in the breed ring. NEVER EVER did he sit in the breed ring.
Actually, my bird work has really helped the obedience. In Utility there is an exercise called a moving stand that's very difficult for some dogs. All I have to do is start walking and when the judge signals it, I just say "whoa" and voila, its all good!
The only time obedience ever bit me in the field was when I raised a hand in the air to caution my dog to "whoa". This is the command for a drop to the ground. The dog had already locked up. He looked at me, cocked his head to the side and laid down without moving a foot. I said, uh, uh, and he rose back up without moving. A wee miscommunication that I smacked myself for!
In Master Hunter, I've used two obedience commands to really help. One is "mark", which helped get my dog throw a problem of blinking backs. The other one is "watch me" which I use when he's honoring.......if he's looking at me, he doesn't get a chance to mark the other dog's retrieve and stays much steadier on the honor.
You have to be a good trainer and balance the different types of training well, and if you are, you'll never have a problem with it.
Good luck!
MB
The whole sit argument comes up with bird dogs, show dogs, you name it. Teach your dog how to learn and teach him well, and it won't matter.
My dog is now a show champion and has his CD & CDX in obedience and is training for a UD. I showed him in obedience on the same days as I showed him in the breed ring. NEVER EVER did he sit in the breed ring.
Actually, my bird work has really helped the obedience. In Utility there is an exercise called a moving stand that's very difficult for some dogs. All I have to do is start walking and when the judge signals it, I just say "whoa" and voila, its all good!
The only time obedience ever bit me in the field was when I raised a hand in the air to caution my dog to "whoa". This is the command for a drop to the ground. The dog had already locked up. He looked at me, cocked his head to the side and laid down without moving a foot. I said, uh, uh, and he rose back up without moving. A wee miscommunication that I smacked myself for!
In Master Hunter, I've used two obedience commands to really help. One is "mark", which helped get my dog throw a problem of blinking backs. The other one is "watch me" which I use when he's honoring.......if he's looking at me, he doesn't get a chance to mark the other dog's retrieve and stays much steadier on the honor.
You have to be a good trainer and balance the different types of training well, and if you are, you'll never have a problem with it.
Good luck!
MB
-
Richard *UT*
- Rank: Master Hunter
- Posts: 212
- Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2005 7:28 pm
- Location: Kamas UT.
Stately, Sounds like you have some great dogs. Do you have a website? Are you a pro? I get from your name that they are Weims, where did you get them? Are they from your Kennel? Well I think that is enough questions 
Words that soak into your ears are whispered...not yelled
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=1618
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=1618
-
OhioOnPoint
- Rank: Senior Hunter
- Posts: 175
- Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2006 11:28 am
- Location: Toledo, Ohio
A dog that can 'SIT' on command is a gentleman, one that Can't is a bum.
If you train your dog properly, it will Whoa! staunchly and will never sit. Never let the dog get in the habit of sitting while pointing and you won't have any trouble.
For me, 'Sit' is a must know command no matter what type of dog you have or what reason you have it for. I guess everyone has an opinion.
If you train your dog properly, it will Whoa! staunchly and will never sit. Never let the dog get in the habit of sitting while pointing and you won't have any trouble.
For me, 'Sit' is a must know command no matter what type of dog you have or what reason you have it for. I guess everyone has an opinion.