Looking for NON-forced fetch tips

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mandrakeduck
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Looking for NON-forced fetch tips

Post by mandrakeduck » Tue Dec 08, 2009 11:37 pm

I have a six year GSP. She Points, Holds, Honor/backs... and will find a down bird... but not retrieve the birds. We can get her to retrieve for a few feet but she always is aggravated by the feathers and drops the bird and spits feathers. She'll retrieve anything I throw for her in the field. I've even taped a pheasant feathers to a pheasant dummie and she retrieves because the feathers do not shed.

In any event... I have another GSP female "Molly". Molly is 18 months. She exhibits the same behavior as my six year old GSP. Any ideas how to train her to retrieve w/o using a force fetch. The reason I don't want to force fetch is that I do not think I have the patients or time, and can't afford to send her to a trainer.

BTW... I've already thought about getting a lab to flush and fetch... but the wife would leave me if I get a 3rd dog :)

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snips
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Re: Looking for NON-forced fetch tips

Post by snips » Wed Dec 09, 2009 11:55 am

So, what if the Lab does not retrieve :roll:
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Calisdad
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Re: Looking for NON-forced fetch tips

Post by Calisdad » Wed Dec 09, 2009 2:43 pm

Whether you think you can or think you can't you're probably right on both counts. Don't give up until you try.

Hate to bring this up but what's the common denominator with both dogs? (No, it's not your wife.) :D

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Re: Looking for NON-forced fetch tips

Post by wems2371 » Wed Dec 09, 2009 3:54 pm

You could do a thorough course in "Hold", but that's going to take time and patience too. My 1st GSP Roxi has always been a retrieving nut, but I got her into having a bird in her mouth late. I didn't even have birds until she was 6-8 months old, and then the few I had were like gold, and just used for pointing work. So despite the fact that she would fetch a can of corn, car keys, and just about anything else.....she was finicky with birds like you describe. So basically I went through force fetch, without the pinch. Started on the whoa table with a retrieving buck, moved to bumper, and winged bumper, and frozen bird to live bird. Just as long a process (probably longer :roll: ), and it was followed up with a lot of yard work too, such as heeling with a bird and short retrieves working into longer ones. I don't know that there is any quick way to get good results, and think that you will have to set it up as a process, to where the dog knows the drill and exactly what is expected of her and is under your direct control (checkcord, tablework, hallway, etc) to back it up.

Now with my 7 month old pup, I started her carrying birds as a small pup. When I toss a fresh bird in the yard, sometimes she'll want to sniff it first, so to encourage a quick pick up with my "come" command--I'll tug on her checkcord. Her desire/prey drive to have the bird, causes her to grab it up quick, because she knows I'm going to reel her in at any moment.

I'm not sure what kind of bird you are starting her with, but I would avoid quail, as in my newbie experience they shed a lot of short downy feathers very easily.

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Re: Looking for NON-forced fetch tips

Post by gonehuntin' » Wed Dec 09, 2009 4:10 pm

I'll bet you're not letting your pups retrieve birds as pups.

You're in a real predicament here. You don't have the patience for a force program or a hold program, but you want the dog to retrieve. There is no other reliable way to do it. Got nothin' for ya.
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ckfowler
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Re: Looking for NON-forced fetch tips

Post by ckfowler » Thu Dec 10, 2009 7:17 am

My setter used to stop just out of reach, drop the bird and go back to hunting. Was fine for just hunting and dead birds but one still kicking or in trials and it just didn't work. I took a tip from waterfowlers who don't want their dog to stop at water's edge to shake and just moved away calling her on when she hit that spot and started to slow down. Do that for a season and you can graduate to just turning away when they are about to drop with encouragement to come the rest of the way. May take some excited encouragement and running from them at first but they catch on pretty quick.
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tailcrackin
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Re: Looking for NON-forced fetch tips

Post by tailcrackin » Thu Dec 10, 2009 9:07 pm

Colin, your advice is pretty sound, exactly what I was thinking. One of the biggest things that I come across, is people not wanting to allow the dogs to carry the items, this will benefit you in the retrieving world. Plus, I also want a check cord on the dog, so I can help steer it away from doing things I dont want on the return work. Thanks Jonesy
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Re: Thanks for all the advice

Post by mandrakeduck » Thu Dec 10, 2009 9:36 pm

Thanks for all your thought! Here are some responses

Personally, I think the common denominator between the two dogs is: 1. I did not force fetch them. 2. They UBBER hunting instinct but not strong retrieving instinct.

I'm going to give Colin's advice a try. If that does not work... I'll have my 17 year old try and force fetch the pup.

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tailcrackin
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Re: Looking for NON-forced fetch tips

Post by tailcrackin » Fri Dec 11, 2009 7:02 am

His advice is sound. What I am saying with the checkcord being on the dog, is that if he stops, while you are walking him with the rtrieve, you can tug a little, and he will step up to be with you, or you can help prevent him from stopping and farting around, those sort of things. Dog training with whatever style, and breed is timing, what you do, and when you do it. Your son doesnt have enough experience, and might cause things to blow real bad, actually make the dog start doing a whole lot of negatives twards the item being retrieved. Hope all goes well. Thanks Jonesy
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gonehuntin'
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Re: Thanks for all the advice

Post by gonehuntin' » Fri Dec 11, 2009 10:01 am

mandrakeduck wrote: .

If that does not work... I'll have my 17 year old try and force fetch the pup.
Now I'm confused. WHY would you have a 17 year old, notoriously short on patience, force fetch a dog knowing nothing of a force fetch program?

If you decide to do this, buy Evan Grahams Smart Fetch DVD before you pursue it.
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Re: 17 year old

Post by mandrakeduck » Fri Dec 11, 2009 1:44 pm

Now I'm confused. WHY would you have a 17 year old, notoriously short on patience, force fetch a dog knowing nothing of a force fetch program?
LOL! Many of you are not afraid to speak your mind.

Actually... he is very good with the dogs. He's been investigating Force Fetch Methods.

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Re: Looking for NON-forced fetch tips

Post by phermes1 » Fri Dec 11, 2009 2:58 pm

I have no personal experience with it, but I've heard of people getting good results out of clicker training. I believe George Hickox has integrated it into his program. No ear-pinch, toe-hitch, or any of the negative aspects of a typical force-fetch program are involved. Might be worth considering.
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mandrakeduck
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Re: Looking for NON-forced fetch tips

Post by mandrakeduck » Fri Dec 11, 2009 3:38 pm

IMO I think your 17 yr. old can get the FF done if he is level headed . This will be a learning experiance for him and will learn from mistakes made. We've all made them along the way. Good Luck.
Thanks for the encouragement with the 17 yr old. And thanks anyway for the discouragement with the 12 yr. old :D

Yes... we have made some mistakes along the way... but we are fortunate to have two GSP that have amazing hunting instincts. They both HOLD POINT and BACK.

Our young GSP "Molly" was EXCEPTIONALLY gunshy and field shy. At sun up on opening day last Sept. I had her on a check cord. I took her off the cord and said "Go find a bird!" She ran accross the road to a group of hunters that were getting out of their truck and she hid behind their legs! Well... I put her on a check cord and she proceeded to track and put up a Pheasant in 10 minutes. By mid-November she was totally acclimated. No gun or range shyness. Just a craze to find birds! We have one more hunt at the end of Dec.

Molly has not had much opportunity to try and retrieve because the older GSP Emma (7 yr old). Is dominant and usually gets to the bird first. My son once lost track of Emma... she emerged out from the brush at about 500 yd. with a pheasant in her mouth. She brought it all the way back and had to swim accross a 20 yrd canal! Go figure?
But when we shoot the bird Emma will go find the bird... MUNCH it tell it dies... and then move on to her next victim. I think she got spurred the first time she went after a crippled rooster and that led to the MUCHING.

Honestly... since Emma was the first dog we ever trained... we were elated just to see her point, hold, and find the dead bird. We worked on fetch in the the field as noted above. In hind sight... we should have persisted on the fetch.

Now with Molly- we want to teach her to fetch. This is especially true because we are hoping to use her in Duck hunting. Molly has consitently fetched a frozen chucker. Also... Molly is very adept at hunting heavy cover. She is bigger and slower than Emma... but can easily out hunt Emma in heavy cover.

Well... Thanks again. I welcome all suggestions

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Re: 17 year old

Post by gonehuntin' » Fri Dec 11, 2009 4:24 pm

mandrakeduck wrote:
Now I'm confused. WHY would you have a 17 year old, notoriously short on patience, force fetch a dog knowing nothing of a force fetch program?
LOL! Many of you are not afraid to speak your mind.

Actually... he is very good with the dogs. He's been investigating Force Fetch Methods.
There are people that are absolute naturals with dogs and those that aren't. I hope your son is one of the naturals. If you follow Evan's program, it's really not that hard. It takes twenty minutes a day and patience. The dvd is extremely thorough.
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mandrakeduck
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Re: Looking for NON-forced fetch tips

Post by mandrakeduck » Fri Dec 11, 2009 4:37 pm

The DVD suggestion is very helpful. Thanks for you help.

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texscala
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Re: Looking for NON-forced fetch tips

Post by texscala » Sat Dec 12, 2009 12:18 am

Give FF a try. I swore not to use an E collar or FF my pup but as time went on it became obvious both would be necessary. This last summer I FFd my little FB (she was 2) in the house while the kids were taking naps.

She went from picking up birds and walking a few steps before dropping them to this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hOk2nTrd1oA

and now this

http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v111/ ... 301554.flv

mandrakeduck
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Re: Texscala

Post by mandrakeduck » Sat Dec 12, 2009 2:58 am

Give FF a try. I swore not to use an E collar or FF my pup but as time went on it became obvious both would be necessary. This last summer I FFd my little FB (she was 2) in the house while the kids were taking naps
Cool vid and a beautiful Brit! What system of FF did you use?

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Re: Looking for NON-forced fetch tips

Post by mountaindogs » Sat Dec 12, 2009 9:08 am

Well, you maybe don't want my advice, but if you are actually interested in NOT force fetching try this book.
http://www.amazon.com/Positive-Gun-Dogs ... 639&sr=1-2

there is another book called the clicked retrieve, that I have not actually seen or read, but am looking to aquire and read it -- for my policy of know every method to choose the ones you do and don't like and broaden your bag of tricks for every dog.

Jim Berry is a retriever trainer that uses positive methods. Near as I can tell he trains gundogs but not trial or competition dogs. If that matters, to you. The misconception is that this is faster or easier. It is neither. It takes A LONG TIME to train this way, and can be just as challenging. It is more gentle on the dog, and easier for a novice to learn and not screw up, and basically gives a less than 100% retrieve. From my discussions with other trainers, it is great for dogs that have little issues like dropping to shake or rolling or hard mouth. It is tough for a dog that really doesn't "like" some aspect of retrieveing. If the feathers are truly distastful, it will be tough to use this. BUT if it is bordom, confidence issues or just slight hesitation, it could work. You can expect it to take months though. It is upbeat but not quick. I am working with a dog now, teaching with a different but still positive way. It's just as monotonous to me as FF, as the increments of improvment are so very slow at times, but the dog does stay happy and waggy and loves the game through the whole thing. But it lacks the "have to" that FF teaches. It's about choices and your willingness to keep at it. BOTH methods will require alot of patience and time. Sorry no shortcuts, really, if you want the best dog.

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Re: Looking for NON-forced fetch tips

Post by snips » Sat Dec 12, 2009 10:11 am

No to say the "have to" method does not produce upbeat happy dogs, because it very well can.
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mountaindogs
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Re: Looking for NON-forced fetch tips

Post by mountaindogs » Sat Dec 12, 2009 10:32 am

yes usually-nearly always both produce happy upbeat dogs as an end result.

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Re: Looking for NON-forced fetch tips

Post by ckfowler » Mon Dec 14, 2009 2:56 pm

Just gotta say I am psyched that Jonesy doesn't think my line of thought is crazy. Many good things said about Jonesy by dog people and I am but a little fish in that pond. I work with just my own dogs or alongside friends with theirs.

One of the benefits of owning a dog that is a companion first and hunting buddy next is that you can take your time fixing little things. If all the farther you get is her picking birds up this season, you just work from there over the summer or when it cools enough. You have another 10 years with her and if you ask it of her in the right way, I bets she picks it up just fine eventually. You will have great memories of problems and successes. Doesn't sound like she'll be kicked to the curb for not being perfect along the way and the journey is just as important.

Hope I catch the thread this time next year or whenever it happens when you post pics of her retrieving!
Colin

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Re: CKFOWLER

Post by mandrakeduck » Sun Dec 27, 2009 6:00 pm

CKFOWLER's suggestion worked. We began to walk away and got the dog to do a full retrieve! Very excellent!

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