is it better to ff before or after the dog is broke

sjkennels · Post by **sjkennels** » Fri Dec 18, 2009 7:48 pm

i have two short hairs i am going to start breaking after hunting season is over and i read something on here that said it is better to ff before breaking a dog is this true? either way i wanna ff both of them whats a good dvd to watch that shows it step by step on how to do it? i seen another post that someone said evean grahams smart fetch is a good one? i want to hopefully have them broke by the beginning of next hunting season. i dont know if it will help but heres a little about my dogs training so far.

my female is two years old and she is here broke, kennels, staunch on point, sometime retrieves, will collar condition when i start to finish her up, gun broke but had a problem with the gun but she is coming along great.

my male is 7 months old. working on here, points, shot over him a couple time

is it possible to have both dogs broke by the beginning of next hunting season?

snips · Post by **snips** » Fri Dec 18, 2009 7:51 pm

The 2 yr old wold be goo to start now..I would not consider the younger one at ths point.

myerstenn · Post by **myerstenn** » Sun Dec 20, 2009 5:42 am

my thoughts are,why waste the effort untill you determine that the dog is a keeper.

Post by **ezzy333** » Sun Dec 20, 2009 8:51 am

myerstenn wrote:my thoughts are,why waste the effort untill you determine that the dog is a keeper.

I think when most people buy a dog it is a keeper no matter how good it turns out. My thoughts would be that it improves the dog if it needs the training which depends on the dog and what you plan to do with the dog.

Ezzy

Calisdad · Post by **Calisdad** » Sun Dec 20, 2009 9:10 am

snips wrote:The 2 yr old wold be goo to start now..I would not consider the younger one at ths point.

Just wondering on the logic here. I suppose there could be some detriment but not sure what it could be.
Also if a dogs is an excellent retriever is FF training necessary?

TIA-

snips · Post by **snips** » Sun Dec 20, 2009 10:10 am

Logic is let the younger one grow up some before FFing. Older one is ready mentally. I do not like to FF pups, and 7 mo is still a pup in my book. I do not FF a dog that is a good natural retriever, I assume the owner knows whether they need it or not. Younger one may still come around to retrieving.

zzweims · Post by **zzweims** » Sun Dec 20, 2009 10:22 am

sjkennels wrote: gun broke but had a problem with the gun but she is coming along great.

If there is a problem with the gun, I'd get that issue cleared up completely before starting ff.

Aline
http://zzfarms.com

zzweims · Post by **zzweims** » Sun Dec 20, 2009 10:22 am

sjkennels wrote: gun broke but had a problem with the gun but she is coming along great.

If there is a problem with the gun, I'd get that issue cleared up completely before starting ff.

Aline
http://zzfarms.com

Rich Baker · Post by **Rich Baker** » Sun Dec 20, 2009 6:41 pm

snips wrote:. I do not FF a dog that is a good natural retriever.

Quick Question, so if you do not ff a natural retriever are you not missing one of the building blocks of building a solid gun dog? It is my understanding that it is or should be a requirement to ff to further support future issues that can arise. Could you please expand on how you over come this in your training program? I’m interested in learning all I can Thanks Rich

vzkennels · Post by **vzkennels** » Sun Dec 20, 2009 6:49 pm

I have owned GSPS for over 35 yrs been seriously breeding since 1994 I have never FF a dog yet.My dogs are all pretty much natural retrievers in fact have had a couple that live to retrieve it seems.That is they retrieve birds shot over them forget the dummies etc I don't shoot or hunt them.Most will also retrieve those as well but not all.I know there are those that believe everything should be FF & I understand there is more to it then Fetching but if a dog handles the pressure of being broke & retrieves naturally well I as one just don't see the need.

snips · Post by **snips** » Sun Dec 20, 2009 7:41 pm

Some people FF everything, I just do not see the need if they retrieve well.. If a retrieving issue comes up at a later date it can always be FFed at that time.

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Sun Dec 20, 2009 8:53 pm

Retriever trainers have been forcing labs at 6-8 months for 30 years. Pointing dog trainers are very slow to accept it. I don't do the pointers as young as I did labs. I like pointing dogs to be 10 months to a year. You will find that once they are obedience trained and forced, all training goes much easier. That's my opinion. Plus, the younger they are, the more tractable.

Understand that I say this believing it will be a gun dog and not a trial dog. I can see the wisdom in waiting longer on a trial dog and letting them develop more independence.

In a gun dog, it doesn't matter. Remove some independence now, it'll come back later.

3Britts · Post by **3Britts** » Mon Dec 21, 2009 8:22 am

I have to agree that if a dog is a good natural retreiving dog, ff is not necessary.

I would wait to ff your pup. Wait and see if the retreiving gene kicks in and go from there.

postoakshorthairs · Post by **postoakshorthairs** » Mon Dec 21, 2009 10:27 am

I'm not an NSTRA expert but if you have a dog that has had "a problem with the gun" I would be hesitant about putting her in a situation where there's gunfire in close proximity to her when she's not the one pointing/producing the birds.

As far as the 7 month old goes...is this the same one you have for sale? I'm not trying to be a wise a$$ but i'm confused.

vzkennels · Post by **vzkennels** » Mon Dec 21, 2009 6:06 pm

Ok so he quit retrieving now he can FF what's the big deal.Yesterday,Now,Tomorrow it's all the same as I see it FF is FF no matter when it's done.My avatar dog is a Field Trial dog with a pro she has never seen the first day of FF & all her points are Retrieving points & made some pretty difficult retrieves on her call backs.She excells at har call backs & makes most the others look sloppy why would I need to fool with that? Her handler says the first time she refuses she will be on the table,hasn't happened yet & she just turned 5,Been running trials since she was a derby.To each their own.

OBTW I have heard some trainers say there are no natural retrievers anymore.Wrong but how do they know if the dog is never given the chance & everything is FF.

vzkennels · Post by **vzkennels** » Mon Dec 21, 2009 8:09 pm

Howie I understand where you are coming from & have no problem with FF dogs but if I got a dog that does it like you are talking about then I'm happy.I know you think I'm full of S--t but my handler is also amazed with her retrieves.She has retrieved the head of a bird shot off in the call back before her then he sends her back for her bird,has ran up on top of boulders reached down between them to pick up & retrieve a bird,retrieved a bird that circled back from the spectators & killed a few ft behind her & runs them straight back.He Gr mother was a retrieving fool on birds shot over her I never saw another dog beat her to a retrieve & delivered straight to hand but if you through dummies for her she would look at you like your stupid.Oh & she never liked pigeons or planted birds with human scent all over them either.FF works I never said it didn't but there are natural retrieving dogs that do it just as well if not better.Most of the dogs Star competes against are FF as are most of the dogs on her trainers string & she still looks better then they do.You don't have to take my word ask a few that have seen my dogs retrieve body parts,from water,etc.

sjkennels · Post by **sjkennels** » Mon Dec 21, 2009 8:19 pm

zzweims wrote:
sjkennels wrote: gun broke but had a problem with the gun but she is coming along great.

If there is a problem with the gun, I'd get that issue cleared up completely before starting ff.

Aline
http://zzfarms.com

thanks for all of your answers. with the gun thing i found out these last two days guiding she does not have a gun problem anymore. i decided to use her to guide with for some hunters. they shot first at a bird about hundred yards from bella and i it scared me because i thought she might lay down. but to my surprise she took off and ran towards the shot looking for a bird. then on the morning hunt one of the hunters shot at a covey of quail and bella was about 35 yards from him and she took off looking for a dead bird again. so all is good i think.

i am going to train my female and my male both to run in nstra

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is it better to ff before or after the dog is broke

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