big running dog.... any ideas

cademan · Post by **cademan** » Mon Dec 28, 2009 10:16 pm

Hello everyone!.... my first time here and glad I found this forum.
I have a 5 month old EP, have introduced him to guns had him on a bunch of birds in the field and have been E collar conditioned and started Ecollar training. The question I have for you is when I take him to the field I always have him on a CC, If i ever ket him off of a CC he is in the next county!..I know he loves it in the field and have not put any pressure on him as far as keeping him close but was wondering how to gently work on his range without too much pressure right now in the field and how to ultimately keep him in range.. I am not a field trial guy and want dearly for him to hunt in range but dont know when or how exactly to start on keeping him in range.....I hope this makes sense, this is my first gundog to train and am sure enjoying it, but I want to do it right.

Post by **Sharon** » Mon Dec 28, 2009 11:15 pm

In the next county?? You have your work cut out for you. Don't plant birds more than 50 - 100 yards out there. He may figure out that the birds are close and stay in. I wouldn't use the collar to bring him in a but some might. You have to be very careful.
Maybe you should think about field trialing. It's great fun!

PS Did you buy this dog as a pup? Did you know he came from a big running line or is he just an anomoly?

hustonmc · Post by **hustonmc** » Mon Dec 28, 2009 11:35 pm

Why do you want him, "In range?" What do you call "In range?" I have an English Pointer my "range" is >1/4mile, I have lots of fun shooting a lot of birds over him. I ask this question with sarcasm because I see many people that don't realize the true purpose of having a dog that runs "out of the country". Yes you can bring a dog in to work cover <100yds as a good dog should work the cover, but I see a lot of people that want their pointing dog <40yds, if you are one of these handler, why?

natetnc · Post by **natetnc** » Tue Dec 29, 2009 8:42 am

your best bet is to get an astro or some type of tracking device. i think the astro would give you some idea of what your dog is up to and how far away your dog actually is, i think dogs are usually closer around than you think (on average).

hustonmc, i think range is a matter of personal preference. some people enjoy watching the dog work just as much as shooting the birds. as far as finding birds, there are a lot of variables that come into play. do ranging dogs have a better chance at finding birds than dogs that work an area thouroughly? i don't think anyone can honestly say that a ranging dog (>500yds) will always out perform a closer working dog (<200yds) as long as the dog is hunting and not hanging out with the handler. where the birds are few and far between i want a dog that will get out and find them. if i am hunting a small area i know holds birds or a larger area that has a healthy population i like a closer working dog.

3Britts · Post by **3Britts** » Tue Dec 29, 2009 9:05 am

I have to agree that if you want your dog to work closer to you, you need to plant birds within or around that range. Your dog will learn to look there first before ranging to find birds. I think that you will find that a good area working dog will find more birds than one that shoots past them. jmo. Your dog will learn to find and work birds with exposure, its always the best tool in training.

Good luck and post some pics when you get the time.

Ruffshooter · Post by **Ruffshooter** » Tue Dec 29, 2009 9:14 am

What kind of Country are you hunting?
What do you consider hunting range? In Ruff Grouse woods it would be from 50 to 150 yards, in the praries 1/4 mile,1/2 mile, 200 yards etc.
Birds close by will help him come in and hunt more ground near by, but when he figures out there are no birds near you he probablly and hopefully range out again looking for birds. Also teach him to hunt edges and cover, brush piles, ditches, briars, alders what ever is in your area that typically holds birds (by planting birds in this type of cover near by you. He will learn to recoginze this or other types of cover and go check them out, This will help make him more thorough which will take more time which kind of reduces his range. Kind of.

I do this with my Ruff dogs. Even when we do NSTRA stuff they always check out the brush, briars etc. (It has been a few years since running NSTRA).

Post by **topher40** » Tue Dec 29, 2009 9:18 am

I think its time to give up,

send the pup my way and I will see if I can turn him into anything. :roll:

Post by **slistoe** » Tue Dec 29, 2009 9:49 am

natetnc - there is an awful lot of country between 200 and 500 yards.

cademan - it has already been pointed out - "in the next county" is as vague as "in range". What is it you are expecting from the dog?

sharon - you are perpetuating the myth.

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Tue Dec 29, 2009 9:53 am

Personally, I would not want to shorten up a naturally big running dog. You would probably have to constantly hack at him, and it would not be fun for you or your dog.

He is only 5 mos. old right now, let him run and have fun. As he gets older, and with exposure, he will probably learn the proper range, depending on the type of terrain you are hunting. Spend plenty of time bonding with him, and he will always keep a check on where you are.

If you are intent on having a close working dog, you may want to choose a different breed or a dog out of a foot hunting blood line.

Charlie

gravedigger · Post by **gravedigger** » Tue Dec 29, 2009 10:26 am

if he's running big at 5 months wait until he is 1yr old.I say let him run and find birds.he will learn to hold his birds and it's less walking for you.However if you are inclined to keep him in,I would agree with the other folks plant birds close and after awhile he will get the idea.Sounds like you have a good one!Good luck-Shawn

natetnc · Post by **natetnc** » Tue Dec 29, 2009 10:46 am

slistoe wrote:natetnc - there is an awful lot of country between 200 and 500 yards.

why would you want to walk 500yds when you could walk 200yds. if you read my post it says that all ranges have their place, if i am hitting a high concentrated field then a dog pointing 500yds out wouldn't be optimal, i think you would get more points with less effort using a closer working dog. now if you are disputing my estimates of close working vs big running i am sure that will get as many replies as a "what food is best" thread. to make you happy i will just call the 200-500yd range medium

Post by **slistoe** » Tue Dec 29, 2009 11:35 am

natetnc wrote: why would you want to walk 500yds when you could walk 200yds.

Because there is a bird there??

natetnc wrote:if you read my post it says that all ranges have their place, if i am hitting a high concentrated field then a dog pointing 500yds out wouldn't be optimal, i think you would get more points with less effort using a closer working dog.

Yeah, and a 500 yard open country dog wouldn't be that far away in the concentrated cover if he was a bird dog. I have hunted with guys whose All Age Champions were more than capable of putting a mile of distance between us and them - don't recall ever having them further out than a couple of hundred where the cover was conducive to it.

natetnc wrote:now if you are disputing my estimates of close working vs big running i am sure that will get as many replies as a "what food is best" thread. to make you happy i will just call the 200-500yd range medium

That'll do.
In my experience most folks think a 200 yard dog is big running. By your definition there would be very, very few folks who truly own a big running dog. None of the dogs with Horseback Shooting Dog Champion in front of their name (won on a Prairie venue) would likely qualify.

Post by **ezzy333** » Tue Dec 29, 2009 11:53 am

You know there are not many places that I have seen in an upland field where you could see a dog at 500 yards and few where you would see them well at 200 yrds. I sure do enjoy watching a dog work and have no problem with range but see little value is having a dog hunt where it can not be seen or heard. If I was on the prairies, on a horse, with light cover, I sure would love to watch the dog work at those ranges but when most of our hunting is in 20 to 100 acre fields with cover that is 2 to 10 ft high a dog ranging 500 yards might as well be in the kennel.

Truth be told, range is something to argue over but that is about the only purpose I can see, since it will change for different conditions, different covers, and different purposes, and of course different people. And there is no right or wrong no matter how many opinions there are.

JMO
Ezzy

Post by **Sharon** » Tue Dec 29, 2009 11:57 am

slistoe wrote:natetnc - there is an awful lot of country between 200 and 500 yards.

cademan - it has already been pointed out - "in the next county" is as vague as "in range". What is it you are expecting from the dog?

sharon - you are perpetuating the myth.

What myth slistoe? I am always ready to learn.

natetnc · Post by **natetnc** » Tue Dec 29, 2009 12:24 pm

slistoe wrote:
natetnc wrote: why would you want to walk 500yds when you could walk 200yds.
Because there is a bird there??
natetnc wrote:if you read my post it says that all ranges have their place, if i am hitting a high concentrated field then a dog pointing 500yds out wouldn't be optimal, i think you would get more points with less effort using a closer working dog.
Yeah, and a 500 yard open country dog wouldn't be that far away in the concentrated cover if he was a bird dog. I have hunted with guys whose All Age Champions were more than capable of putting a mile of distance between us and them - don't recall ever having them further out than a couple of hundred where the cover was conducive to it.
natetnc wrote:now if you are disputing my estimates of close working vs big running i am sure that will get as many replies as a "what food is best" thread. to make you happy i will just call the 200-500yd range medium
That'll do.
In my experience most folks think a 200 yard dog is big running. By your definition there would be very, very few folks who truly own a big running dog. None of the dogs with Horseback Shooting Dog Champion in front of their name (won on a Prairie venue) would likely qualify.

i don't understand your answers.

the first question refered to a dog on point at 500yds vs 200yds, guess i didn't make it clear. which would you rather walk to?

you should have picked up on the second one if you read my first post. it had to do with a field you know should be highly concentrated in birds not cover.

the third just didn't make sense. in my first post i classified a big running dog as one who runs >500....... the > means greater than.

birddog1968 · Post by **birddog1968** » Tue Dec 29, 2009 12:30 pm

Whats this dog out of? wanna sell him

He will learn to adjust to the cover.....

Get him solid on the whistle and your golden.......I would go easy on a 5 month old tho....keep it light and fun and no collar stim around birds.

Post by **slistoe** » Tue Dec 29, 2009 1:21 pm

Sharon wrote:In the next county?? .....
Maybe you should think about field trialing.

This one.

Post by **Sharon** » Tue Dec 29, 2009 1:28 pm

LOL o-kay. I hear you.

Post by **slistoe** » Tue Dec 29, 2009 1:31 pm

natetnc wrote:
i don't understand your answers.

I'm sorry. I'll try again.

natetnc wrote:the first question refered to a dog on point at 500yds vs 200yds, guess i didn't make it clear. which would you rather walk to?

I'm not averse to walking wherever the dog has located birds. Either one will do.

natetnc wrote:you should have picked up on the second one if you read my first post. it had to do with a field you know should be highly concentrated in birds not cover.

My reply still holds. If you have a bird dog he won't be 500 yards away when a field is concentrated in birds. Get the video footage of the National at Ames when Dunn's Fearless Bud won it and watch where his handler gets off his horse and takes the dog bird hunting and cards some finds. Then there was the time at the Nat. Chicken Ch. that I watched a handler pull his dog in from a mile away to hunt "Chicken Alley" and card 3 finds before he collared him away and sent him forward again.

But as a handler, if you have a good, hard working, front running dog, you can easily push that dog right through a good field if you don't know what you are doing (or if you do know and choose to).

natetnc wrote:the third just didn't make sense. in my first post i classified a big running dog as one who runs >500....... the > means greater than.

What didn't make sense - that NONE of the Prairie Horseback Shooting Dog Champions would qualify for your definition of "big running"?

shume · Post by **shume** » Tue Dec 29, 2009 1:47 pm

In my opinion you will do a lot more unproductive walking with a dog that runs next to you vs. the dog that runs big. Why do all that walking when you have a dog that can cover that ground? I'll walk any distance any day if I know my dog is on a bird!

3Britts · Post by **3Britts** » Tue Dec 29, 2009 9:30 pm

shume wrote:In my opinion you will do a lot more unproductive walking with a dog that runs next to you vs. the dog that runs big. Why do all that walking when you have a dog that can cover that ground? I'll walk any distance any day if I know my dog is on a bird!

While at the same time many big running "bird dogs" will run past closer birds in favor of those birds farther out. Seen it many times.

Post by **slistoe** » Wed Dec 30, 2009 1:22 am

What I have seen many times is that when I keep walking the further out birds become close.

The other thing I have seen many times is dogs miss birds. Far out, close in, fast runners, slow walkers - they all miss birds. If they didn't there wouldn't be any birds to find come hunting season - the coyotes and fox would have them all. They have the same olfactory organs and a little more motivation I would figure.

So, if your dog finds you birds, be grateful. Wherever they be found.

Shadow · Post by **Shadow** » Wed Dec 30, 2009 8:16 am

slistoe wrote:What I have seen many times is that when I keep walking the further out birds become close.

The other thing I have seen many times is dogs miss birds. Far out, close in, fast runners, slow walkers - they all miss birds. If they didn't there wouldn't be any birds to find come hunting season - the coyotes and fox would have them all. They have the same olfactory organs and a little more motivation I would figure.

So, if your dog finds you birds, be grateful. Wherever they be found.

chuckling-

Ezzy- I don't even look at a 20-100 acre area- you'd find this country interesting- mile by mile field- go big boy- if he locks up 500 yards away I'm enjoying the walk
course it's nice while on that walk that one of my others might lock up- I sure wouldn't enjoy that walk for a rabbit

another interesting GPS track yesterday- my little female has wheels

natetnc · Post by **natetnc** » Wed Dec 30, 2009 8:27 am

slistoe wrote:What didn't make sense - that NONE of the Prairie Horseback Shooting Dog Champions would qualify for your definition of "big running"?

i thought that horseback FT champions really got out there? i don't have any experience with prairie horseback trials but from what i have heard they are usually out a ways..... i thought they would be farther than 500yds.

Post by **slistoe** » Wed Dec 30, 2009 9:21 am

natetnc wrote:
slistoe wrote:What didn't make sense - that NONE of the Prairie Horseback Shooting Dog Champions would qualify for your definition of "big running"?
i thought that horseback FT champions really got out there? i don't have any experience with prairie horseback trials but from what i have heard they are usually out a ways..... i thought they would be farther than 500yds.

They do. But 500 yards is a long ways. I'm not saying that a horseback Shooting Dog will never get 500 yards away, but as a general working distance - no. They aren't asked to go that far on a regular basis. The winners will make a 600 yard cut across barren ground to an obvious piece of cover, but many weekend dogs have trouble with a 400 yard cast at the travel speed of a trial. General range would be <300 yards in front of a horse.

Now if you are asking about All Age dogs the story will be different, but they are a pretty small subset of dogs even in the trailing world.

natetnc · Post by **natetnc** » Wed Dec 30, 2009 10:59 am

guess my thoughts were based on a small set of dogs i have hunted behind. the setter (horseback trial line) i consider big running is gone from the time she is told to hunt, you will see her from time to time but hardly ever is she closer than 300 for very long and a lot of the time she is out in the 500 range making runs into the 1000. sometimes cover will cut back the yards but not always. i thought this was the standard for trial lines.

Post by **ezzy333** » Wed Dec 30, 2009 11:42 am

natetnc wrote:guess my thoughts were based on a small set of dogs i have hunted behind. the setter (horseback trial line) i consider big running is gone from the time she is told to hunt, you will see her from time to time but hardly ever is she closer than 300 for very long and a lot of the time she is out in the 500 range making runs into the 1000. sometimes cover will cut back the yards but not always. i thought this was the standard for trial lines.

You do realize the distances you are talking is near a quarter of a mile ti almost 3/4 of a mile. Have no idea what kind of cover you are talking but it is darn hard to see a 20 to 25 inch dog in 20 inch cover when they are a 100 yards away. I am wondering if you aren't over judging the distance most dogs work. If the ground has any roll to it at all it would be impossible much of the time to see them.

Ezzy

Post by **slistoe** » Wed Dec 30, 2009 1:32 pm

I'm certainly open to someone with more experience to question my judgement on these dogs. I know there are quite a few of them on this board.

It could be as ezzy says and you are overestimating the range, or it could be that you have seen untrained, out of control, renegade dogs that aren't much use for hunting and aren't worth a tinkers darn as a field trial dog. Which is why I cautioned Sharon about perpetuating the myth. Every hunter that has a no good, bonehead run-off dog says "Too bad I didn't trial that dog". When the truth of the matter is it would be a waste of his time and his money.
If a dog won't hunt the cover, hunt hard, hunt smart, hunt forward, find birds and display manners it isn't going to win a trial in any format. If a dog won't hunt the cover, hunt hard, hunt smart, hunt forward, find birds and display some manners it isn't going to win favor in a hunting camp. If a dog can be trusted to do those things most hunters will quickly get over any "range" hang-ups they may have.

hustonmc · Post by **hustonmc** » Wed Dec 30, 2009 2:21 pm

natetnc · Post by **natetnc** » Wed Dec 30, 2009 3:33 pm

ezzy333 wrote:You do realize the distances you are talking is near a quarter of a mile ti almost 3/4 of a mile. Have no idea what kind of cover you are talking but it is darn hard to see a 20 to 25 inch dog in 20 inch cover when they are a 100 yards away. I am wondering if you aren't over judging the distance most dogs work. If the ground has any roll to it at all it would be impossible much of the time to see them.
Ezzy

it is a long way i know. unless the astro is over judging we should be right on. thats why i find enjoyment hunting with my closer working dogs, i get to actually see them work a lot of the time.

Post by **slistoe** » Wed Dec 30, 2009 4:57 pm

Well, since you have the Astro on him then you will know. Is he staying to the front and handling when you turn - hunting lines to the front again? Is he hitting most of the likely cover and working it from the downwind side giving it enough of a look to say it has been "covered"? Is he finding birds and holding them for the guns to arrive? Is he holding the pace throughout the hunt without letting down? Does he pick it up and push on harder when the guns do? Rarely under 500 and frequently at a 1000 or more - If he does all that and can hold it in front of a horse at 6 mph - there aren't many Prairie All Age Setters around.

3Britts · Post by **3Britts** » Wed Dec 30, 2009 5:43 pm

Well, as stimulating as this conversation has been, I think that I will get back to the original post.

There are several methods that you can use to train your ep to hunt within the range you deem apropriate. Most of these methods have been suggested throughout the thread. I would pick several and try each out, one at a time. Good luck to you and enjoy your pup.

Shadow · Post by **Shadow** » Wed Dec 30, 2009 7:15 pm

3Britts wrote:Well, as stimulating as this conversation has been, I think that I will get back to the original post.

There are several methods that you can use to train your ep to hunt within the range you deem apropriate. Most of these methods have been suggested throughout the thread. I would pick several and try each out, one at a time. Good luck to you and enjoy your pup.

cademan · Post by **cademan** » Wed Dec 30, 2009 8:36 pm

3Britts wrote:Well, as stimulating as this conversation has been, I think that I will get back to the original post.

There are several methods that you can use to train your ep to hunt within the range you deem apropriate. Most of these methods have been suggested throughout the thread. I would pick several and try each out, one at a time. Good luck to you and enjoy your pup.

Thanks!.... I appreciate the response, I live in New Mexico where it is wide open and sometimes cant even see a dog over 400 yds out if he is in thick CRP land. Again this is my first dog to train and am overly nervous about not doing him right, know what i mean?...I was just wondering If I should be starting now on his range or to kind of let it take care of itself... thanks again for the response everyone!

Post by **slistoe** » Wed Dec 30, 2009 11:48 pm

I would start in the yard with the CC and get the dog to pattern across the front of me. Get him paying attention to you and get him turning and moving across in front of you. Then when you get in the field leave him trail the CC and never walk him in a straight line. HI-HO him when he is moving out and move off another direction so he has to come across to get in front. Walk a while and turn him back. Don't give him time to get lined out to the next county. Don't hesitate to run down the CC if you need to - be persistent and run it down - no fuss, no hollering, just get the cord and force compliance. Once the dog is working well and you feel you can take the CC off run him another few weeks with it on. Then when you really, really know he is ready to take it off, run him a few more weeks with it on. If you start "testing" him by taking it off and putting it back on you WILL have a CC wise dog.

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Tue Jan 26, 2010 3:10 pm

cademan -

Scott has given you a workable way to handle your situation with your dog. Planting birds close will also tend to keep a dog in your immediate vicinity. I will suggest two other things you should probably work on, pretty much at the same time.

The first thIng I would work on is a very reliable "come". Alternatively, you could work on a getting a very reliable "whoa" command, but at five months, your dog is a little young for that I think. You could however, do some heel/whoa drills in the yard, just to get the dog thinking about keeping you and your needs uppermost in his mind.

Once the dog is working well with the checkcord, turning on command, occasionally with a pop of the checkcord, you might consider overlaying an E-collar and eventually replacing the CC with the e-collar.

The goal would be to have the dog running and hunting in the feld and when it approaches the outer edge of your comfort zone, signal the dog to turn and run laterally to you. If the dog blows off your signal, a tap with the e-collar should get him to turn. It is called "bending" the dog.

Eventually two things will happen, if you are patient, persistent and consistent in your turning(bending) drills. The dog will start anticipating your turn command and start turning by himself when he gets out to where he believes you wil signal him. By that time,the dog will, in all likelihood , have started standing its birds and waiting for you to get there.

The combination of the two things will allow you to trust the dog , even when it is out there a bit, because you will come to know: A) the dog will turn and come back for me and B) If he sticks a bird, he will hold it until I get there.

I would strongly suggest that you keep the dog on a relatively short string at this age, until you can instill some control. Do not be overly concerned about the dog finding birds and pointing. Pointers find birds. That is what they do. Pointers point. That is also what they do. You want the dog to find birdsand point them ...for YOU.

RayG

bwjohn · Post by **bwjohn** » Tue Jan 26, 2010 11:27 pm

I think that some have already stated this, but control is the best thing. Then it doesn't matter at what distance your dog is, you are nervous b/c you do not have control. Work on the here/come command until it is solid, just might save his life. Then work on directional commands wether you want to use a whistle or voice is up to you. But you have to have some way of directing the dog when he is away from you.

I do not have as much experience as a lot of people on here, but I have hunted with a couple of guys that just hacked there dog all day to hunt closer. And they spent more time doing that and running there dog back and forth and not hunting. Let the dog find his hunting range, get control of him and enjoy.

I do not know if anyone has said this or not, but if you do not like the run, you could have done a little home work when picking out the dog and possible went with another breed. EP's, I think that is what he/she was, are stereotypically the biggest running dogs. Not trying to be rude, and I do not know the circumstances under which you got the dog. But if you are nervous about the distance thing and EP may not have been the way to go.

Brandon

pinefall · Post by **pinefall** » Wed Jan 27, 2010 8:21 am

There's lots of good advice on this thread.

My general comment would be to pay attention to the dog's development. There is a point where pups can shift from genuine exploration to wahooing/forgetting who you are. The tracker helps me keep a sense of this. I find that as adolescence hits hard (which is usually a little older than your pup, maybe around 7-9 months for pointers), they stop "caring" as much about keeping track of their handler. So we spend a month or two on a check cord. That way, I don't have to hack or fight. Afterwards, their brains have grown up a bit and they are ready to handle the way I like (lightly).

I've found that newcomers to genuine bird dogs can get a bit worried about the scale of movement (range, speed), but if they are working in a safe large area like you are, it is really okay to relax and let the dog develop. If you are feeling the need for constant control, I'd be questioning whether the dog is at a stage that it needs structure (see above) or whether you are imposing your own ideas on the dog about how to hunt.

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Wed Jan 27, 2010 12:39 pm

cademan -

I want you to try something with your pup if you have the courage. I want you to take the pup out in a wide open, safe area, let the pup run ans when it is out as far as you want...call the pup in and then turn and walk slowly in the opposite direction. Call a few times as you walk away.

If the pup does not come to you, go back to your vehicle and wait.

My bet is that your pup will see you heading away and even though it wants to run, it will turn around and run past you so it can be in front of you. Might happen the first time and you might have to wait by the vehicle, but it will happen if the dog is any good.

Another thing you can do is to let the dog run in a strange place and then duck out of sight, remaining quiet. The pup(again, if it is any good at all) will almost certainly come back and start to look for you. Some dogs will get visibly panicky at the prospect of losing you.

Do either or both of these a few times and the dog will learn to keep track of you a little bit and you will come to know that the dog can find its way back to you, if and when it has a mind to.

I will relate a quick story.

A couple of months ago was running in a trial. It was an amateir all age event. I cut one dog loose and the last I saw of him, he was about 3/4 of a mile to the front as he disappeared over the rise. I continued to ride forward, singing relatively softly.

Just before the course turned 90 degrees, i turned my head in the driection that we would soon be going and began to sing, throwing my voice in the new line of travel. Before I got to the turn, In less than three minutes,the dog showed up...from the front...and then I was able to make the turn and we headed out together along the new line. He proceeded to hunt his way to the front and, after a find, disappeared to the front, only to reappear a few minutes late, rimming a field and then crossing in front of me.

The point of the story is that although I had absolutely no clue where the dog was a fair bit of the time... the dog knew exactly where I was...all of the time. I would be that yours does also. They are not lost, they are just doing what God and the breeder intended them to do.

The dog has no reason for concern as long as they know where you are and what you are doing. If you take that away from them, that tends to get their attention.

In over forty five years of running lunatics...I ain't lost one permanently yet. They come back for ya.

RayG

cademan · Post by **cademan** » Wed Jan 27, 2010 10:03 pm

Thank you everyone for the advice, I appreciate every bit. We have come along way since my last post. Ray you are right he knows where I am, and he is keeping better track of me, I have been doing as advised and Hi-hoing him and making him comply and keep a tab on me. I have just recentlty started on Whoa he knows what it means we are just getting more consistant. I am not as worried as I was before. I live in the land of GSP here in NM, but we (my dog and I) are getting more used to each other. I would not trade him for the world. He amazes me everytime I plant birds for him (how awesome his nose is and how quickly he catches on to what I am wanting him to do). Thanks again to everyone. I am glad to have found this forum, and as a "first timer" I will probably be asking alot of questions!.Thanks again