Bird Crazy Dog

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Tue Nov 29, 2005 11:21 am

I am new to the forum and maybe this has been discussed before.

I have a two year old brittany. You can whoa him in most any circumstance unless its around a bird. He will bark, jerk your arm off and get plain crazy. I have worked him quite a bit with a checkchord up close trying to settle him down but he still won't hold his birds. I have mainly used bobwhites and I know when he was around 6-8 months he caught a few in a field trial. This really increased his desire to hunt or rather take out birds. I have broke other brittanies with the method of repitition but this guy is tough. I have heard that using remote releases works well but have not purchased them yet. If anyone has an idea I would appreciate any input. Anyone seen training videos or other material out there with info on this, personal experience?? Thanks,

Post by **Greg Jennings** » Tue Nov 29, 2005 12:19 pm

I suggest searching the archives here for the relevant posts by "snips". Snips is Brenda Roe. She's a professional trainer.

The method she uses is effective, straight-forward and pretty easy on both dog and handler.

Best,

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Tue Nov 29, 2005 2:56 pm

Thanks Greg, I found some great info on the site by searching. Must have missed that earlier. Snips had some great advice!

I notice a few of you have been suggesting various videos. It sounds like the Perfection Kennels has more of the real life scenarios. Any input on this? I have only been training for a few years, learning from various people, reading what I can find and of course learning from mistakes. I would like to invest in some nice training videos that might help out with this scenario.

Great Forum!

Ryan · Post by **Ryan** » Tue Nov 29, 2005 5:37 pm

My setter used to be like that. Ny trick was i hid 3 birds in the same place. I wouls snap my lead on her and release the first bird. SHe would take off and jerk my arm. I would grab her by her tail and scruff and put her down roughly with a harsh "Whoa". Then I would fuss with her for a few minutes stacking her back up. I would release the second bird. Usually she would hold but if not I would repeat this.

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Tue Nov 29, 2005 6:17 pm

Thanks Ryan,

I will try the multiple bird idea. I have really tried not to do a whole lot of talking when whoa breaking my dogs. It seems to complicate the situation, at least that has been my interpretation. This dog knows what whoa is but I think has taken out too many birds and seems to think thats what he's supposed to do. I need to figure a way to change his thinking. I think he really needs to be calmed down around birds. But heck thats just my guess, I am not a pro.

Ryan · Post by **Ryan** » Tue Nov 29, 2005 6:20 pm

I like whoa after the dog busts. You could just rack him up again or when he busts scold with NO then stack him up and use good dog. We had brits run him hard for 45 minutes this seems to help alot.

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Tue Nov 29, 2005 6:39 pm

Roading him prior to the check chord work might really help with "calming" him down. I will try incorporating that into the training. Thanks.

Casper · Post by **Casper** » Tue Nov 29, 2005 11:23 pm

tell us more about what you do in training sessions. Are you shooting birds each time out?

I am dealing with a very high prey drive GSP that will not stand his birds. From all I have learned is that it will only be a matter of time before he will figure out he cannot catch birds.

Pigeons and launchers and/or wild birds are the key to pup learning that he cannot catch them. That and time. If you dont have either than with the help of an assistant you can make him stand his birds and have a helper put the bird in the air. I tryed to find the way it was described to me but couldnt if you like send me a PM and I will describe it to you as it was to me.

Ryan · Post by **Ryan** » Tue Nov 29, 2005 11:26 pm

Only shoot birds when your dog has preformed corectly never shoot a bird if the dog hasnt preformed right.

Post by **Greg Jennings** » Wed Nov 30, 2005 7:53 am

I really like using pigeons in remote launchers.

I'm not a big fan of stopping dogs with the CC into a point or verbally whoa-ing them into a point. I feel like it hurts intensity.

Read Brenda's "snips" posts about what she does. It's easy on you and the dog. It makes sense.

If you need more thoughts, read Maurice Lindley's "Maurice" posts here and on the West-Gibbons Yahoo group.

Getting a dog steady to the flush isn't a big deal. Keeping them steady through flush, shot, and drop till you release them is another matter entirely.

Best regards,

Post by **Greg Jennings** » Wed Nov 30, 2005 8:06 am

Scott wrote:Thanks Greg, I found some great info on the site by searching. Must have missed that earlier. Snips had some great advice!

I notice a few of you have been suggesting various videos. It sounds like the Perfection Kennels has more of the real life scenarios. Any input on this? I have only been training for a few years, learning from various people, reading what I can find and of course learning from mistakes. I would like to invest in some nice training videos that might help out with this scenario.

Great Forum!

Hi Scott,

I have Perfect Start and Perfect Finish. I like them. One thing about it, is that you NEED Perfect Start in order to understand Perfect Finish.

If you're only interested in hunting or in trialing formats that only require steady to the flush, you only need Perfect Start anyway.

I also like Sherry Ray Ebert's "Training Setters and Continential Breeds". It's a different approach.

I've learned more, however, by hanging out with Rick and Brenda than anything else. There is just something about being right there, seeing mistakes and how to recover, etc. that makes a big difference.

Best,

snips · Post by **snips** » Wed Nov 30, 2005 8:30 am

I agree with Casper on all your options. I will try about everything to bring out the natural point in a dog. Some just don`t hav it, and in those dogs I have done a "trained point" but prefer to bring it out in other ways. "Teaching " a dog to point can result in some loosness, a dog can also get his intensity after he knows what you want, but you are always taking a chance on that.....

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Wed Nov 30, 2005 2:14 pm

Casper,

As of late I have been training with Bobwhites. I have not been shooting the birds for him, it seems to really make the prey drive go up. So I have not been doing that. He is anything but gunshy so I wasnt worried about that. I thought I would take a step back and get him to point his birds without the shot then go back to shooting. As for the birds I usually plant them, which sometimes causes a more stressful situation as liberated birds don't always fly that well and often times will walk around a bit before flushing, this drives him over the edge. When he gets wild, barks etc. I have tried verbally scolding him but it really doesnt do any good. I have learned that the less talking I do in training the better. So I have really tried to get the dog to just settle down by holding him with one hand on the collar and the other on his mid section after checkchording him into a bird.

I might also add that the dog doesnt seem to have any problem finding birds, he just doesnt want to point them once he locates them. Maybe I am putting to much pressure on him somehow?

I am very interested in using the releases along with pigeons to help develop his knowledge so that he understands he's not going to catch the birds. I would like to develop his natural pointing abilities.

I plan on trialing the dog as well as hunting him.

Casper · Post by **Casper** » Wed Nov 30, 2005 9:13 pm

If I am reading this right you have shot birds for pup previosly. Am I right?

What I have dont with my dog when I realized the reason he didnt point and stand birds was I did spend a fortune on remote launchers :roll: and started to catch wild pigeons. I set the launchers out about 50-100 yrds apart. I would check cord him into the bird at an angle so when he hit the scent cone he would have to turn fairly sharp to face the direction of the wind. At the moment he hit the scent cone he would point. This was difficult at times because the evening winds thermaled so bad that my approch would be different from the time I set out the launchers and it didnt always go so smooth but I made do.

With the head tucked birds pup can also scent track you that could be a part of him not pointing because he knows it is there he just has to follow your scent till he finds the bird you put in the grass. (just a guess)

If your not already I would say join a club near you or get together with one of the other AZ guys on here they might have the ability to help you.

I hope I am being of some help :dontknow:

ohiogsp · Post by **ohiogsp** » Wed Nov 30, 2005 10:21 pm

You will have to teach the dog it can't catch birds. Casper is on the money with the launchers (if you have them). What I do is plant really good flying homers/wild pigeons. Birds that your dog can't catch. Bring my dog in on a checkcord stop it when it gets the scent. Then have an assistant wake that bird up but don't flush. Make sure you are in fairly low grass. If your dog wants to go in on that bird let it. It can't catch it. Let it flush over and over stop it after the flush. If you stop after the flush it won't be fun for your dog to flush it. A very stylish point will be the result because you had nothing to do with it. Oh, the grass hight is critical because if it is too high the birds wings will hit weeds and not be able to flush fast.

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Thu Dec 01, 2005 11:14 am

Casper,

Your correct I had been shooting birds for him.

My previous dogs I have trained with wild pigeons and your absolutely right it worked great! I have pretty much an unlimited amount of wild pigeons here in Tucson and better yet they are free. The only reason I had switched to using the bobwhites was that is what is used in field trials so I thought it would be better to have the dog learn to search for bobwhites. Thinking back on it, I have used both with my other brittany and it didnt matter a bit to her. I will order a couple remote launchers and start working with him in that fashion.

I noticed the article about building your own remote launcher. Has anyone done this? It looks pretty simple. What kind of range can I expect. It also seems that you could have as many launchers as the radio has channels?? Hope I am correct on that. If anyone has built these, did any of the particular manual launchers work better than others? I know Lion Country offers 3 or 4 different brands including their own. Any input on a manual launcher brand. I thought I would try this route first, sounds like a fun project.

Post by **Greg Jennings** » Thu Dec 01, 2005 1:20 pm

Scott,

You might look through some of my earlier posts on when to use what bird. Basically, quail to "imprint" the dog very early. Then "maturation" phase of letting dog explore its world and learn to hunt for birds. When dog is about a year old, (older in your case), use pigeons in launchers till dog is honest on birds, then switch to quail for remainder of training. The quail are better at keeping dogs' intensity and interest.

I've built the home-made launchers. It was easy for me and worked well. I suggest buying an inexpensive multi-meter if you go that route. The tricky part was getting the trigger crisp enough so that when you pressed the button, it launched *RIGHT THEN*. The worst thing that can happen is a slow release when the dog charges the launcher. They can catch the arms of the launcher in the face and cause you no end of problems.

Regards,

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Thu Dec 01, 2005 4:49 pm

Finally got a picture up of my Brit when he was a year old. Pointing some chucker. This is the same dog that I am having a problem getting to point now. You would never believe it from the picture. Since this picture he has caught a few bobwhites. Back to the pigeons. He sure is an intense guy. Hope I get MY problem worked out.

Thanks again for all the advise.

mountaindogs · Post by **mountaindogs** » Sat Dec 03, 2005 7:09 pm

snips wrote:I will try about everything to bring out the natural point in a dog. Some just don`t hav it, and in those dogs I have done a "trained point" but prefer to bring it out in other ways. "Teaching " a dog to point can result in some loosness, a dog can also get his intensity after he knows what you want, but you are always taking a chance on that.....

What are some of the things you all have tried to bring out a natural point? When a dog is really birdy like this with stronger chase/flush desire than point?

ohiogsp · Post by **ohiogsp** » Sun Dec 04, 2005 9:22 am

You will have to teach the dog it can't catch birds. What I do is plant really good flying homers/wild pigeons. Birds that your dog can't catch. Bring my dog in on a checkcord stop it when it gets the scent. Then have an assistant wake that bird up but don't flush. Make sure you are in fairly low grass. If your dog wants to go in on that bird let it. It can't catch it. Let it flush over and over stop it after the flush. If you stop after the flush it won't be fun for your dog to flush it and chase it. A very stylish point will be the result and you had nothing to do with it. Oh, the grass height is critical because if it is too high the birds wings will hit weeds and not be able to flush fast.

Brenda, This is what I do. I also used remote launchers after the dog is pointing on the checkcord. I tried a manual launchers once and would never use one again. Now this is my opinion and others may have different ones, you should never alow a dog that is not pointing to chase birds or be shooting birds over a dog that is not standing without a checkcord. If you are not going to STW&S that is fine but make sure the dog is steady to the flush/shot. People get excited about getting a dog and want to shoot birds and stuff before it is time. Then you have something to undo witch is alot always alot harder. I know this because I have done it. I don't anymore and training seems to be so easy now. Brenda do people bring your dogs back to you after they have been hunting them or trying to train them themselves? I alow people who have bought my pups to come to my grounds and I help them to train their dogs. Just show them what to work on. The thing is they don't always do what I say or do other things. I do not train dogs professionally because I have no place to house them. One thing I think is wierd is how few people bring their dogs back for free training advise.

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Wed Dec 14, 2005 11:22 am

This weekend was great weather here in Tucson, Az so I headed out for a afternoon of training. The area I was hunting had Gambel quail, small coveys buy lots of them. I thought this would be a great opportunity to take my Brit out and run him on some wild birds. It was a great experience for both of us. The first covey of birds 8-10 he pointed, broke and chased! While he was off chasing a single broke and I shot it. I was frustrated he was still chasing but didnt say anything. When he heard the shot he was running back to where I was looking for what ever it was I was shooting at. I called him to me settled him down a bit gave him the whoa command for about 30 seconds or so and released him. I knew that there were 2 more birds in the prickly pear cactus that had not flushed yet. So when he started back to where the original covey had been and he pointed then broke again and flushed the 2 birds that had been holding tight. He didnt chase those birds more than I would say 30 yards then went back to hunting. We came onto 3 more covey's in the hour and a half we were there and he chased shorter and shorter each time then went back to hunting out front. He was nearly standing his birds by the end of one and a half hour of training. Of course I was not putting any pressure on him. By not putting any pressure on him I mean I wasnt walking up to him when he pointed. I just stood and watched his reactions. I wanted him to see what the response would be if he flushed the birds. It seemed to work well. Any comments on this? You all see anything that I am doing that might confuse him?

This weekend was really odd because typically the Gambel quail will run on you and not hold. So hopefully this area will produce a couple more days of good training and maybe I will get to actually shoot a bird for him if he will hold his point.

Oh, and I might add that towards the end we had a big owl take off from a low tree that neither my dog or I saw. He stopped in his tracks until I gave him a tap on the back of the head to release him.

It was great to see such an improvement on wild birds. Hopefully he will react the same on pigeons and then the bobwhites!

NDBDHunter · Post by **NDBDHunter** » Wed Dec 14, 2005 1:53 pm

The current Gun Dog Mag has an artical about training pointers. One of the pro's that they interviewed used an e-collar and everytime the dog would flush the bird the handler would give very low stimulus. Not continuos but just nicks until the dog stopped chasing. I've also tried this. (Very Sceptically) A pro trainer that I know also told me about this method. I tried it because my dog would enthusiasticly chase up birds. I was training on wild birds and did not have access to domestic or training birds. My pup was over a year old, very soft and did not like to be handled while being whoa'd, she had also been conditioned to e-collars. After about 5 or 6 times of me applying very low nicks of electricity my dog started pointing them. Generally, She points her birds from a good distance, waits to let me flush and as a by product she's steady to flush, as in it if she runs the bird up by accident without ever smelling it, she'll stop and stand there until I release her. BUT THERE ARE TIMES...... Which works out very well when hunting sharptails when late rising singles are the norm. So this method has worked for me.

Tom

snips · Post by **snips** » Wed Dec 14, 2005 9:52 pm

Ditto on that....

Casper · Post by **Casper** » Wed Dec 14, 2005 11:44 pm

Brenda since you are familiar with using the e-collar for taking away the chase. Have you seen a difference in the way the dog hunts afterwords from having pups chase taken away. Something along the lines of losing some run from a big running dog or approching birds with too much caution or at the worst blinking?

Scott it seems like your dog is getting it a whole lot faster than my GSP is. You could probaly benefit from leaving the gun in the truck until he stands his birds till you can walk up to him. You want him to be reliable. But if you feal he has done everything right to your satisfaction than there is probaly no harm in shooting birds that he pointed. You realy only want to do it when your pup "has done it right"

snips · Post by **snips** » Thu Dec 15, 2005 9:14 am

I know that discouraging the chase will encourage the point. Whether you do it with a CC or an ECollar. I prefer training this with a CC then back it up with an E. For a dog heck-bent on the chase I don`t see it hurting a bit if done as posted before. I have done this on young dogs that were heck bent on chase and seen them start pointing, allow me flush and watch the bird fly off, with no training. That is low level nicks until he stops and comes off. We are not saying you hit them as in deer breaking. IMO, there is nothing worse than have your dog blow thru a pointed covey because he takes off chasing after the initial birds get up. If he remains standing then you have a great chance of getting there in time to get a shot. Anyone that hunts knows many times the birds are flighty and can and will get up wild with no pressure. Also, if your dog takes off after a wild flush you have no chance of working the singles, as he`ll push them out of the country. So having your dog trained to stand when birds fly is truely an asset.

NDBDHunter · Post by **NDBDHunter** » Thu Dec 15, 2005 10:19 am

"Have you seen a difference in the way the dog hunts afterwords from having pups chase taken away. Something along the lines of losing some run from a big running dog or approching birds with too much caution or at the worst blinking? "

I did notice that my dog was cautious afterwards. It didn't effect her run though. After she got the idea to point I stopped with the e-collar. If she busted birds (which doesn't happen often) I don't shoot and pick her up and put her on whoa at the scene of the crime. She's getting the picture, because purposely flushing birds doesn't happen (Very Often) and as time went by she's regained her confidence. Being cautious on grouse is a good thing. But not so cautious that she would loose her style.

The last time she flushed was when 15 or so Pheasants were running in front of her. She just couldn't help herself. I believe it was just too much temptation with all that scent.

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Thu Dec 15, 2005 6:30 pm

I plan on heading out tomorrow. I will leave the shotgun at home. Just work on him. Just upgraded from the sport 50 to a new TT G2 90 dual dog that has a nick mode. I will work with him a bit to see how he does on his own before trying that. Great system!!

Any insight as to how he will transition back to the bobwhites after wild birds? I have heard of dogs distinguishing between wild birds and pen birds. I want him steady on the pen birds as well. I plan on competing him in field trials.

I have pigeons as well as bobwhites any thoughts on transitioning him back to the bobwhites? Will he know the difference? Once he gets steady again should I go back to pigeons then bobwhites?

I was really surprised what a difference training with wild quail made. I have never tried it that way. Lots of opportunity for that here this year. I am definitely going to pursue this avenue. He had MUCH more style on point. Always gets me excited to see a young dog starting to point, some people don't understand that and laugh but thats the way it is!

snips · Post by **snips** » Thu Dec 15, 2005 11:18 pm

I like to use pigeons for the initial steadying process, when the dog shows he is understanding everything will switch to quail and not go back. I don`t like to go back and forth between pigeons and quail.

tailcrackin · Post by **tailcrackin** » Sun Dec 18, 2005 8:56 pm

Hi my name is Dave Jones, I own Jonesy's Gun Dogs, in Berea, Kentucky, I train all breed bird dogs and retrievers. I also fix dogs that have gotten boogered up in training. What it sounds like needs to be done is to teach the dog to just stop and stand. When a dog comes here to be worked, I will teach to stop and stand in the field. My goal is to get the dog to where, when I nick with the e-collar, it stops and stands. Then when you use the nick on the chase, it has nothing to do with the bird, it has the foundation built through repitition to stop and stand, you follow?? The bird launchers are used through out this process also, I have changed my springs so the bird is more natural on the release, not slingshoted. Usually takes around 3 mo. to make dog steady to wing, and or shot. Most gun dogs are steady to wing, that way the retrieve can be encouraged. With this style of training, I don't mess with the barrel, and whoa post, or the 2x6 table, I feel waste of time. With this, there is no need to tell the dog whoa, just an abused word. If it bumps the bird, fine, make the correction during the chase. When it leaves here, it will know what to do, and not to do. Now i won't garuntee that it won't test the water when it gets home, but you make the correction, it realizes, mom or dad knows the rules. Understand?? If not i can retype and explain differently, or feel free to call 859-985-2918, or another e-mail is jonesy68@alltel.net Thanks you guys pleasure being on this site, Thanks Jonesy

Post by **ezzy333** » Sun Dec 18, 2005 11:01 pm

You say you teach to stop and stand but don't use the command whoa. What do you use?

Ezzy

tailcrackin · Post by **tailcrackin** » Mon Dec 19, 2005 11:59 pm

With the association of stop and stand, it is another version of whoa, without words. When you have done th estop an dstand correctly, you can stp the dog with a low nick, once the dog stops it is showing you that it understands the nick and the association, to stop and stand. So the nick basically will work for the stop and stand with the birds. Meaning, when you get the dog to stop with the nick, you work on the bird, when bird gets up reassociate the stop and stand when the bird is in the air. We are teaching so you back step a touch and re que the dog what and why, as it progresses, when the bird gets up, dog chases, nick, until it stops. soon as it stops walk out front simulate the flush, and tap on, through repitition, it all over lays. Lot of typing, feel free to call, lot easier to explain and answer questions. I can have a dog ballpark 3mo. depending on its age and maturity. Standing to flush, sometimes 4, most of the time 3. Thanks Jonesy 859-985-2918

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Thu Dec 29, 2005 4:37 pm

Christmas break has given me the chance to really work with my dog. We have been out working Gambels 5 or 6 times in the last 2 weeks. What a difference working him on wild birds has made! The first thing I have done on my part is leave the shotgun home. Its too tempting to want to take it out and shoot birds.

It didnt take long and he was pointing the birds then creeping and busting them. But learning quickly. He is really pointing nicely, not for a long time, well not at first but we are getting there, he is very intense. What I have done is let him run to find out for himself he is not going to catch the birds. As soon as he chases I call him back if he is not responsive I have bumped him with the ecollar on the lowest setting it has. It seemed like he figured out real quick that it just wasnt fun to chase the birds what ever the scenario. Now after he points I have been giving him the whoa command, he knows the command very well. He actually held a point through the flush on Monday!! Couldnt believe it! Thought I grabbed the wrong dog or something.

Like I said before he is really coming along, amazing what the wild birds have done. He is anything but broke, but it makes me feel better that we are finally making progress.

It was really getting frustrating to me that it wasnt all coming together with him. Honestly I think a couple of things were happening.

1) I was shooting birds for him too early, creating way to much excitement for him to focus on the task at hand.
2) He knew he could catch the pen raised birds, I created a real problem there.

3) Not enough time on my part for sure. I have been putting in a few minutes every evening in the yard working with him on whoa and come, it really has refined the way he responds to those two commands in particular out in the field. Still can't believe he held through flush after what we went through!

Overall I think we are getting back on track. It sure does get frustrating at times. Someone once told me that a bird dog is born knowing more about hunting than most hunters will ever know, you just have to bring it out in them. I am really sold on the wild birds aiding with this. I broke my other brittany primarily on pigeons and that worked great too.

Thanks again for all the posts and comments.

This is a great site, full of lots of info. We are building a couple launchers as I write this, another example of a great idea!

tailcrackin · Post by **tailcrackin** » Thu Dec 29, 2005 5:58 pm

Hey Scott why you telling him whoa?? No lets think in the dogs mind......... if I just stand here, dad will come up with out saying nothing, and get these birds out of here, and that is lotsa fun, but if I start to do it myself, dad's hollering at me, and I am starting to get frazzelled cause I don't know what to do, dads, getting excited and hollering something, I want to get these, but dads hollering something at me......ugh don't know what to do, screw it I am gonna get them. Kinda out there, but you see where I am goin?? Do your yard work more in the field, because that is where it is mostly gonna be used. And teach the dog to stop and stand, do a little tug with the check cord to be his que to stop and stand. Get your timing right, and associate the e-collar with the tug, and in few weeks, he'll be stoppnig with light nick. Which overlays into birds, to him the nick means stop and stand. Nothing at all to do with the birds, so he wants to bump later, let him, don't say a word, make the correction with the birds in the air, as he is chasing, nick shortly on continuos, so you control the time it is used, so you can have light collar heat but longer nick, than programed. Beforeyou know it dog is right, and you are saying nothing. Makes life alot simpler. Why say whoa, dog knows what and why. Make sense?? Thanks Jonesy if I lost ya, no biggie, i'll help ya.